Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp

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Boyracer

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Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2008, 10:52:22 AM »
Quote from: halcron;55459
I am curious about how you are getting 35mm valves for the M42. Cause I remember reading from another thread that M62 valves are 35mm but shorter in length, thus it won't fit.


Yes M62 valves are few mm's shorter than M42 valves...

There are few main concerns and possible solutions:

1. Valve springs. They need suitable installed height to have right amount of seat pressure. Also, coil bind must be avoided (situation where spring is compressed so much its coils touch eachother and spring becomes solid). When valve is shorter, spring plate at the end of valve is closer to cylinder head causing spring to be shorter than normal, causing higher seat pressure (well, harder to have leaks which is good but also higher stresses on valve) and smaller lift before coil bind occurs.

- Aftermarket springs with different lenght etc could be fitted
- Cylinder head could be machined so that springs will be located same amount deeper in cylinder head than valves are shorter
- Different spring plates

2. Lifter / camshaft clearance. When valves are say 2 mm shorter lifters will be 2 mm deeper in the cylinder head. Hydraulic lifter *might* be able to adjust that away but many agressive camshafts also have smaller base profile so the difference might be 5 mm and that will not be adjusted automatically away. With solid lifters you need to adjust the difference away by using shims.

- Really only one solution here... Solid lifters with sufficient shim adjustment range.

romkasponka

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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2008, 11:01:11 AM »
Quote from: Boyracer;55463
- Really only one solution here... Solid lifters with sufficient shim adjustment range.


Do you know where to get them?
E30 318is M42
E36 318is M44

Boyracer

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Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2008, 01:20:20 PM »
http://www.rosten-performance.com/

They are for VW but lifter diameter is 35 mm and VW lightweight hydraulic lifters can be used on M42 so...

I just need to find out if the stud height inside the lifter is ok with shorter M62 valves. I guess the stud cam be ground down a bit. Shims have thickness of 3 mm and they are used to finetune the valve clearance.

Those are 14€ each which is about 1/4th of what Dbilas asks :eek:

halcron

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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2008, 08:24:48 PM »
Quote from: Boyracer;55463
Yes M62 valves are few mm's shorter than M42 valves...

There are few main concerns and possible solutions:

1. Valve springs. They need suitable installed height to have right amount of seat pressure. Also, coil bind must be avoided (situation where spring is compressed so much its coils touch eachother and spring becomes solid). When valve is shorter, spring plate at the end of valve is closer to cylinder head causing spring to be shorter than normal, causing higher seat pressure (well, harder to have leaks which is good but also higher stresses on valve) and smaller lift before coil bind occurs.

- Aftermarket springs with different lenght etc could be fitted
- Cylinder head could be machined so that springs will be located same amount deeper in cylinder head than valves are shorter
- Different spring plates

2. Lifter / camshaft clearance. When valves are say 2 mm shorter lifters will be 2 mm deeper in the cylinder head. Hydraulic lifter *might* be able to adjust that away but many agressive camshafts also have smaller base profile so the difference might be 5 mm and that will not be adjusted automatically away. With solid lifters you need to adjust the difference away by using shims.

- Really only one solution here... Solid lifters with sufficient shim adjustment range.


Thanks for the explaination. I am very keen to convert my intake to 35mm valves as well. Do let us know your results.

Btw, one more thing. How about exhaust valve? Any plans to convert them to larger ones as well? Say 32mm ones which is the same as S42?

Thanks!

nuvolarossa

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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 01:17:39 AM »
s50b32 and s54 uses 35mm intake / 30,5mm exhaust valves ;)
what is their lenght (intake)?

Boyracer

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Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2008, 02:37:47 AM »
Quote from: nuvolarossa;55495
s50b32 and s54 uses 35mm intake / 30,5mm exhaust valves ;)
what is their lenght (intake)?


http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5551

From left:

M62B44 35 mm / 6 mm
M42B18 33 mm / 6 mm
S50B30 34 mm / 7 mm





Good luck fitting S50B30 valves to M42 :D

No idea about S54 or S65 valves unfortunately. Might buy one of each for measurements, they seem to be some 15€ / each.

nuvolarossa

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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2008, 03:29:07 AM »
I was speaking of s50b32, they are 6mm stems, but specs for euro ///M cars are near impossible to know without buy them :(
I'll keep searching...

mkodama

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« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2008, 03:58:11 AM »
Quote from: nuvolarossa;55503
I was speaking of s50b32, they are 6mm stems, but specs for euro ///M cars are near impossible to know without buy them :(
I'll keep searching...


I think the problem is less of the stem diameter of the S50 valves, but more of a length issue.  They are just huge valves in every dimension!

If you do come across any resources, I'd be appreciative if you see valve lengths of any of these engines: http://www.m42club.com/forums/showpost.php?p=51188&postcount=36

Boyracer

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« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2008, 07:42:02 AM »
I just ordered some parts, on the list was these:

2008 E92 M3 S65 Intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 838 293
diameter: 35.7 mm
stem: 4.97 mm
weight: 43 gram
cost: 15.00 euro

2005 E60 M5 S85 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 833 775
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 4.97 mm
weight: 36 gram
cost: 16.40 euro

2004 E60 545i N62 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 541 555
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 4.92 mm
weight: 42 gram
cost: 13.70 euro

So after that we should have some solid data on those valves. I did not order any 6 mm valve stem parts because I think we already know the closest 35 mm valve there is (M62B44). If there are suitable 5 mm stem valves, then I need to find out if I can find suitable valve guides too.

Earlier today I asked from local cylinder head tuning place an estimate how much it would cost to make custom intake valves from Ferrea steel blanks... Answer is 50€ / valve. That would mean 400€ for intake, 800€ for whole valvetrain unless exhaust valves are even more expensive. No thanks!

So if you can use OEM valves, you can have big savings...

Frankie

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« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2008, 09:33:03 AM »
Thats cheap ;) You know that red BLE-XXX E30 M3 M5 conversion? Just headwork was around 8000 euros.

halcron

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« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2008, 09:31:48 PM »
Quote from: Boyracer;55509
I just ordered some parts, on the list was these:

2008 E92 M3 S65 Intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 838 293
diameter: 35.7 mm
stem: 4.97 mm
weight: 43 gram
cost: 15.00 euro

2005 E60 M5 S85 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 833 775
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 4.97 mm
weight: 36 gram
cost: 16.40 euro

2004 E60 545i N62 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 541 555
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 4.92 mm
weight: 42 gram
cost: 13.70 euro

So after that we should have some solid data on those valves. I did not order any 6 mm valve stem parts because I think we already know the closest 35 mm valve there is (M62B44). If there are suitable 5 mm stem valves, then I need to find out if I can find suitable valve guides too.

Earlier today I asked from local cylinder head tuning place an estimate how much it would cost to make custom intake valves from Ferrea steel blanks... Answer is 50€ / valve. That would mean 400€ for intake, 800€ for whole valvetrain unless exhaust valves are even more expensive. No thanks!

So if you can use OEM valves, you can have big savings...


Do let us know if you are able to get those valves into the head successfully.

Regarding the valves, I think it should not be an issure if they are too long. Sounds like a machine shop with some CNC equipment could easily cut the stem and create the grooves for it.

halcron

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« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2008, 10:02:33 PM »
Btw, whats the length of the M42 and the M62 valve?

Thanks!

Boyracer

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Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2008, 02:56:57 AM »
Quote from: halcron;55558
Do let us know if you are able to get those valves into the head successfully.

Regarding the valves, I think it should not be an issure if they are too long. Sounds like a machine shop with some CNC equipment could easily cut the stem and create the grooves for it.


Just got a call from BMW service, they have my parts ready for pick up. They had to create some new items to their information system because I am apparently first person in whole Scandinavia to order some of those parts (I suspect M3/M5 valves) :D

Will post photos and measurements of them here next week.

Received yesterday Schrott 6-point race harness for the car, used and FIA validation is now obsolete but condition is very nice. Bought also OMP 350 mm 90 mm deep suede covered race steering wheel with adapter for E36.

Studied a bit Megasquirt and VEMS. I would go for mega in an instant but VEMS has vastly better knock sensor support built in and I really, really would like to use knock sensors with 12,6 CR...

halcron

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« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2008, 04:37:55 AM »
Wow! 12.6 CR is very high though. That would be well in racing engines category!

Boyracer

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« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2008, 06:56:34 AM »
Yes, it is about the same as in S42. But long duration camshafts (280+) will lower dynamic CR because valves close later when piston has already moved upwards, this reduces the effective CR.

Not sure if the static CR will be exactly 12,6 though. That is what Wössner tells these pistons have in S50B30. I suppose M42 combustion chamber shape is quite close but I need to perform some volume measurements. I think slightly thicker cylinder head gasket helps if CR seems too high.

Stock M42 piston on left, my Wössner pistons on right. Easy to see where the higher CR comes from :p



Some decent priced forged H profile M42 con rods on german ebay now. But if I buy them I cannot use the M47 crank if I happen to find such elusive treasure...