Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp

Author Topic: Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp  (Read 156752 times)

romkasponka

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 3
  • Posts: 788
    • View Profile
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #120 on: March 19, 2011, 04:07:57 AM »
Quote from: NickHertlein;102404
Won't 50mm throttles be too big and give you poor throttle modulation? Dbilas uses 45mm throttle bodies.

Just curious how you figured 50mm would be suitable.


If it is suitable on M3 3,0 and 3,2 why it should be not suitable here?
E30 318is M42
E36 318is M44

wazzu70

  • Nasty Nick
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 18
  • Posts: 671
    • View Profile
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #121 on: March 19, 2011, 11:16:22 AM »
The proper throttle butterfly diameter is a function of the inlet valve/port area(s). If you have say a 40mm diameter port, and a 45mm butterfly its approximately 10% larger where as a 50mm diameter butterfly will be 20% larger.

With a larger butterfly as a percentage of the port a smaller opening in the throttle (degrees of opening as your TPS sees it) lets in a lot more air. This makes modulating the throttle difficult as a very small input at the pedal is a larger change in air entering the port. Also, you might be WOT as far as the amount of air your engine can ingest at say 80% throttle leaving the last 20% to be completely worthless.

There is such thing as too big of a throttle opening. I can't recall the diameter of the intake runners at the end of the lower manifold so I don't know what the preferred throttle diameter is.

A simple way to do this is a S50b32 has about .53L per cylinder where as the M42b18 has .45L per cylinder. Essentially the S50b30 uses 15% more air per cylinder as a quick and dirty calculation.

50mm just seems too much to me which is why I haven't tried to use these. Some people oversize the throttle for things like autocross though so with barely any throttle input the car really takes off making response awesome but more of an on/off switch.
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

romkasponka

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 3
  • Posts: 788
    • View Profile
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #122 on: March 20, 2011, 11:03:36 AM »
IMHO 20% is not a big difference and ITB-head ports match perfectly.
E30 318is M42
E36 318is M44

wazzu70

  • Nasty Nick
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 18
  • Posts: 671
    • View Profile
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #123 on: March 20, 2011, 11:10:49 PM »
True, maybe its suitable size. I was just curious if he just used them because they were cheap, or if he actaully figured they were a correct size.

I saw that a few other people have used 50mm throttle bodies and seem to like them, so its probably a decent fit.
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

Boyracer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 388
    • View Profile
    • http://www.jannousianen.net
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #124 on: May 14, 2011, 01:56:00 PM »
Quote from: NickHertlein;102451
True, maybe its suitable size. I was just curious if he just used them because they were cheap, or if he actaully figured they were a correct size.

I saw that a few other people have used 50mm throttle bodies and seem to like them, so its probably a decent fit.

Oh, new posts on my topic :eek:

What you stated about individual cylinder volumes between M42B18 and S50B30 is true. However, intake port shape and dimensions on M42 and S50 heads are 99% identical so in that sense it is perfect match.

Also, while stock M42 revs to 6800 and S50 to around 7250, mine will rev atleast to 8500 so even if my individual cylinder volume is smaller than in S50B30 my engine will suck in more cylinder fulls of air in same unit of time. It is hard to say how much it will have effect in practice.

One has to remember that intake path tends to increase in diameter when going away from intake valve. So if you place throttle body close to intake valve 45 mm might be perfect. But if your throttle body is further away then 50 mm might be optimum. It is not just the diameter, it is where the throttle is located :)

Engine bottom end parts are in balancing and I should get them next week. I think I have all the parts now to assemble bottom end. I will make new ITB adapter from thicker aluminium (15 mm) and I will also make 10 mm Nylon thermal barrier spacer between cylinder head and ITB adapter to keep intake path cooler. I have intake trumpets made from 50 mm diam aluminium tube, I just need to make flanges to attach them to throttle bodies.

Parts for fuel rails are ready, I just need to braze them together. I cleaned few sets of injectors:



And I will service them with new O-rings, filters etc.

Superlight clutch/flywheel and hydraulic co-axial slave cylinder are in car and they work very well! Clutch pedal travel is perhaps 1/3rd what it was with stock setup. Also, the engine gains and loses revs like you would not believe! You have to be pretty quick on normal road speeds when shifting, otherwise the revs drop too much :D

3.45 -> 4.1 diff ratio change was installed and it is working fine, no extra noises. With only 140 hp stock engine, car accelerates in significantly different way, especially on 1st and 2nd gears. No wonder, diff is about 18-19% shorted now.

Oh, I also installed quick ratio Z3 steering rack that I found for 150€. Not tested on track yet but it feels faster but heavier when parking. I think it is going to be a hoot in track :p

Right now I am looking to buy good suspension, I swapped stock suspension to E36 M3 suspension and it is too tall for lightened 318is. I am looking AST Sportline II, Intrax RSA and KW Clubsport.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 01:58:12 PM by Boyracer »

romkasponka

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 3
  • Posts: 788
    • View Profile
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #125 on: May 18, 2011, 05:44:39 PM »
Quote from: Boyracer;103794


Right now I am looking to buy good suspension, I swapped stock suspension to E36 M3 suspension and it is too tall for lightened 318is. I am looking AST Sportline II, Intrax RSA and KW Clubsport.


Check UK, there is alot various brand and not china shit..
E30 318is M42
E36 318is M44

BlueAppleSoda

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #126 on: June 21, 2011, 02:49:55 AM »
I'm unsure if you are concerned but if you use the newer ev6-style ev1 bosch injectors, fuel atomization pattern is much wider and finer, and they are smoother at low PWs.

Also ms3x...sequential fuel and spark for 8 cylinders....I'm sure you already know that.

Derek

Boyracer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 388
    • View Profile
    • http://www.jannousianen.net
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #127 on: August 12, 2011, 09:23:50 AM »
Some progress! :eek:

Removed sound deadening mats:



Removed rear brake dust shields:



AST Sportline II suspension with rear coilover option:









Some parts for adjustable custom control arms, I will replace every rubber bushing with spherical bearing and manufacture tube control arms:



Glassfiber hood:


Boyracer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 388
    • View Profile
    • http://www.jannousianen.net
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #128 on: August 12, 2011, 09:27:42 AM »
Some earlier efforts I forgot...

17" BBS RK wheels, cost me 200€:



309 x 32 mm Wilwood rotors and Rally Design customizable aluminium rotor hats:



Deleted front brake dust shields:



Toyo R888 225/45-17 tires:


romkasponka

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 3
  • Posts: 788
    • View Profile
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #129 on: August 12, 2011, 10:21:09 AM »
Quote from: Boyracer;106055
Some earlier efforts I forgot...

17" BBS RK wheels, cost me 200€:


Are wheels width 9 inch? very nice wheels...
E30 318is M42
E36 318is M44

Boyracer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 388
    • View Profile
    • http://www.jannousianen.net
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #130 on: August 12, 2011, 12:38:41 PM »
Sadly only 8" with ET 35... But they and R888's barely fit to wheel wells as they are, any wider and I would have to start looking for widebody conversion...

Few other things I forgot:

1. BMW E36 M3 brake master cylinder for 13% more piston area (shorter pedal travel)

2. Stainless steel lined brake hoses

3. Wheel stud conversion front and rear

DaveM-sport

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #131 on: August 12, 2011, 01:34:24 PM »
The S50 ITBs are kinda too small for the 1.8
Throttle modulation can be pretty difficult.

Worl very well with a 2/2.1L engine though :cool:

romkasponka

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 3
  • Posts: 788
    • View Profile
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #132 on: August 12, 2011, 01:44:50 PM »
Instal front aluminium arms from E46 and you will get good caster camber and mass reduction in suspension moving parts, that will increase grip and so on... ;)
E30 318is M42
E36 318is M44

DaveM-sport

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #133 on: August 12, 2011, 04:28:38 PM »
Quote from: romkasponka;106061
Instal front aluminium arms from E46 and you will get good caster camber and mass reduction in suspension moving parts, that will increase grip and so on... ;)


Indeed! Makes a great difference.

We just use custom rose-jointed arms on our track E30s and E36s though

Boyracer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 388
    • View Profile
    • http://www.jannousianen.net
Buildup: My quest for NA 280 hp
« Reply #134 on: August 12, 2011, 04:36:56 PM »
Quote from: romkasponka;106061
Instal front aluminium arms from E46 and you will get good caster camber and mass reduction in suspension moving parts, that will increase grip and so on... ;)


I was thinking something more like this:



Both rear control arms shoud also be tubular and adjustable type :)