Author Topic: Engine Managment Systems (Read 13818 times)

bmwman91 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2007, 02:14:40 PM »

Quote from: D. Clay;28077

I am waiting on a price for a system specifically for the M42. I'll post it as soon as I get it. The software is definitely first rate but the price may be prohibitive as noted above.

I'm listening......

Master · « **Reply #16 on:** June 20, 2007, 06:20:02 PM »

Ok, did a major cleanup of the whole thread, it should be much more relevant and understandable now.

So basically it has all come down to this:
as someone said:

Quote

Hardware is only as good as the software

It doesn't matter if the hardware can support lots of stuff, but if you have the software to utilize it…

So I downloaded and checked the software for different standalones, and was quite surprised.

For example VEMS and MS actually use the same software: MegaTune.
So this in fact may justify the huge price range of standalone systems.
For example software provided with the Link standalones is more friendlier and easier to understand than the complex and universal MegaTune (judging from the looks anyway, as I hadn't any experience in tuning with either), and I imagine that MoTeC has an even more advanced and friendlier software

So if deciding which management system to use, be sure to check the software out, as the quality of the tools often reflects the quality of the job

As for me, I think I will go with the MSII-extra, as it provides the same features as VEMS for a slightly lower price, but mainly because the amount of manuals and support is far greater for the MS than for VEMS, and MS certainly has a bright future, as it has gathered a great momentum and support with the enthusiast crowd.

You can find some additional info by reading this thread I started at bimmerforums

sheepdog · « **Reply #17 on:** June 20, 2007, 07:23:26 PM »

Megasquirt will cost a lot more than what you state.
The computer is that much, but you need much more than just that, think closer to a grand all said and done.

Master · « **Reply #18 on:** June 21, 2007, 02:01:45 PM »

Quote from: sheepdog;28168

Megasquirt will cost a lot more than what you state.
The computer is that much, but you need much more than just that, think closer to a grand all said and done.

I don't see how this is ture. My prices are infact correct, and MegaSquirt II V3 PCB costs just below 250$, plus if you are willing to have some kind knock detection, you have to pay about 57$ (don't remember the exact price) for the knocksense expansion board, plus you have to get the LC-1 wideband controller which will set you back another 300$ (read somewhere that it cost 200$ not so long ago)
So the total would be ~650$ (added extra 50$ for some misc stuff (wires, connectors, etc.))
As I noted above almost all standalones/piggybacks require a wideband controller
I don't count such things as maf, as they are not part of a standalone, and require you to purchase them separately independet of the system you are using
The tuning itself can be done on the road provided you have a good base map
Also note that the LC-1 is a one time buy, so if you chose to update your system when MS II PCB V4 comes out, you would just have to pay for the kit itself

To bad MS III wasn't announced before the summer, would be a killer ecu definitely :rolleyes:

sheepdog · « **Reply #19 on:** June 21, 2007, 02:38:03 PM »

Quote from: Master;28204

I don't see how this is ture. My prices are infact correct, and MegaSquirt II V3 PCB costs just below 250$, plus if you are willing to have some kind knock detection, you have to pay about 57$ (don't remember the exact price) for the knocksense expansion board, plus you have to get the LC-1 wideband controller which will set you back another 300$ (read somewhere that it cost 200$ not so long ago)
So the total would be ~650$ (added extra 50$ for some misc stuff (wires, connectors, etc.))
As I noted above almost all standalones/piggybacks require a wideband controller
I don't count such things as maf, as they are not part of a standalone, and require you to purchase them separately independet of the system you are using
The tuning itself can be done on the road provided you have a good base map
Also note that the LC-1 is a one time buy, so if you chose to update your system when MS II PCB V4 comes out, you would just have to pay for the kit itself

To bad MS III wasn't announced before the summer, would be a killer ecu definitely :rolleyes:

How many sensors on the M42 will you need to replace to get MS working?

Master · « **Reply #20 on:** June 21, 2007, 02:56:07 PM »

Hmm, you may have a point here... Thanks for the tip, guess it will take some time to answer your question

D. Clay · « **Reply #21 on:** June 21, 2007, 04:54:01 PM »

The Motec system is pricey and requires the purchase of additional sensors, etc. Minimum of $3500 with a bunch of extra work. Full system - bolt on and plug in goes for $5000.

sheepdog · « **Reply #22 on:** June 21, 2007, 05:51:51 PM »

Quote from: Master;28211

Hmm, you may have a point here... Thanks for the tip, guess it will take some time to answer your question

Sorry, I was not trying to put your idea down, I love the idea of MS and I live the idea of hooking one up to an M42. Bmwman91 has done it and can probably give you an indication of the work necessary and possible costs.

I just did not want you thinking it was going to be as low buck as it appeared. I made that same mistake with MS a while back when I started looking into it.

Cristian G in Oz · « **Reply #23 on:** June 21, 2007, 06:25:18 PM »

Quote from: D. Clay;28223

The Motec system is pricey and requires the purchase of additional sensors, etc. Minimum of $3500 with a bunch of extra work. Full system - bolt on and plug in goes for $5000.

The E30 M3 Group A that I look after runs a MoTech M48. We are still running 2.3ltr 4 pot. We also have CAS, IAT, Ignition control, Lamda, TPS and fuel pump control.

Yes it is pricey. I think it cost $8000 AUS by the time we finished but we had to redo allot of stuff cause of the "shonky" install (we didn't go to a MoTec installer, but used a "mate" who is not as reliable as we thought). The answer is though, that this is a full blown race car and while MoTec is good for anything and everything there are definatly better priced options out there.

I know the ex TOMS Carina Super tourer I used to work on used MoTec M800, but It was way overmy head then. I just tried to keep up with the engine guys then.

I am about to try to make a new loom for the M3 as the current one is a bit of a bitsa.

As for my own car. I'm keeping it stock, but the VEMS does look good on paper.

Cristian

Frankie · « **Reply #24 on:** June 22, 2007, 12:11:10 AM »

Hestec, http://www.hestec.fi/english/index.htm

That is the preferred EMS for the Finnish rally drivers.

tim_s · « **Reply #25 on:** June 22, 2007, 09:24:39 AM »

MS can use any CLT/IAT sensors you like if you know what you're doing. I use all the original sensors (other than IAT because that's part of the binned AFM). additional costs are coil drivers, pwm idle control, stuff like that. Costs vary depending on skill and how you want to run it (I know that's vague, but is a big question). I've run MS1 extra and MS2 extra on an M42, I've also installed MS1 extra on Dan's IS. MS1 extra HR is the best code to use currently for a novice. this will change in time. master i'd recommend that's what you use.
also fwiw my current car (and dan's for that matter!) can be switched from running MS to moronic in a matter of a few seconds (swap two plugs over).

my car is currently running MS2 extra for fuel and sparks.
Spark tuning requires a rolling road, no other way of optimising timing properly imo. fuel tuning isn't that difficult, I've never got accel enrichment and starting under all conditions quite as good as factory with MS, but that's not due to MS but my ability imo.
Megatune is ok, I use megalogviewer to do most of the VE/sparks/AFR table tuning because the software does need improving in terms of usability in these respects. MT will be improved soon.

I can't see me choosing another standalone over megasquirt, once you really get on top of it, it's brilliant. it is a steeper learning curve than with other systems, and you do have to have a much better understanding that with other systems, but that's all part of the fun. If you want something straightforward, its not for you; but once all said and done it's very powerful and reliable.

If anyone is interested in a complete ready-to-roll MS setup for a standardish M42, let me know, i could be interested in investigating this if there's interest. I would use the msns 1 setup, and could do it in such a way as you could get it running better than a factory M42 with only a few hours installation.

dino245 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 22, 2007, 01:48:36 PM »

Tim_s
I need a timing map for my Haltech. I know that it is not the same but rather I need just another opinion on timing increase and rate of change form one load point to another. What ever you have would be apreciated.

Jimmy Lewis · « **Reply #27 on:** June 22, 2007, 11:26:59 PM »

bmwman91 do you have any write-ups or notes you made during the install of MS on your first car? I considering putting together a set-up with a friend who is very schooled in MS and runs MS and EPIS on his turbo MR-S. I was just curious if you had any M42 specific maps or notes or really anything, haha. Thanks.

Master · « **Reply #28 on:** June 28, 2007, 11:19:04 AM »

I've updated the list with 3 more wideband controllers, I think they are worth to consider. I personally am thinking on going with JAW, as LC-1 has more hype to it than it should, I also don't like the idea of LC-1 hanging under my car in pouring rain (It rains a lot where I come from), and I don't believe that a complex and reliable circuitry could fit in the connector itself (as with the LC-1)
Take a look at the Precision Wideband Controller to see what I mean

tim_s · « **Reply #29 on:** June 28, 2007, 02:33:54 PM »

Quote from: Master;28704

I've updated the list with 3 more wideband controllers, I think they are worth to consider. I personally am thinking on going with JAW, as LC-1 has more hype to it than it should, I also don't like the idea of LC-1 hanging under my car in pouring rain (It rains a lot where I come from), and I don't believe that a complex and reliable circuitry could fit in the connector itself (as with the LC-1)
Take a look at the Precision Wideband Controller to see what I mean

Where the hell do you get your info from? LC1 can go in the bay/interior, only an idiot would suggest putting it under the car. no circuitry is in the cable, it uses a standard bosch LSU 4.2 sensor. mine's been very handy (and has been in the car for circa 25k miles now). when i was without MS, the logworks s/w was really useful. The two analogues outputs are calibrated separaetly for my lpg and fuel ecus, which is very funky.