Tips for Improving Mileage, Most of Which Simple

Author Topic: Tips for Improving Mileage, Most of Which Simple  (Read 36222 times)

JHZR2

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Tips for Improving Mileage, Most of Which Simple
« Reply #90 on: June 17, 2007, 12:39:46 PM »
Quote from: highlandmiata;23487
stop your engine if you are stopped for more than 10 seconds. It takes less gas/pollution to stop, and then start, even for that short a time.


Close...  Daimler did a number of studies on this, and it takes about 30 seconds of (hot) idle fuel utilization to equal the amount required for startup.  Consider the added load at start up for recharging the battery via the alternator, re-producing the momentum in the oil and coolants flowing through the engine, etc.

I saw a follow-up on this study wich found that with new, highly controlled engines, it is more like 45 seconds to recoup the costs of start-up.  

I use 30 seconds myself.

Best,

JMH

JHZR2

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« Reply #91 on: June 17, 2007, 12:42:55 PM »
Quote from: sheepdog;27865
I just looked it up, 318IS is .33
The M3 was .32.

For comparison:
1991 Acura NSX .32
2000 Audi TT coupe .32
1991 Ferrari F40 .340
1996 Ferrari F50 .37
1996 Honda Civic .34
1998 Honda Accord .34
2000 Jag S-Type .32
1997 McClaren F1 .31
1999 Porsche 911 .30
1998 Toyota Camry .34
2000 Toyota Prius .29
2004+ Toyota Prius .26


It does have a SIGNIFICANT effect on fuel economy and resistance to maintaining momentum closer to 'for free'.

My 2004 saab 9-3 has a cd of 0.27.  The car rolls and rolls, and returns 36-40 MPG on straight highway runs.  Yes, tires and other things have a lot to do with how a car rolls and how much momentum it looses, but face velocity will kill it like nothng else.

JMH

JHZR2

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« Reply #92 on: June 17, 2007, 12:48:29 PM »
Quote from: tjts1;27638
What can I say, I live dangerously. That $3 bought me a hot dog and a coke for lunch on Sunday. But honestly I would love to see at least one M42 that died because of low octane abuse on this forum. This one has been on a steady diet of 87 octane for the last 139k miles. Why would I do anything different? Come to think of it, why would anyone offer aftermarket chips to take advantage of high octane gasoline if 87 will kill this engine? I'll let you know when I kill mine.

I don't have time to argue about every one of your points but I have a nice little before and after the diff swap comparison test lined up. You crack me up ;)


Ill be interested to hear every last tidbit of info on the diff swap - diffs have been the bane of my existnce in otherwise glorious ownership of this car.  Noisy, noisy, noisy from the diff itself - forget the engine...

Anyway, provided the radio isnt too loud, it would be VERY evident if 87 was a real prolem for your car.  I did an experiment with 89 in my 318i (chipped, though, so this can be a major difference), and while around town it was OK, more than half throttle on, say, highway acceleration on a merge would make a notable knocking sound.  

If you were having problems, youd likely hear it, its not that subtle, even when quite quiet.  

JMH

sheepdog

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« Reply #93 on: June 17, 2007, 01:47:49 PM »
Quote from: JHZR2;27889
It does have a SIGNIFICANT effect on fuel economy and resistance to maintaining momentum closer to 'for free'.

My 2004 saab 9-3 has a cd of 0.27.  The car rolls and rolls, and returns 36-40 MPG on straight highway runs.  Yes, tires and other things have a lot to do with how a car rolls and how much momentum it looses, but face velocity will kill it like nothng else.

JMH


Yes, but those numbers show the e30 was not as bad as many like to claim it is.
Even compared to many newer cars. Only recently have some really started to improve things.
"When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy." --Dave Berry

tjts1

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« Reply #94 on: June 17, 2007, 04:11:39 PM »
BP's E30 site lists Cd of .35 for 318is.
http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/318istechinfo.html
Quote from: JHZR2;27890
Ill be interested to hear every last tidbit of info on the diff swap - diffs have been the bane of my existnce in otherwise glorious ownership of this car.  Noisy, noisy, noisy from the diff itself - forget the engine...
I should have something here soon. Stay tuned ;)
Quote from: JHZR2;27890
If you were having problems, youd likely hear it, its not that subtle, even when quite quiet.  

JMH
Agreed 100%.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 04:56:29 PM by tjts1 »
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Alpine003

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« Reply #95 on: June 17, 2007, 11:13:21 PM »
Quote from: sheepdog;27857
I think I remember seeing .33, I wish .28.


I've read just about anything from .30-.35. Not really sure who's right.

Also, are the numbers rated include the Euro-grill, IS lip, IS rear spoiler, etc.?

To me comparing cd on cars like Ferrari isn't a fair comparison as some of those cars purposely use aerodynamics which can add to the cd but have a purpose in downforce/lift. Not really an apples to apples imo.

Also note that there are several cars excluded from the list with lower cd values as well.

sheepdog

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« Reply #96 on: June 18, 2007, 05:42:41 PM »
Quote from: Alpine003;27939

To me comparing cd on cars like Ferrari isn't a fair comparison as some of those cars purposely use aerodynamics which can add to the cd but have a purpose in downforce/lift.


Which is why I added some other cars as well.
Besides, they still have to carry around that drag when driving the same speeds we do.
"When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy." --Dave Berry

Alpine003

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« Reply #97 on: June 18, 2007, 08:08:07 PM »
Quote from: sheepdog;28016
Which is why I added some other cars as well.
Besides, they still have to carry around that drag when driving the same speeds we do.


But c'mon man, you picked the Ferrari's with the biggest wings. Of course they're going to have that kind of cd. ;) The higher hp cars can sacrifice on the cd a bit and still get away with it.

sheepdog

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« Reply #98 on: June 18, 2007, 08:16:07 PM »
Quote from: Alpine003;28025
But c'mon man, you picked the Ferrari's with the biggest wings. Of course they're going to have that kind of cd. ;) The higher hp cars can sacrifice on the cd a bit and still get away with it.


I also picked a Camry and Civic, I went for a wide range.
"When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy." --Dave Berry

tjts1

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« Reply #99 on: June 19, 2007, 01:05:38 AM »
Quote
   * 0.7 to 1.1 - typical values for a Formula 1 car (downforce settings change for each circuit)
    * 0.7 - Caterham Seven
    * at least 0.6 - a typical truck
    * 0.57 - Hummer H2, 2003
    * 0.51 - Citroën 2CV
    * 0.35 - Dodge Viper GTS
    * 0.46 - Ford Mustang, 1979 (coupe)
    * 0.45 - Dodge Viper RT/10
    * 0.44 - Ford Mustang, 1979 (fastback)
    * 0.44 - Toyota Truck, 1990-1995
    * 0.425 - Duple 425 coach, c.1985-1990 (named for its low coefficient, by coach standards)
    * 0.42 - Lamborghini Countach, 1974
    * 0.42 - Triumph Spitfire Mk IV, 1971-1980
    * 0.42 - Plymouth Duster, 1994
    * 0.40 - Ford Escape Hybrid 2005-2007
    * 0.39 - Dodge Durango, 2004
    * 0.39 - Triumph Spitfire, 1964-1970
    * 0.38 - Volkswagen Beetle
    * 0.38 - Mazda Miata, 1989
    * 0.38 - Honda Prelude, 1987-1991
    * 0.374 - Ford Capri Mk III, 1978-1986
    * 0.372 - Ferrari F50, 1996
    * 0.37 - Renault Twingo
    * 0.37 - BMW z3 M coupe, 1999-2003
    * 0.36 - Citroën CX, 1974 (the car was named after the term for drag coefficient)
    * 0.36 - Citroën DS, 1955
    * 0.36 - Eagle Talon, mid-1990s
    * 0.36 - Ferrari Testarossa, 1986
    * 0.36 - Honda Civic, 2001
    * 0.36 - Opel GT, 1969
    * 0.355 - NSU Ro 80, 1967
    * 0.35 - Aston Martin Vanquish, 2004
    * 0.35 - Jaguar XKR, 2005
    * 0.35 - Toyota MR2, 1998
    * 0.35 - BMW z4 M coupe, 2006-200?
    * 0.34 - Aston Martin DB9, 2004
    * 0.34 - Chevrolet Caprice, 1994-1996
    * 0.34 - Chevrolet Corvette Z06, 2006
    * 0.34 - Ferrari F40, 1987
    * 0.34 - Ferrari 360 Modena, 1987
    * 0.34 - Ferrari F430 F1, 1999-2004
    * 0.34 - Ford Sierra, 1982
    * 0.34 - Mercedes-Benz SL (Roof Down), 2001
    * 0.338 - Chevrolet Camaro, 1995
    * 0.33 - Audi A3, 2006
    * 0.33 - Citroën SM, 1970
    * 0.33 - Dodge Charger, 2006
    * 0.33 - Lamborghini Murcielago, 2001
    * 0.33 - Mazda RX-7 FC3C, 1987-91
    * 0.33 - Subaru Impreza WRX STi, 2004
    * 0.32064 - Volkswagen GTI Mk V, 2006 (0.3216 with ground effects)
    * 0.32 - Dodge Avenger,1995-2000
    * 0.32 - McLaren F1, 1992
    * 0.32 - Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16/2.3-16
    * 0.32 - Scion xB, 2008
    * 0.32 - Toyota Celica,1994-1999
    * 0.31 - Audi A4 B5, 1995-2000
    * 0.31 - Citroën AX, 1986
    * 0.31 - Citroën GS, 1970
    * 0.31 - Eagle Vision
    * 0.31 - Ford Falcon, 1995-1998
    * 0.31 - Holden Commodore, 1998
    * 0.31 - Honda Civic, 2006
    * 0.310 - Lamborghini Diablo, 1990-2001
    * 0.31 - Mazda RX-7 FC3S, 1986-91
    * 0.31 - Renault 25, 1984
    * 0.31 - Saab Sonett III, 1970
    * 0.31 - Toyota Avalon 1995-2004
    * 0.30 - Acura NSX, 2005
    * 0.30 - Mitsubishi Eclipse, 2000-2005
    * 0.30 - Audi 100, 1983
    * 0.30 - BMW E90, 2006
    * 0.30 - Hyundai Sonata, 2006
    * 0.30 - Porsche 996, 1997
    * 0.30 - Porsche 997 GT3 RS, 2007
    * 0.30 - Saab 92, 1947
    * 0.29 - Alfa Romeo 155, 1992
    * 0.29 - BMW 8-Series, 1989
    * 0.29 - Chevrolet Corvette, 2005
    * 0.29 - Daewoo Espero, 1990-1997
    * 0.29 - Dodge Charger Daytona, 1969
    * 0.295 - Ford Falcon au, 1998
    * 0.29 - Honda Accord Hybrid, 2005
    * 0.29 - Honda CRX HF 1988
    * 0.29 - Lancia Dedra, 1990-1998
    * 0.29 - Lexus LS 400, 1990
    * 0.29 - Lotus Elite, 1958
    * 0.29 - Mazda RX-7 FC3S Aero Package, 1986-91
    * 0.29 - Mercedes-Benz SL (Roof Up), 2001
    * 0.29 - Mercedes-Benz W203 C-Class Coupe, 2001 - 2007
    * 0.29 - Porsche Boxster, 2005
    * 0.29 - Porsche 997 GT3, 2006
    * 0.29 - Subaru XT, 1985
    * 0.291 - Toyota Avalon 2005-2007
    * 0.29 - Toyota Prius, 2001-2003
    * 0.28 - Porsche 997, 2004
    * 0.28 - Renault 25 TS, 1984
    * 0.28 - Saab 9-3, 2003
    * 0.28 - Toyota Camry and sister model Lexus ES, 2005, 2007
    * 0.27 - Honda Civic Hybrid, 2006
    * 0.27 - Infiniti G35, 2002 (0.26 with "aero package")
    * 0.27 - Mercedes-Benz W203 C-Class Sedan, 2001 - 2007
    * 0.27 - Rumpler Tropfenwagen, 1921
    * 0.27 - Toyota Camry Hybrid, 2007
    * 0.26 - Alfa Romeo Disco Volante, 1952
    * 0.26 - Hotchkiss Gregoire, 1951
    * 0.26 - Lexus LS 430, 2001 (0.25 with air suspension)
    * 0.26 - Mercedes-Benz W221 S-Class, 2006
    * 0.26 - Toyota Prius, 2004 - 2007
    * 0.26 - Vauxhall Calibra, 1989
    * 0.25 - Audi A2 1.2 TDI, 2001
    * 0.25 - Dymaxion Car, 1933
    * 0.25 - Honda Insight, 1999
    * 0.25 - SmILE (an experimental car)
    * 0.212 - Tatra T77 a, 1935
    * 0.20 - Loremo Concept, 2006
    * 0.20 - Opel Eco Speedster Concept, 2003
    * 0.195 - General Motors EV1, 1996
    * 0.19 - Alfa Romeo B.A.T. 7 Concept, 1954
    * 0.19 - Dodge Intrepid ESX Concept , 1995
    * 0.19 - Mercedes-Benz Bionic Concept, 2005 [6] (based on the boxfish)
    * 0.16 - Daihatsu UFEIII Concept, 2005
    * 0.16 - General Motors Precept Concept, 2000
    * 0.14 - Fiat Turbina Concept, 1954
    * 0.12 - Reflex 1000, 1996 [7]
    * 0.117 - Summers Brothers Goldenrod Bonneville race car, 1965
E34 fell in at between .30-.32 depending on wheels and tires and everything i've seen this far says E30 is .35.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 01:12:31 AM by tjts1 »
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christophbmw

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« Reply #100 on: June 21, 2007, 12:14:42 AM »
very informative, this is getting deep! so what about diff size?

im running the stocker 4.1 open but i want to switch to the 3.91 lsd, i think the price of the 3.91 will be earned back due to the gas i will save on the freeway, what do you guys think? or shall i say what are you guys running?
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tjts1

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« Reply #101 on: June 21, 2007, 12:47:37 AM »
In my view modifications for fuel economy are the same as modifications for horse power. You'll never make up the cost of the modification in better fuel economy in the same way that more horse power won't get you to work faster in the morning. I just find making the car more fuel efficient interesting and I'm willing to pay toward that goal. I don't assume that I'll ever recoup anything in better MPGs.

That said, I picked up my 3.64 open diff for $50. With any luck I'll have it in the car this weekend. Thats what I said last weekend too.
3.91 will reduce your RPMs by only 4.7% at any given speed so any fuel economy gain will be less than 4% if that. The 3.64 reduces RPM by 11.3% at any given speed but again I doubt it will reduce consumption by more than a couple mpg at best. I mostly want the tall gears to reduce the noise level in the car on the highway.

4.1


3.91


3.64


The rest of the ratios are here.
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26477&postcount=28
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sheepdog

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« Reply #102 on: June 21, 2007, 02:56:57 PM »
On a desktop dyno program (simulator):
Should be close, but do not count on it being 100%

3.64 gears will get about
23.1 mpg city
32.9 mpg highway
26.7 mpg average

3.72 gears will get about
22.8 mpg city
32.5 mpg highway
26.3 mpg average

3.91 gears will get about
22.0 mpg city
31.5 mpg highway
25.5 mpg average

For comparison, stock it says we should get (pretty close to what I actually get):
21.4 mpg city
30.6 mpg highway
24.7 mpg average
"When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy." --Dave Berry

tjts1

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« Reply #103 on: June 22, 2007, 01:25:04 AM »
Wow what program is that? I could use something like that. So 3.64 is worth 7.9% in the city and 7.5% on the highway. Thats more than I would have expected. Now I'm really curious to install that 3.64 in my car.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 09:26:14 AM by tjts1 »
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sheepdog

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« Reply #104 on: June 22, 2007, 03:13:01 PM »
Quote from: tjts1;28253
Wow what program is that? I could use something like that. So 3.64 is worth 7.9% in the city and 7.5% on the highway. Thats more than I would have expected. Now I'm really curious to install that 3.64 in my car.
Keep in mind it will not be 100% accurate, but should be darn near close.

The program I used is pretty old and at this point no longer even runs on Windows Xp or Vista due to recent patches by MS.
"When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy." --Dave Berry