M42/M44 ITB Kit Design

Author Topic: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design  (Read 298568 times)

kenno470

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #165 on: May 15, 2015, 11:00:07 PM »
I agree with pretty much everything you've cited here!  I have a few places where I can play and may even be able to reach my number without changing cams which, secretly, is one of my goals. Here's how:

E85 - Injectors are cheap and the stock rail can handle the additional fluid required to feed an E85 engine.  I am already required to use a fuel cell and aftermarket pump, so that is already figured into the budget.  I used E85 on my last Pikes Peak car and it works incredibly well (8-10%+).  Octane through the roof, burns much cooler, which is a must at Pikes Peak, and has the added benefit of being about $10.00 per gallon less than race fuel!

Open Exhaust.  I will use the stock header, at first, but fabricate a straight pipe exhaust all the way out the back.  I'm not limited on noise.  Some places where I test may have restrictions, but a high flow resonator will get me within regs.  As sponsorship or other funding allows, I will design and build a 4 into 1 long tube step header with a high velocity collector.  Definitely wrapping the system.  That was something else we proved on the previous car.

A re-flash of the stock ECU will definitely accompany all changes, and will be the trickiest part of this.  If I can avoid the expense of a new ECU, that would be best.  It's one area where I used to have sponsorship, but no longer.

I was really curious what we might be able to expect from this engine and when I came across your thread it really gave me hope that we could reach our goal number without breaking the bank.

Thanks again for the most impressive work!

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #166 on: May 23, 2015, 12:01:21 AM »
Hi Guys,

I realised I made a mistake in an earlier post and have edited it. It is kind of an important point for anyone trying to make a track engine so here is the edit. http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=18442.msg128877#msg128877

2.25" would be the largest diameter this engine will support - and that would be explicitly for track use. If you check out the edited post, you will see that the point is supported with evidence.

benz-tech

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #167 on: May 24, 2015, 12:58:55 AM »
I fully expected these results when I built my 2.25 exh: loss in low end, and little (if any) gains up top, esp with a tired engine. I didn't even bother trying a MAF signal comparison since  those should have been the results. What I got, though, defied all stated logic. I gained significant torque in the 2,500-4k rpm range.  Top end saw some, but less dramatic, improvement. I can't run a straight-through muffler where I live since I would be way too loud and I imagine even a good 2" baffled muffler on stock pipe would post lower gains. Now I don't have dyno results to show what I experienced but I wouldn't be afraid of running 2.25" exh for this engine on the street.  I offer my keys to anyone who wishes to drive it to experience it for themselves. My guess is, that in order to get enough flow out of a 2" system, one needs to run a loud straight-through muffler. And I'm sure my new found torque would disappear if I installed one on the bigger pipe. With the more air that your engine is flowing, I'd be curious how it would run with a good 2.25 system and a quiet (ish) muffler choice.
Pi is apparently the multiplier for your engine swap budget as well.

thebrelon

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #168 on: May 28, 2015, 02:46:34 PM »
Hey there!
Lambertius, do you know that the individual cylinder displacement of a M52B28 is only 3.6% more than that of a M42b18 (84×84 vs84×81mm), Cr are almost identical (10 and 10.2), cc vol are identical and I'm pretty sure you just have to add 2 cylinders to your manifold to make it fit a M52B28 (port must be identical as well as intake manifold "print")?

My point is that you can most probably reuse all you did on the m42 with the M52 and see a bigger gain as this engine is very well known to be choked and de-rated from factory. I bet you can yeld 20%, at least.
You would also hit a larger customer base...

what do you think anout it?
Vince
'91 318is 230000km stock

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #169 on: June 01, 2015, 11:06:48 PM »
Hey there!
Lambertius, do you know that the individual cylinder displacement of a M52B28 is only 3.6% more than that of a M42b18 (84×84 vs84×81mm), Cr are almost identical (10 and 10.2), cc vol are identical and I'm pretty sure you just have to add 2 cylinders to your manifold to make it fit a M52B28 (port must be identical as well as intake manifold "print")?

My point is that you can most probably reuse all you did on the m42 with the M52 and see a bigger gain as this engine is very well known to be choked and de-rated from factory. I bet you can yeld 20%, at least.
You would also hit a larger customer base...

what do you think anout it?

It has come up with Rama before, but the issue is getting a donor car for testing.

thebrelon

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #170 on: June 02, 2015, 11:59:39 AM »
I wish I could help... :(
Vince
'91 318is 230000km stock

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #171 on: June 13, 2015, 12:08:44 AM »
Exhaust Drone

So as I said before, the exhaust drone was brutal.



The red peak (125Hz @2900RPM) is what caused all the hell, nearly 30dB above the base line. Every octave (double the frequency) you see the same peak resurge.

The green line is @4000RPM where the headers are working correctly and the drone reduces. As weird as it sounds, the car was quieter while driving hard:

"Why were you speeding son?"
"I was trying to stop my brain being rattled out of my head - it's quieter this way!"

So I left my car with a friend who I trust when I went back to Perth and with his help I had Brintech install a side resonator. Other than installing it in the wrong spot, they did everything else I asked for - including making the length adjustable. This point is very important since you can only estimate the exhaust temperature and you will certainly be wrong, when calculating the length of the resonator.

The installation made immediate differences to the volume but wasn't perfect, but running another spectral analysis I was able to observer the target frequency clearly and re-do the calculations to infer the exhaust temp in the resonator and sort out the correct length.



In this case you can see the green line is the volume after the resonator is installed. It becomes effective a little too early, wiping out nearly half of the noisiest spot, but missing the loudest peak. Doing the maths again resulted in a shorter resonator. After adjusting it again, the results are below:



It totally wiped out the cruising drone, and the cabin volume dropped from a blistering 85dB to 75dB - which is now about as loud as a stock NB MX-5. The open muffler induces such a wide array of drone frequencies  that the perfect solution would be three side resonators targeting just below the peak, just above the peak and the peak drone points. However, with the brutality knocked off it I will just spend ~$100 on some insulation and line the boot and under the rear seat. Another 5dB and it will sound like stock volume inside the car. The good news though is that there isn't any exhaust volume while crusing, it isn't till you open the throttle that it gets loud again.

Below are the pictures of the side resonator with a clamp that makes it adjustable:







I have some recordings that demonstrate the differences when I get a chance.

Good news for you LHD kids Rama has started fitting LHD parts!



I'll also be doing some experiments with tapered intakes and plenum volume to see if we can squeeze a bit more out of it :)

And one more thing...

Rama has started work on his straight replacement M42/4 LTW Flywheel. It will use an M20 clutch kit and that is it! He has offered me one to test-fit, but there is a slight problem. I have a brand new clutch and OEM flywheel (like ~1000kms ago) and I'm hesitant to pull the gearbox off again. The other issue is that I've spent more than I can reasonably at this point in time, especially if I want to do things properly. A lot of people would like to know the real world benefits of a light flywheel, as well as the driveability. I was thinking of installing it and running a before and after dyno run in 2nd gear to show how it affects transmission losses and wheel-power. I can't really afford the M20 clutch kit, installation and two more dyno runs...

So here are the questions, would anyone want to buy my slightly used clutch kit and flywheel?

Does anyone want the kind of numerical feedback you would see on a dyno?

And would anyone like to buy-in early? If Rama has some sales ahead of time, he may be a bit keen to invest a little further and assist me with doing detailed testing. I think by this point its clear that Rama isn't producing vapourware and these will be on the market soon - flywheels, ITB kits and everything else! I've been trying to prod him into giving people early access prices, so now would be a good time to show your support!


K_Wheat

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #172 on: June 13, 2015, 02:15:32 PM »
Does Rama have an estimated price point for the itb Kit? I would definatley be willing to buy in early, but I haven't heard a price yet?

Tgoode318

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #173 on: June 13, 2015, 04:10:13 PM »
Alright LHD!  ;D  8)
-'94/05 M42 Convertible
-2001 330CI M Package
-2016 M4 Competition

spidertri

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #174 on: June 15, 2015, 07:42:14 PM »
I'm definitely interested in the ITB kit. Early group buy sounds good to me.

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #175 on: June 19, 2015, 10:17:29 AM »
Does Rama have an estimated price point for the itb Kit? I would definatley be willing to buy in early, but I haven't heard a price yet?

I'm definitely interested in the ITB kit. Early group buy sounds good to me.

Rama is still working on suppliers for different parts, so I really don't know for certain what he intends to charge. He said that it is 2/3rds of his M20 kit, so it should be around 2/3rds the price which would put it around $1200USD. I don't know though, I'm just guestimating.

He did say that he would be interested in doing an early uptake pricing though, and I think he wants to sort a few things out then join the forums and get involved.

Also, I could use some help - how hard is it to remove the headers? Anyone have some DIY pics to help me get ready for the next project?

MLM

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #176 on: June 19, 2015, 06:59:50 PM »
Its easy enough. Just takes patience and a bit of fiddling to get the right socket/ extension combination. The steering column can stay in place. Took me 2 hrs first time and 30 minutes the next time once I knew how to access each bolt.

If the next project is headers, don't underestimate the amount of fabrication effort to get your desired lengths.

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #177 on: June 20, 2015, 03:15:05 AM »
Its easy enough. Just takes patience and a bit of fiddling to get the right socket/ extension combination. The steering column can stay in place. Took me 2 hrs first time and 30 minutes the next time once I knew how to access each bolt.

If the next project is headers, don't underestimate the amount of fabrication effort to get your desired lengths.

It isn't, I don't have the funds to justify making headers and testing them till I get them right. What I want to do is wrap the exhaust from the headers back to improve the thermal efficiency. For ~$30 of fibreglass wrapping it is worth the $$ for another 1~2%. Fabricating headers however... even if I got all of the lengths right the first time, I would still be out $$$$ for ~5% improvement. I was talking to Rama, and he was saying that with the interference headers that are used OEM, the secondary length makes more of a difference than the shorter primary lengths, so any gains in performance would be minimal. Don't get me wrong, I would love to work out the exact right solution and put it all together just so I could say I've optomised it as much as possible, but I can't do it on my own and Rama isn't interested in doing the headers. If people were really interested in it, I could probably convince Brintech to do them cheap enough for me to afford testing it, but he would only help me out if he knew he had sold some ahead of time.

Anyway, I just wanted to know if its possible/reasonable to get them on and off the car without a hoist?

MLM

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #178 on: June 20, 2015, 04:55:19 AM »
Axel stands work. If you can get under the car then you have all the height you need.

wazzu70

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #179 on: June 22, 2015, 10:00:57 AM »
You can get at everything on a LHD without a hoist. I have always just used a jack and stands as mentioned above.

Not sure about RHD setup but I am sure you can do it....just more of a pain than LHD.
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS