Author Topic: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design  (Read 298558 times)

Darky

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #150 on: May 08, 2015, 04:33:01 AM »
Hi
Yes the euro s50 is up around the 300 hp mark but that's at 7000 rpm with 260 inlet cam duration. Which is screaming!
This is kit is designed for lower rpm but if you increase your cam duration then the itb effect will increase in relation to rpm. However if you increase cylinder volume it will decrease in the rpm band!

Cheers

shady62

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2015, 04:55:53 AM »
I will be well keen to get my hands on a set of these for my e30 318is once its been proven on an e30. I have just recently received in the post a supertec 1mm oversized master valvetrain kit, so will be sending my head up to Rick at CNC heads in Manchester for the full CNC port and valve fitting. any ideas how this kit will work with the head after machining? as im guessing the ports will have been opened up a fair bit. it will be going on an m47 stroked bottom end.

Barrosco

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #152 on: May 08, 2015, 06:32:28 AM »
The euro S50 is what- 315hp?  If an M42 is set up to be basically 2/3rds of a euro S50, wouldn't breaking the 200hp mark be readily achievable?  I have an M42 on a stand here, along with the complete driveline to put it all in my 2002.  I already have an M47 crank, so top end work including itbs is part of the plan.  Megasquirt is local to me so that is a goal as well. It seems to me, at least with regards to runner length, that these itbs are more properly-sized than the euro S50.

I take it you're in Atlanta as well? I bought all of my Microsquirt stuff directly from DIY Autotune and it was nice to not have to worry about shipping back and forth. Shoot me a PM if you're local, as I've also got an M42 2002.

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #153 on: May 08, 2015, 10:33:00 AM »
I will be well keen to get my hands on a set of these for my e30 318is once its been proven on an e30. I have just recently received in the post a supertec 1mm oversized master valvetrain kit, so will be sending my head up to Rick at CNC heads in Manchester for the full CNC port and valve fitting. any ideas how this kit will work with the head after machining? as im guessing the ports will have been opened up a fair bit. it will be going on an m47 stroked bottom end.


These will work on the E30 M42s. If you're looking at building a stroker you'll need a dedicated computer no matter what so you shouldn't really need proof so much as apply them to your unique build. What I've been trying to prove is that on a stock internal engine there are still gains to be had with an induction kit.

What this kit does is match the engine dynamics for RPM and displacement. Due to the modular design of Rama's stuff, you can use this kit with a range of different ITB sizes if you wanted, as well as different length intakes. You can buy the manifold to fit and match it to larger ports and ITB sizes - but all of his butterfly sizes will match the mounting, and it will match the port face for mounting as well. You can use multiple spacers and trumpets to get exactly the length you want if you've modified the engine. All that said, from everything I've learned, I reckon that a 42mm kit would work with 2.5L right up to 7000rpm.

Also, as a point of interest, I've been given the impression that the M5X series engines are actually based on the M42. I'm lead to believe that at the end of life for the M20 they replaced it by tacking on two more cylinders and using stuff learned from the more modernised valve train from the S14. Now I can't confirm any of this, it is all rumour mill stuff I've heard, but this is where it gets interesting. The S14 M3 engine is the M88 engine with two cylinders chopped off. The modernised cheaper manufacturing for the M42 meant that the Euro S50 M3 engine was actually a developed using a combined knowledge of the M42 (cheap manufacturing) and M88 to make a modernised, cheap, light and powerful straight six. Now there is an extremely persistent and incorrect rumour that the BMW S70/2 featured in the McLaren F1 is a strung out version of the M70 found in the 850i - it isn't. The original idea was based on that engine, but it was too heavy and large to fit the specs laid out for the F1, but the S50 wasn't. So the S70 which was designed by bolting two M20s on a common crank became the starting point but the F1 engine ended up with only one thing in common with the S70 - it was designed by binding together a proven BMW engine, in this case the S50.

So if you're feeling liberal with your mental gymnastics, you could say that your M42 engine is the basis for the BMW S70/2 used in the fastest naturally aspirated production vehicle ever to hit the streets!

Thats right, you all own McLaren F1s!  8)

*Note: Don't assume any of this is true :D

shady62

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #154 on: May 09, 2015, 05:04:23 AM »
Ta lambertius

can you explain the reasonings behind needing to go standalone management for my stroker? I'm good with the mechanical side of it all but I'm a complete novice when it comes to electronics/management etc

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #155 on: May 09, 2015, 07:47:21 AM »
Ta lambertius

can you explain the reasonings behind needing to go standalone management for my stroker? I'm good with the mechanical side of it all but I'm a complete novice when it comes to electronics/management etc

An ECU at its simplest uses a single sensor to determine some environmental factors for an engine, which are then used to identify information on a lookup table to provide information on ignition timing and fuel. This information is referred to as a map, which is where you get expressions like a fuel map or timing map from. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_control_unit

At the most basic, the single sensor is usually a throttle position sensor because the type of sensor used is very reliable. However, when you only use one sensor, other aspects of your environment can change such as air temperature, density and humidity which will affect the accuracy of fuel and timing maps.

In order to improve engine performance and efficiency you can relay more information from more sensors. If you know the temperature of the air, and the velocity of the air entering the engine (via the MAF) you can work out the density of the air. This allows you to accurately gauge the amount of fuel and timing needed to optimise performance. Further, if you monitor the exhaust mix you can determine the efficiency of the burn as well as using knock-sensors to identify the quality of the fuel. A system that implements all of this information is running in 'closed-loop' since it is actively monitoring all inputs and outputs and adjusting the system on the fly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-loop_controller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

Most engines run by referring to maps, including MIMO (multi-input multi-output) systems instead of 'true' closed-loop - this particular point is why you will need to change your computer. Our cars, despite taking in a huge array of information, don't actually dynamically adjust like in a real closed-loop system. They do adjust some items but most of it is gained via lookup.

Engineers will test engines exhaustively for months and create tables that have every possible condition they can think of, plus more. All the sensors will monitor what is happening and then that information will be found on a table, and the engine will run designated timing and fuel. By monitoring the AFRs you can effectively determine if your fueling is correct, and by monitoring engine knock you can determine if your timing is correct. If it is incorrect, the computer makes a note that that map it referred to was incorrect and moves onto the next most likely option. This isn't true closed-loop, but the loop is effectively closed provided the information required is already in the table. This should be how the DME 1.7 operates.

With the DME 5.2 it is slightly better than that. It is able to write its own maps rather than referring to an endless, and slow, supply of pre-written information. However it still relies on a 'safe' operating reference point, so that it won't blow the engine up. The more your drive it, the more 'refined' the reference map becomes as the map adjusts to local conditions and driving patterns.

The reason my car still works with the stock ECU and is making reasonable power gains is that I haven't changed the internal dynamics of the engine - it still has the same compression and cams, so the 'reference' point is still the same, just more conservative than it would've been on the stock setup. The changes made really only affect one sensor, and that is the MAF. The engine knows there is more air going in, and monitors the AFRs to confirm what is going on, so it all works.

For the same reason the kit should work on any stock M42 engine with its stock computer. BMW engineers would've programed more than 20% variance for MAF just based on the potential for air density changes in weather and altitude, so even on a lookup table the stock computer should just work but with a higher probability of not being perfect.

The problem with what you're wanting to do is that all of the default expectations that your computer has will be wrong so it won't be able to find a correct map. The computer has certain expectations and limitations it is working with which dictake how fuel and timing are controlled. For example, a longer cam duration would change when fuel can be injected, not just how much. Higher compression would alter the ignition timing from stock for the same mass flow rate. By getting a custom computer tuned specifically to your engine dynamics you can significantly increase performance. With everything stock, gains can be made but on a sophisticated NA engine they are very small unless something is actually wrong.

So the tl;dr version:

As long as you don't change the internal engine dynamics, the BMW engineers should've written enough information for NA mods to work cost-effectively.

Tgoode318

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #156 on: May 09, 2015, 10:17:01 PM »
Hey lambertius can you tell us more about the muffler you swapped to?
-'94/05 M42 Convertible
-2001 330CI M Package
-2016 M4 Competition

shady62

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #157 on: May 11, 2015, 01:45:08 PM »
You should open a school mate, thanks for that really enlightening!
I'm glad you don't get the hate for asking "stupid" questions on this forum
thanks  mate I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, love it

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2015, 10:41:12 AM »
Hey lambertius can you tell us more about the muffler you swapped to?

I should actually work out what the brand is at some point.... But it is just a straight-through muffler.

Mufflers are loosely in three categories:

Baffled



That is the inside of the OEM E36 328i muffler that I lifted from google. The way it works is it has a few chambers which resonate to cancel drone which someone at BMW would've spent a large amount of time working out. Looking at it you can see why the muffler was worth 6% more power. It forces the exhaust into one chamber through a sieve which then enters another pipe through a sieve to make it to the next chamber and so on till it finally exits. This would result in significantly back pressure the higher in the RPM you go, but is super effective at killing noise. When I finally can put up the new exhaust video to compare you'll see how loud this engine is now. Its V8 loud between the intake and exhaust.

Offset

Most mufflers you buy are like this. All those nice burbley ones by Borla and Remus use multiple chambers designed to resonate at a certain point to create burble and to cancel drone. It is why they sound epic but not loud - the problem is they don't flow very much better than stock, so they really are an aesthetic mod.



You can see intuitively that the above will flow better, but it will still generate back pressure. The intake exhaust line is almost always offset.



Straight

It doesn't have to always be perfectly straight, but it basically means there are no baffles or chambers. The muffler is usually just a perforated straight pipe, and the muffler box is backed with glass to try and absorb some sound. This is what I have. A perfectly straight pipe with no muffler might be worth another 1% less drag, so this is about as good as it gets really. This is what you will find in race cars, but they will have small glass chambers (people call them hotdogs because of the thin long look) to minimise drag.



Mine is a center muffler straight through. The problem is that it changes the resonant characteristics and drones like a monster. I'm practicing some maths and will be installing a side resonator to cancel the drone. If that works then I will be able to keep it on the road, otherwise I'll be swapping between the new muffler for track days and the old for road use. If I get the maths right I'll write up the process as well so you can all have drone free cars no matter what diameter you use! The engine is small displacement, so even straight through it isn't particularly loud even though it is louder than before. What amazes me is the tone is so low that it actually sounds like a straight through LS Engine, just a bit smoother.

The muffler intake combo is brutal which was also unexpected. My mate has an audio recording which as soon as I get I'll post like I did the induction note earlier. The induction note is completely different with the new muffler, and whenever I let off the throttle the exhaust makes a massive crack and spits out hate and vengeance burbling like a brook that has been listening to death metal. It really sounds like a racecar - just down 200 horsepower...

I also had a chat to Rama about the RHD headers.

He has told me that unless I go to a 4-1 collector (which will need to be specifically tuned to a particular RPM) there won't be any gains to be had off the stock setup. He was saying that the 4-2-1 setup creates a broader performance range for torque, and that it is all roughly equal length should mean there aren't many gains. The headers are less sensitive to changes than the intake and BMW should've had its engineers test the 4-2-1 setup for a particular set of torque characteristics so the length should be as good as can be expected for road use. From what he was saying, a set of tuned and tested headers would see me 1~2% not enough to justify the cost for a stock internal car. He was also saying that a 4-1 collector would see losses outside its designated range, and you can't choke the diameter like you can on the intake side because you will definitely restrict the upper RPM flow as there is a much higher gas volume.

So for the E30 guys, from what I can tell, if your headers really do blow as much as you say, put the E36 headers on.
You should open a school mate, thanks for that really enlightening!
I'm glad you don't get the hate for asking "stupid" questions on this forum
thanks  mate I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, love it

Cheers, I'm glad you're getting some value from it. If you want to see some 'hate', you should check out the sister thread I was running over at Bimmerforums. The first page was a few guys arguing with me about how ITBs suck and I would just lose power (all the common myths which my first post was entirely about dispelling *sigh*). At least a few people pointed out that I had already 'said that', and I guess the proof is there now.

If you can find a way for me to get paid and teach auto-engineering I'm all for it... I used to work at a Uni and did some lecturing, but that was a survival money gig, though, the work was interesting. It also sucks that there are no auto companies in Aus to work for. There are a few hack-n-slash tuning shops, but that clearly isn't what I'm doing. Aston Martin had their grad program open a little while ago, but there isn't even a point trying for that not being in the UK - plus being in Australia I have no "industry experience" with auto-engineering because there is no industry so I wouldn't have had a chance. Through a random turn of events I have the contact details for the managing director of BMW AU and BMW UK; I was thinking of shooting them off an email when this is totally finished and seeing what happens. For the moment I'll continue working in retail which pays about double what engineering pays here and will continue "teaching" people about why they need to get an extended warranty for that iPod until I can start working in an industry that isn't academic or engineering (hopefully soon!).

Oh, and who here plays Gran Turismo 6?

E36-italia

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #159 on: May 13, 2015, 01:52:28 PM »
I have no cat, stock resonator, straight trough rear muffler.. and it gives a nice low sound below 3k rpm.. above that the open air filter screams everything away.
but then i have no interior, single skin carbon hood .. that amplifies the noise a bit i think :P

also a small pop from 1200rpm to 800rpm.. but no high rpm bangs unfortunately :(
950kg E36 from 3/94 ex M42B18, now with Saab B204l turbo power.

shady62

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #160 on: May 13, 2015, 03:06:02 PM »
I ordered a standard exhaust set up today, the chap that had my is before me put a straight through stainless system on followed by what looks like a massive back box from a 2.5, it sounds fucking horrendous. Should be interesting seeing what you come up with considering how impressively you followed the ITB project through.

MLM

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #161 on: May 13, 2015, 08:11:03 PM »
E36 M42 RHD headers are not equal length - are M44 RHD equal?  Im keen to see a pic of the RHD M44 headers if they are equal length. The m42 primary length ranges from 130mm to 420mm with 90degree intersections. Hardly optimal.

The difference is LHD vs RHD where RHD have too contend with a steering column and a compromised design.

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #162 on: May 14, 2015, 08:52:45 AM »
E36 M42 RHD headers are not equal length - are M44 RHD equal?  Im keen to see a pic of the RHD M44 headers if they are equal length. The m42 primary length ranges from 130mm to 420mm with 90degree intersections. Hardly optimal.

The difference is LHD vs RHD where RHD have too contend with a steering column and a compromised design.

They're not perfectly equal length - but I'm pretty sure that the difference between them isn't that severe. I'll measure them up when I get back to Sydney, however I'm pretty sure that cylinders 2-4 are the same length, and Cylinder 1 is longer.

And as promised, exhaust recordings!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PS8GGwnq6M

A comparison of before and after while stationary, and there is also a comparison of the change in the induction note from opening up the muffler.

kenno470

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #163 on: May 15, 2015, 01:13:58 PM »
This is really incredible work, Sir.  I am working on a 318is that I hope will take me back to the summit of Pikes Peak next year, and this looks like exactly what is needed to get us to the power number we're looking for.  I'll definitely be in touch with your friend to see about a kit and getting it shipped to the US.

Like you, I'm constantly being told to just do a swap, etc.  But that's not at all what I want to do! 

Genuinely looking forward to whatever it is that captures your interest next.   

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #164 on: May 15, 2015, 08:53:26 PM »
This is really incredible work, Sir.  I am working on a 318is that I hope will take me back to the summit of Pikes Peak next year, and this looks like exactly what is needed to get us to the power number we're looking for.  I'll definitely be in touch with your friend to see about a kit and getting it shipped to the US.

Like you, I'm constantly being told to just do a swap, etc.  But that's not at all what I want to do! 

Genuinely looking forward to whatever it is that captures your interest next.   

Cheers man.

I would really like to make a set of Tuned Headers and an exhaust to get the most NA out of the car. The problem with exhausts though is it isn't modular like the Induction Kit, which means that the only way to get it right would to be to build one and then test it - then build another and test it. If you've read the whole thread, you can see that we needed to extend the intake length to get things in the right place - we won't be easily able to do that with a set of Headers. If I had $10k to blow I would do it for sure, but considering the costs to get it right if I don't get it right the first time, and the fact that it may be worth really only be worth a few % more overall makes it a bit difficult to do. If I got a set of RHD headers right, they would fit all the LHD cars as well since the clearance is easier, but I just can't see a way to get the budget to do it at this point :(

As for you;

I really do think now that 100hp/l (190bhp) on this car is reachable without cracking the case.

Using % and 'rated' figures the car is already at ~168bhp (138*1.22) which also lines up with the dyno runs which range from 160~170bhp assuming 30% transmission losses. So depending on which dyno you believe, the car is only 20/30bhp from that number at the moment anyway.

If you want to get it there on a budget you'll need to:

  • Induction Kit
  • Straight-through muffler and higher flow cat than OEM - I would also suggest wrapping the entire thing for that extra 1~2%
  • New Cams (you need to make sure they start making power at 4500RPM or you'll bog down everytime you change gear)
  • New Computer (if you raise your redline to 7000RPM you won't need to change anything internal to cope, and it will make it that much easier to get everything working at the right spot for gear changes)

I would think it likely that the right cams and right computer would net you 15~20bhp so you would be damn close to 100hp/l. I think if you made the right set of 4-1 headers to start working at 4500rpm also you would see another 5~10bhp with it.

It actually surprises me how close this car is to reaching this figure with just the induction kit and exhaust, and still knowing there is a bit more left on the exhaust side.