M42/M44 ITB Kit Design

[thebrelon]

very good job!
that's is so tempting....

May i just warn you against advertising your kit as being M42/44 compatible, or at least to restrict it to E36 as both don't use the same engine managment.
E36 use O2 sensor/knock sensing/MAF (motro 1.7 if my memory is right) while E30 use AFM and some of them are equipped with o2 sensor which means you won't be able to work in closed loop on all E30. and even so i'm not sure that the E30 ECU is as smart as E36 one. so be carefull

otherwise I was wondering if it would be possible to lenghten further the intake by 1 inch to drop the torque peak to around 3800rpm without running into clearance issues. as the power is not dropping at max RPM and to make it a little bit more street-friendly it could be interesting to shift a little bit lower and still fall in the power band...

thank you anyway for all you did so far!

[lambertius]

very good job!
that's is so tempting....

May i just warn you against advertising your kit as being M42/44 compatible, or at least to restrict it to E36 as both don't use the same engine managment.
E36 use O2 sensor/knock sensing/MAF (motro 1.7 if my memory is right) while E30 use AFM and some of them are equipped with o2 sensor which means you won't be able to work in closed loop on all E30. and even so i'm not sure that the E30 ECU is as smart as E36 one. so be carefull

otherwise I was wondering if it would be possible to lenghten further the intake by 1 inch to drop the torque peak to around 3800rpm without running into clearance issues. as the power is not dropping at max RPM and to make it a little bit more street-friendly it could be interesting to shift a little bit lower and still fall in the power band...

thank you anyway for all you did so far!

You're correct about the differences in ECU. The 97-99 Model cars run the DME 5.2, the 91-96 DME 1.7, and I'm not sure about all the E30s. The stock ECU may not work for all the older cars, but for all the Z3s and 97+ E36s it definitely can.

However, it isn't a total loss - the older DME can be reflashed and piggy-backed much easier than the 5.2 since more people have played with the software. The 91-96 cars should be able to run with a gain because they are closed loop, and with the E30 cars the only way to be sure will be to hit up a dyno - but it wouldn't take much to get it all up to spec it anything at all.

As for extending the trumpets, Rama is adjusting the casting mold down a few degrees to allow a bit more clearance for intake length. That will allow people to run the trumpets right up to the strut mount. Though keep in mind, there are no low end losses so its perfectly streetable (but I agree, if I could get the power band to come on a smidge earlier that would be tops!).

Some audio for anyone who is interested

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3sGQyz84uY

You had me at 1st gear. Emailed.

A few questions:How is the stock M44 ECU adapting after a few days?  Any check engine light? 
Might I get 90 hp/L from all my mods?!?!?

No issues, idles smoothly at 600RPM and drives totally street.

I'm off to get an exhaust installed today.

I've heard many rumours, but never seen a before and after dyno - or even anyone saying they dynoed their car. I've heard people claim that the car sees 150-160bhp with just the muffler (which I sincerely hope is true), but I doubt it. I think about 5wkW is a more realistic estimate - if anything at all. If anyone has any experience of numbers with this let me know! Even with a conservative 5wkW estimate, that would equate to 170bhp at the crank which would be a very healthy NA improvement from bolt ons. So here is hoping!

[lambertius]

So not everything went to plan today.

I got the exhaust installed, but I couldn't make the dyno. There were some logistical errors and it didn't work out, and I'm flying back to Perth tomorrow

Now just so that you know I love you, I'll be taking it back to Brintech  (btw, when the kit becomes available, Laurence will be making a few adjustments so that it fits straight-off for road use. So if you're in Sydney and want it installed he will be the guy to talk to - but I suspect he will be re-selling a 'street' kit while I suspect Rama will be selling it with the intention for racing guys to fab up some stuff themselves. This is his website for future reference http://www.brintech.com.au/) and he will be putting a flange on the OEM muffler so that I can swap it back to stock easily. This means that I will be able to a before and after run on the same Dyno in Perth so that we can conclusively know if it works, or if the 15kW legend is true.

For the moment, my thoughts - it sounds terrible for road use, and I kept the stock diameter - jesus its just cabin noise to the extreme. If you're up in the rev range though it sounds like a race car. So if it does turn out to make more power, being able to swap out the parts for a track day will be kind of cool...

-Before putting the exhaust on I thought it would make barely any power if any at all - now I'm confused.

-The first weird thing I noticed is that the idle is 200RPM higher than before, which is very odd since the exhaust shouldn't affect idle.

-Next the muzzle velocity is extreme - I mean, its like being behind a desk fan. The exhaust is moving out of the system with an extremely high velocity.

-The exhaust note has changed the induction note significantly.

-The car is now backfiring and spitting fire out both end on overrun - its actually a bit terrifying. Intake flame-out is a side-effect from wave-tuning, since the pressure pulses can pull fuel out the intake, so it is normal and to be expected. It did it once or twice before, since opening up the exhaust though, its predictable when taking it WOT to the redline.

I believe the car is making more power, but I could just be "hearing" more power because of how overwhelming the exhaust note is from inside the cabin (seriously, it sound epic outside the car).

I have a theory:

If the stock cam timing has any significant intake-exhaust overlap, I may actually be witnessing a very aggressive engine being really opened up. Overlap allows scavenging - this is the process where the velocity of the exiting exhaust begins to draw in fresh air through the intake before the piston has even begun to descend. This explains all the observations.

-The higher RPM could be explained by the volumetric efficiency exceeding the duty cycle of the ICV - meaning the ICV can't operate slow enough to lower the idle further.

-High muzzle velocity increases the effect of scavenging, so if evidence that this effect is happening.

-The insane level of induction note change indicates that that the induction systems has a 'continuity' with the exhaust slightly beyond the bit in the middle.

-Backfiring would indicate that the Injectors may be operating at their limit for AFR

So back to the stock exhaust before I blow up the engine. I don't know if the exhaust makes any difference, but to me I was actually quite taken aback by how aggressive the car sounded and felt after the change. I'm really hoping it isn't in my head. The car was slipping the wheels while turning in 1st gear, something it has never done before.

Believe it or not, the car rumbles at idle like a V8 and it really screams when it revs out. It does not sound like its displacement anymore. Its like a motorbike more than anything.

I'm really curious now to anyone's experience with the M42/4 for the intake/exhaust systems...

[MLM]

May i just warn you against advertising your kit as being M42/44 compatible, or at least to restrict it to E36 as both don't use the same engine managment.
E36 use O2 sensor/knock sensing/MAF (motro 1.7 if my memory is right) while E30 use AFM and some of them are equipped with o2 sensor which means you won't be able to work in closed loop on all E30. and even so i'm not sure that the E30 ECU is as smart as E36 one. so be carefull

Excellent point. To extend on this there are still some odd ball e36's out there which have knock sensors but not O2 so not closed loop guaranteed. Not insurmountable but may catch the odd person out. Also not all E36's have a battery in the boot, some are up front and will require relocation to the boot to fit the air box. There is a very easy fix for this using existing battery tray, only hassle is running the wire. All easy fixes of course.

Good luck on the exhaust dyno runs on your return. Any thought about playing with the cam timing for further gains?



 

[lambertius]

Excellent point. To extend on this there are still some odd ball e36's out there which have knock sensors but not O2 so not closed loop guaranteed. Not insurmountable but may catch the odd person out. Also not all E36's have a battery in the boot, some are up front and will require relocation to the boot to fit the air box. There is a very easy fix for this using existing battery tray, only hassle is running the wire. All easy fixes of course.

Good luck on the exhaust dyno runs on your return. Any thought about playing with the cam timing for further gains?

The O2 sensor is more for emissions than anything else. Just the MAF should be sufficient for sorting out an NA engine since flow:fuel should be a fixed rate no matter what, and the fuel map should be able to sort it out. However, on a more basic EMS there will be more gains available for tuning than with the DME 5.2.

Speaking of DME 5.2, that thing is a wizard - it has nearly brought the new idle back to 600RPM and the power delivery since putting the exhaust in again has changed.

As for the cams, there is really no incentive for me to play with it - for one I can't afford unlimited dyno runs. As it is, this has cost me more time than I intended with all the delays, and the effort to get a dyno run in Perth - as well as money. Also, looking at the dyno results, I really don't see any reason to play with it. The cam runs out at 6000+ RPM so adjusting the power curve up will gain a few kW at a point where they serve no use. The cam seems really well designed for stock RPM, and the ITB kit seems to match the gearing and and RPM very well also.

I went and recorded the exhaust using the pro-audio gear my mate has tonight, and the whole induction-exhaust system is definitely working together. He could see on the meter read out that the induction note was deeper - so something from the exhaust side is definitely affecting the intake side. The backfiring and overrun burble is also quite terrifying considering how benign the car was recently. I suspect that the full system has unlocked the potential of the bit in the middle... I know its not very scientific, but I tried a 0-100km/hr run to at least try and see if there is anything.

-When I had the totally stock setup - the 3.38 Open diff allowed a 9.0~9.5s
-With the 3.45 LSD and ITBS 10~10.3s when totally dry (The reason its slower is because first gear in particular puts a lot more power into spinning up the DMF rather than actual acceleration. F=ma, and since a is larger for the 3.45 the amount of force going into spinning up the DMF is greater for every gear - the taller the gear the less losses since a is smaller, so the early gear use a lot of power)
-Tonight is wet, I couldn't get a good start in first gear, it would break lose every attempt. That said, of the four attempts we had 9.8~10.3s - the car was making up time once the traction set in. I highly suspect the car will be in the low 9s again when it is dry - meaning in the taller gears there will be a real change.

I'll have to see if I can put the 3.38 gear on the LSD, 1st gear is nearly useless with the 3.45. Such a small change, but with the extra power it just kind of revs out.

[Jasonixo]

Thoughts on installing an exhaust temp pickup for the new muffler?  Maybe you're combusting a lot in the exhaust manifold... You should have a few degrees of cam timing to adjust, correct?

[lambertius]

I've just headed from Sydney to Melbourne for a job interview, and will be back to Perth tomorrow. The project has now stalled until I get it back in a month or so.

However, Laurence at Brintech has my car at the moment (he fabbed up the exhaust) and is getting the stock back on there so I can dyno it in Perth. He will be fitting and selling the kits as a package in Sydney, and will probably provide kits with a few extra parts for street use (so if you want it on your road car, you will probably end up getting it from him). Before I left this morning I spoke to him briefly that if he wanted to dyno the car I didn't mind him taking it out after he refitted the stock for a base run, then re-fitting the new kit for the after run. He is keen to sell a whole intake/exhaust package once he knows the setup that works. He told me before he left that if there is any interest on his facebook post he will put in the time to do the runs to know for sure.

So, if you like the idea of buying an Intake kit with all the fittings for street use and and exhaust to compliment the setup - dash over to his facebook post now and let him know! https://www.facebook.com/BrintechCustoms/photos/a.582768531779373.1073741825.461395870583307/882526741803549/?type=1&permPage=1

Leave a comment asking how much for a full exhaust and intake setup installed/shipped to where ever you are in the world! Ask him how much more power you can get from an exhaust with it as well!  Let him know you want it, and he will finish the setup for us and take the guess work out of a full exhaust system!

[thebrelon]

thank you again for taking time to reply and keep us in the loop.

I'm glad to hear rama is going to modify the casting mold. it will make the kit more versatile (street, race, etc...)
I look forward the result of the dyno, before and after exhaust swap... that would definitely put numbers on a long time unanswered question.

keep on! 

EDIt: posted a comment on brintech's FB page... 

[lambertius]

thank you again for taking time to reply and keep us in the loop.

I'm glad to hear rama is going to modify the casting mold. it will make the kit more versatile (street, race, etc...)
I look forward the result of the dyno, before and after exhaust swap... that would definitely put numbers on a long time unanswered question.

keep on! 

EDIt: posted a comment on brintech's FB page... 

Thanks man!

I want to know the answers to all this myself, and the only way I could see myself getting the answers was to do it. It is pretty expensive to outlay $$$$ for ITB kits you don't know will work, or exhausts that have no guarantee of making anything other than noise, so I wanted to know for sure. If the exhaust works out, then to get a full kit fitted for ~$2k that gives 20~30% more power is actually pretty good so having numbers helps everyone. As it is, the ITB kit on its own is pretty good value when you have a guaranteed return of 16% for 1/3rd the rev range.

I couldn't afford this myself, so I've gotten help from RHD and Brintech to make it happen. I've still fronted some of the costs - more than I would've liked - but not the majority. Letting them know that you're interested in the setup is basically why they've taken the risk in putting money into the development. Rama outlayed thousands for the casting molds which need to be adjusted still, and Laurence has done everything for me at low rates to make it affordable for me to follow up. I had to convince them that it was worth them taking a punt because these parts would sell, so you guys letting them know by contacting them with specific queries will go a long way to making sure the whole thing ends well.

Speaking of which, Rama spoke to me saying that he wants to modify his LTW flywheel kit to include a clutch and the correct ring-gear to directly bolt into the M42/4 cars. If that is something you want, let me know. He was saying if there was interest in it he would send me out one to test fitment to ensure it bolts in - no M20 starter motor or adjustments. Just straight-up clutch kit.

[wazzu70]

This kit is fantastic and an example of the good results you get when the parts are engineered and not just fabricated.

Honestly, this kit is making me reconsider the desire to turbo. Now I just need to get the car running again so I can put some money into it again

[K_Wheat]

A direct bolt up clutch and flywheel kit would definatley be something I would consider. It would be worth the money if I don't have to source all the parts to do the conversion myself. I'm glad there are people out there that are developing good stuff for the m42 cars. Keep up the good work!

[lambertius]

This kit is fantastic and an example of the good results you get when the parts are engineered and not just fabricated.

Honestly, this kit is making me reconsider the desire to turbo. Now I just need to get the car running again so I can put some money into it again

Well, if everything goes right with the exhaust, we may see at least 20% total gain from the setup. Its a lot easier than a turbo, and a pretty good return! Plus, there isn't any reason you couldn't be able to use the setup on a turbo anyway. The manifold itself would save a huge amount of effort for installing a turbo - and Rama will be extending this kit into some Turbo fittings anyway!

A direct bolt up clutch and flywheel kit would definatley be something I would consider. It would be worth the money if I don't have to source all the parts to do the conversion myself. I'm glad there are people out there that are developing good stuff for the m42 cars. Keep up the good work!

I'll make sure I keep the thread abreast of the situation with the clutch kit

[lambertius]

Question of curiosity - is anyone actually planning to get this kit once it's rolled out?

[e30eric]

I am, once I have enough funds that is

[K_Wheat]

I would buy a kit if I knew it was compatible with a LHD e30.