Author Topic: better afm position  (Read 5323 times)

318is91turbo

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better afm position
« on: July 09, 2013, 06:29:21 AM »
was looking at my afm last night. and gravity says it all. turned my afm vertical. skinnier up and down than side to side. with the hump side facing up. meaning gravity will help open the flap after 50% throttle roughly. it did make my low rpm driving a bit more of a surgeing. but at spirited driving it defiantly felt stronger across the rpm range.  has anyone else tried this? is it bad for the afm? i thought about flipping it 180 to see if it helped low rpm torque since itd be practically falling open since gravity. all comments welcome. 

psst. our afm are 5 prong plugs. does anyone know what each plugs sends or receives? ive been trying to studie other car forums with maf to better understand everything to a conversion to maf or map.

Slowered318

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2013, 07:16:02 AM »
When I drive up a hill gravity helps to open the AFM flap but it still seems to struggle. LOL

bmwman91

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 01:34:27 PM »
Having the curved section pointing up will cause gravity to pull the door closed, not open. The mass of the door is almost irrelevant above 3000RPM and the orientation makes no difference in terms of performance. I'd put it back to how it was.

The pins are:
1 - +5V reference voltage from ECU
2 - Air flow signal out
3 - LLCO output (not connected on cars with O2 sensor)
4 - Ground
5 - Air temperature thermistor output voltage

Trust me when I say that there is no cheap or easy to way to do a MAF conversion. I developed one, and doing it properly on your own more or less requires an EE degree and some serious microcontroller / DSP programming abilities. On an internally stock M42, there is ZERO power gain from a MAF conversion. The stock sensor is more than big enough and the flap door causes no meaningful restriction.

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318is91turbo

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 04:48:38 PM »
im beginning to think that a manifold absolute pressure(map) sensor wouldnt be that hard to put into our system. both afm and map have 5 volt feed. and a return voltage that does the same thing. low at idle and increasing voltage as vacuum decreases. (flap opens)  honestly i cant see whats making it hard to do the conversion. once i get my hands on a map sensor ill see what i can come up with. i could be wrong. and you gotta be super smart. and a common person cant do it. or maybe your saving the money of a map conversion kit for yourself :P lol jk. thanks but i like to experiment things on my own. wouldnt mind other thoughts on this whole situation. i think im gonna try a honda b18 map sensor. same engine size. roughly same hp and tq. and readily avaliable at my local salvage yard

bmwman91

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2013, 06:52:07 PM »
Don't let my post put you off. Experimenting is a lot of fun. I toyed around with a MAF conversion since 2005 and basically built up a pretty hefty set of EE skills in the process (background is in ME). I am down to provide some input along the way, because there are certain complications that you'll run into as you progress with the project. Getting the car to RUN with a MAF or MAP sensor isn't all that hard. Getting it to run as well as stock is the real challenge, and trying to make it run better is a feat of its own. The main advantage of a MAF or MAP is that you get slightly improved throttle response on a stock engine. I spent the time and money at a dyno to prove that you get no power gain with a MAF on a stock M42. If yours is turbo'ed as your username indicates, then there is some room for power gains, probably. Honestly, you should ditch the stock ECU in that case.

Really, the big bottleneck is the ECU. It is designed for the old, relatively slow AFM, and super fast new sensors are sort of wasted on it. In fact, the new sensors' fast response rates can and will give inputs to the ECU that it cannot properly handle and you'll end up running really lean, to the point of fuel-cut. There is no simple analog way to deal with that in the case of a MAF which has a non-linear output curve. If the MAP sensor you select has linear output, then you can get by with an opamp and some resistors and capacitors to filter the output (if it doesn't have filtering built in). Basically, the ECU seems to sample the air intake signal at around 180Hz based on the oscilloscope captures I observed and the RPMs that caused issues. That means that you really can't have large signal oscillations above 90Hz (Nyquist sampling theorem), and in practice anything higher than 70Hz is trouble for this ECU. 70Hz equates to 2100RPM on a 4 cylinder. New MAFs are so sensitive that they can resolve individual air pulses as intake valves open, and 4 cylinders are really difficult because there is no meaningful intake valve overlap to smooth the pulses out. A MAP sensor will also be very very sensitive to this, probably moreso. So it should be fairly obvious that you need to filter the signal. For a non-linear sensor like a MAF, you need its transfer function and then to apply a filter to the actual air flow values it puts out, rather than its voltage. You could either measure the MAF voltage, convert it to air flow in software, linearize it, kick it out via DAC and then apply an analog filter, or just apply a digitial filter to the air flow value in software and then kick it out after converting that value to its corresponding one in the stock AFM's transfer function. This all of course ignores that the stock setup uses the AFM to measure both volumetric flow rate and intake air temperature (IAT) to determine the mass flow rate, whereas the MAF does not output IAT since that is inherently accounted for so you'll need to figure out what to tell the ECU there. The MAP output is correlated to volumetric flow rate, so you could essentially yank out the IAT sensor and reconnect it. I have also found an equivalent thermistor to the stock one on Digikey if you end up needing one. Anyway, MAPs are awesome since they are simple and produce no obstruction, but the big drawback is that you need to re-tune every time there is any physical change to the intake system since their relationship to air flow basically follows the engine's volumetric efficiency curve.

Sorry about the wall of text. The point is that the conversion is not a simple matter. If you read all of that, get some/most/all of it and still want to work on this then I am happy to give advice. Messing around with this stuff is a lot of fun, but I want to give you a fair warning that you won't come out if it with any meaningful performance improvement aside from better throttle response if your engine is mostly stock. It took me YEARS to learn this and accept it, and it was disappointing. Truly, the best way to take full advantage of a newer air flow sensor is to use a stand-alone ECU with it.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 06:56:43 PM by bmwman91 »

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318is91turbo

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2013, 07:53:25 PM »
i appreciate the wall of text. my car is currently n/a. boost is in the defiant future for sure tho. whether it be an eaton m45/90 or a turbo.
i do plan on toying with the map sensor some more to see if i can come up with anything. my car puts out 1.0-1.1ish volts at idle. and thats what my integra b18a1 put out at idle from its map sensor. im not expecting gains. just preparing for the future. your insight on all of this was an eye opener tho. ill need something to toy with while i save tho. what kind of program are you using to tune/read your ecu?

318is91turbo

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2013, 02:00:44 AM »
bmwman91: just ran into your post about the afm extension thing. happen to have one in my trunk so ill be able to make the map sensor plug and play, if im able to figure it out lol

bmwman91

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2013, 01:59:03 PM »
I haven't used anything to read / interface with the ECU really. I have thought about getting myself an Ostrich and running it with TunerPro. You would probably have some fun looking into that stuff.

Which "AFM Extension" are you referring to?

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318is91turbo

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 02:27:01 AM »
http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=8065.0
this thing. this could be helpful for the map sensor conversion possibly?

318is91turbo

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 02:48:09 AM »
another question. what if you stack the extensions? haha. i hope i find another one at a salvage yard.

bmwman91

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2013, 03:05:06 PM »
Got it.

I would chop out the little plastic thingy and splice it back together (or extend it with some 20ga wire). There is an active filter in there that was used to dampen the AFM's output signal at idle, but it might not play nicely with the MAP sensor. I actually found the PNs for the 7 position connectors.

Male pin housing (AFM side): 12521718125
Female terminal housing + lock (harness side): 12521737668 + 12521718127 (need both as one holds terminals and the other is the lock ring)
Rubber grommet: 12521737944 (basically impossible to get anywhere)
Female 2.5mm terminal: 61131376202
(probably the same thing: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/962981-1/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugzo5PJSfS36Qh%2f2HAJOCLPNKWJDc05sjo%3d )
Male 2.5mm pin: 61131376191
(probably the same thing: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/962971-1/?qs=%2fha2pyFadug%2fRPFdm1lhtxQmAqIg8zSlNa1k9Hur7eI%3d )

You will need some open-barrel terminal crimpers to properly attach wires to these terminals.  The cheapest one I have found is this: http://whiteproducts.com/cetools.shtml It is non-ratcheting, which means that you need some strong hands. You only need to do 5 though. The OEM rubber grommet is also nearly impossible to get from any dealer, so you may just want to hit up a junk yard to find something that fits. I never had any trouble that way. Also, it is a giant pain in the ass to get the terminals back out of the plastic housing and you'll probably destroy the terminals in the process.

If you want to build yourself an adapter harness that connects to the stock harness, you will need:
1 x 12521718125
5 x 61131376191 (honestly, get 10...you will screw a few up in the learning process).....also consider the cheaper ones from Mouser since they are probably the same
1 x 12521737944 (honestly, just find something similar in the junk yard)
Some vinyl wire sheathing, 1/4" inside diameter
20ga wire, you can do it all with 1 color but I recommend getting red, yellow, blue, white and black to match the stock convention
Open-barrel terminal crimpers

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bmwman91

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2013, 03:11:59 PM »
If you end up going that route, want to sell me your AFM extension cord? I want to see if that helps smooth out my idle lol. I hacked mine up years ago.

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318is91turbo

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2013, 11:50:19 PM »
so looking at the afm. on the flap. that silverish thing held on by two screws accessible from the back. what you think would happen if you took off that silver thing and flattened it out, smooth and polished it. im not gonna try but just a thought.  im bored tonight

bmwman91

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Re: better afm position
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2013, 12:12:20 AM »
No idea what would happen.

What I have found is that everything in the intake is deliberate. That little black velocity stack in front of the AFM? It is not restricting anything, and in fact improves flow through the AFM by helping transition incoming air to a laminar flow regime. The volume of the air box? Purposely chosen to provide some intake resonance to improve mid-range torque. One of the most difficult things to accept with these cars is that there is virtually no low-hanging fruit. BMW's cost a lot because BMW puts a lot of work into every aspect. It would be a crime to charge so much for a car without it actually being better than the other stuff out there. I mean really, cars that sold for $22k new in 1991 should not be able to gain 5HP from ripping out the intake box and installing a $30 cone filter. I wasted SOOOOOO much money chasing cheap bolt-ons and other gimmicks, only to find that in the end most things either degrade performance, or just shift the power band around without actually increasing it. I've been messing with these cars for 13 years.

The MOST worthwhile mods are a legitimate performance chip from MarkD or Jim Conforti, and a lightweight flywheel. They make a real difference. Intakes and exhaust sound cool, but do nothing else. Messing with different injectors and changing the cam phasing only ruin gas mileage and make the power band sort of crappy. I've tried it all. Now, I still encourage you to tinker with this stuff since the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Don't let me discourage you! Mistakes are the BEST teachers there are, and I would know lol.

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