Author Topic: Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???  (Read 14458 times)

PeabnutBubber

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 02:57:00 PM »
OK, this is what I got so far. I've been very busy with finals and papers. I don't see any other problems after removing the top timing cover. I don't really want to remove the lower one if I don't have to. The guides look ok and everything else is fine as far as I can see. I want to try to fix the timing today and replace the cam gears and the tensioner. Hopefully it works out! Otherwise... I have to dive in and pull the lower cover :(

bmwman91

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2011, 03:21:40 PM »
If the tensioner piston goes in without any resistance, DO NOT drive the car. It is most likely that the idler sprocket, mentioned above, has had its bearings disintegrate and there is a bunch of slack in the system. Furthermore, the chain will be loose and slap around, and start eating away at the cylinder head casting in the lower corner of where the thermostat sits. Chances are that the chain will need replacement at this point since slapping around causes the rollers to break off...and they may end up in your oil pump. Running with the cams partially unconstrained is also sort of scary. You will want to pull the lower oil pan check for metal. And of course, you really do not want to run the chain at high speed over the idler gear with no bearings...it is just grinding away on its steel hub.

The picture below is what Dave & I are talking about (this was my motor back in May, EXACT same symptoms). It failed about 1/4 mile from my parking space (that is when I started noticing the engine noise anyway). In the morning, I popped the tensioner piston to check it, put it back and ran it for 3 seconds. It was LOUD!



See thread here: http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13574

Seriously though, don't drive it anymore until you fix this, or you will completely destroy the motor. Good luck, keep up updated!

Oh, and here is a strong recommendation: buy a magnetic oil pan drain plug. See the picture in my linked thread for why...all six bearings were right there. It is also helpful if the chain starts to fall apart.

EDIT: You mentioned that you didn't find any big stuff in the oil pan. The tensioner still goes in without any resistance though, right? Weird. Maybe one of the side guide rails disintegrated or something. I am not sure if the chain jumped a tooth or not on the cam gears. The motor will actually run with pistons hitting valves (ask me how I know lol). It is NOISY all the time and sounds like a diesel engine. I don't think that it happened to you from what you say. If you want some tips for getting it all to TDC, there are a few ways to get it there / check it easily.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 03:38:20 PM by bmwman91 »

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PeabnutBubber

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 09:49:57 PM »
Thanks a lot for the info and pictures, bmwman. I haven't driven it since it started making that noise other than to drive it home. I guess I'll just suck it up and take everything apart. :/ So I'm going to go ahead and order the deflection wheel (idler sprocket) and maybe a couple order things preemptively and return them if unnecessary. It's so expensive though!

I THINK everything else is okay. Part of me just wants to order all the new parts necessary and overhaul the whole timing deal while I'm in there. It's an old car with probably over 200,000 miles on it so who knows what's been replaced and when.

The guide rails on the sides seemed to be intact so you are probably right; The problem is lower than I would have hoped. Probably that idler sprocket. I'm ordering it now. And maybe everything else too...Thanks for the help and your pictures are awesome. SUPER helpful. I'll try to take pictures tomorrow of what I find but it just depends on whether or not my girlfriend is around.. or at least her camera. I'll update with what I find.

d.hitchcock

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 09:59:57 PM »
I'm laying plans for this project after the New Year. New timing chain, sprockets, rails, tensioner, water pump, main seal, etc.

I can obtain the specialty tools locally.

I'm anticipating this being a full day's work, but no more.

(For background, I've pulled and installed an M20 from my other e30 and I've done a fair amount of work on that engine, as well as about everything else on that car. Plus I have a great buddy who happens to be an excellent mechanic with a very well-equipped shop.)

I'm thinking if we start in the morning, we're reassembling the engine by lunch.

Sound about right?
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bmwman91

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 10:25:32 PM »
Quote from: PeabnutBubber;108915
Thanks a lot for the info and pictures, bmwman. I haven't driven it since it started making that noise other than to drive it home. I guess I'll just suck it up and take everything apart. :/ So I'm going to go ahead and order the deflection wheel (idler sprocket) and maybe a couple order things preemptively and return them if unnecessary. It's so expensive though!

I THINK everything else is okay. Part of me just wants to order all the new parts necessary and overhaul the whole timing deal while I'm in there. It's an old car with probably over 200,000 miles on it so who knows what's been replaced and when.

The guide rails on the sides seemed to be intact so you are probably right; The problem is lower than I would have hoped. Probably that idler sprocket. I'm ordering it now. And maybe everything else too...Thanks for the help and your pictures are awesome. SUPER helpful. I'll try to take pictures tomorrow of what I find but it just depends on whether or not my girlfriend is around.. or at least her camera. I'll update with what I find.
Yeah, that stupid little sprocket is expensive! I was pissed when I found out how much one was.

My recommendation is to replace EVERYTHING while in there so you will never need to worry about it again. I also recommend using some Permatex gasket sealer on all paper gaskets for reassembly. I took everything apart & scraped all the crap off, and I didn't want it leaking again. I like this stuff since it is high-temp and resists motor fluids.
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/auto_Permatex_High_Tack_Spray-A-Gasket_Sealant.htm
It is also nice because you can get a nice even coating. The brush-on version is also good, but can be messy.

Also, reinstalling the upper cover is a little less straight forward than you might think. You need to compress it on the profile gasket so that it is flush with the head. You do this with some M6 screws & washers and the valve cover. Thread all upper cover bolts, but leave them a little loose so the cover can move around a little. Remove the VC gasket and use the washers / screws to clamp the valve cover down onto the top of the upper cover and press it flush with the head. Then tighten the upper cover bolts.

When using the sealer, be careful when reinstalling the covers. The gaskets can slide around as they are squeezed and end up half out! Tighten all cover bolts hand-tight, then make another pass at them with the ratchet tightening them a little more. Make 3-4 passes to get them to full tightness, and you should be fine. Don't tighten one fully and then proceed to the next loose one or you may end up cracking the cover.

Quote from: d.hitchcock;108916
I'm laying plans for this project after the New Year. New timing chain, sprockets, rails, tensioner, water pump, main seal, etc.

I can obtain the specialty tools locally.

I'm anticipating this being a full day's work, but no more.

(For background, I've pulled and installed an M20 from my other e30 and I've done a fair amount of work on that engine, as well as about everything else on that car. Plus I have a great buddy who happens to be an excellent mechanic with a very well-equipped shop.)

I'm thinking if we start in the morning, we're reassembling the engine by lunch.

Sound about right?

Well, it depends. If you just want to slam through it and put it all back together, it will be a FULL day if you have a helper. If this is your first time, it is going to be a weekend project if you want to do it right. If you decide to pull the timing case off and replace the gasket behind it, then this is at least a weekend job. Getting it back in can be done without removing the cylinder head, but it is a nerve-wracking pain. If you decide to do that, ask me for some advice.

If you want to do the overhaul and clean every part thoroughly and repair all of the (probably) stripped valve cover bolt holes, and any others in the head (which are likely), this is a 2-4 day job for a first-timer. You will also want to pull the lower oil pan and check for debris, and most importantly, check the upper pan bolts around the pick-up sump. Those have a tendency to strip / fall out (which can lead to an implosion of the gasket around the pick-up in the upper pan), and you may need to do some thread repair in the bottom of the timing case. That requires removal of the upper oil pan, and is a pain in the ass to get off of the car.

Anyway, I can give more advice if you decide to do that stuff. Just start a thread when you do.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 10:29:48 PM by bmwman91 »

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d.hitchcock

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2011, 10:36:20 PM »
Thanks a ton, man.

That helps me plan properly for the project.

I will start a thread when I'm ordering all the bits and getting all the sundry extras I'll need lined up.

I like to do as much prep as possible -- buying all the necessary bolts and nuts and so forth in advance, being ready for the typical "surprises" that crop up, etc., and your advice is already very valuable.

Cheers,
dh
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monko141

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2011, 09:40:57 AM »
Don't forget the new correct bolt for the right side guide rail 07 11 9 919 629.  It is 5mm longer than the original to compensate for the adjusting screw.  And if I was trying to do the job in one day I would have a spare one of these 07 11 9 919 941.  I have had to use vice grips to get it off an m42 I have broken down.

d.hitchcock

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2011, 10:05:17 AM »
This stuff is pure gold, monko. Many thanks.

dh
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bmwman91

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2011, 11:34:38 AM »
monko, that's very interesting about the 45mm M6 screw for the guide rail. I bet that using the original 40mm one is why I ended up with stripped threads in the head!

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PeabnutBubber

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2011, 07:39:54 PM »
A buddy of mine and I just removed the upper and lower timing case covers and it took about 5-6 hours. He's had some experience and it was my first time. The loosening of the crank bolt was hilariously barbaric but pretty easy following the Brendan Purcell instructions. That's pretty much what I followed the whole time (and it's really nice and straight forward) but he doesn't say anything about removing the A/C compressor and the bracket which more or less has to be removed in order to pull out the lower cover. In the pictures it doesn't even look like he had one anyway haha.

Ok. Here is what we found. I'll go ahead and show you the good news first.



The idler sprocket /deflection wheel / tensioner sprocket is totally fine! In fact, it looks pretty new.

However, there was a slight issue that was immediately noticeable when the lower cover finally popped off. The bad news:



You may be able to tell my dismay from the picture.



So. This is where I am at now. I was crossing my fingers so badly to get back on the road again soon so this is pretty disappointing. So this thing was literally just bouncing around in the timing case and that's what was making all the noise. Sounds kind of crazy to me I think. I haven't researched this yet, (I just finished with exams today) but is the timing case a pop-off and replace kind of deal or what? Is this a head removal job? Should I just forget it and go for a new engine? I need some help I think.

On the plus side, the BMW dealership called today and told me they didn't have the idler sprocket so they totally refunded me.:p However, I have a new timing chain, rails, and upper and lower timing cover gaskets on the way from FCPEuro. (Awesome customer service from what I can tell btw)

I'm hoping this is just a new timing case deal. I miss my car.

PeabnutBubber

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2011, 01:03:21 PM »
I think I have a post that got caught in the filter but when it's up, you can see what I found in my timing case...

d.hitchcock

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2011, 02:42:06 PM »
Quote from: PeabnutBubber;108969
I think I have a post that got caught in the filter but when it's up, you can see what I found in my timing case...


Do tell!
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PeabnutBubber

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2011, 03:06:34 PM »
Quote from: d.hitchcock;108974
Do tell!



I'll just let it be a surprise, I think :D

d.hitchcock

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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2011, 04:55:48 PM »
subscribed ... :D
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DesktopDave

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Extended tensioner slides in w/o force???
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2011, 05:51:41 PM »
I approved it.  Maybe a little Elmer's will fix that up?

Glad you caught that before the motor munched eight valves...
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