Author Topic: How many of you run 87 octane fuel?  (Read 40832 times)

futron.sim

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2008, 03:37:39 AM »
Quote from: EN318isPDX;49284
Basically what I was trying to say if you run crappy gas you increase the wear on your internals..its not massive but would you not change your oil because it saves you 2 dollars?


I personally don't think lower RON value means the gas is crappy. Afterall, the purpose of RON value has nothing to do with fuel quality, higher value only means the fuel is more resistance against detonation.

However, manufacturers may include addictives inside fuels with higher RON values. Take my country for eg. Shell offers 92, 95, 98 and V-power (quoted value is 100). V-power is quoted as having additives added to reduce friction and clean intake valves and combustion chambers. Such additives was not quoted on lower grade fuels. 92 and 95 petrol do not have any performance enhancing additives quoted.

Thus I think the main difference is not due to the quality of the petrol but rather the additional chemicals added into the petrol to your engine perform better.

Cobra Jet

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2008, 11:47:26 AM »
original CNN link: http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/12/autos/ways_to_not_save_gas/index.htm?postversion=2008051315

Article copied & pasted from link:

6 gas-saving myths

Sure you want to save gas, but there's a lot of bad advice on how to do it. Some of it makes no difference, and some of it can wind up costing you.
     
By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: May 13, 2008: 3:11 PM EDT


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- With gasoline prices hitting record levels, it seems everyone has a tip on how to save fuel. Much of the advice is well-intentioned, but in the end, much of it won't lower your gas bill.

Here's a look at a few misconceptions:

#1. Fill your tank in the morning
You may have heard that it's best to fill your gas tank in the early morning while the fuel is cold. The theory goes that fluids are more dense at lower temperatures, so a gallon of cold gas actually has more gas molecules than a gallon of warmer gas.

But the temperature of the gasoline as it comes out of the nozzle varies little during the course of the day, according to Consumer Reports, so there's little, if any, benefit, to getting up early to pump gas.

#2. Change your air filter
Maintaining your car is important, but a clean air filter isn't going to save you any gas. Modern engines have computer sensors that automatically adjust the fuel-air mixture as an increasingly clogged air filter chokes off the engine's air supply.

While engine power will decrease slightly as the air filter becomes clogged, a lack of performance or an increase in fuel consumption will be negligible, Consumer Reports says.

#3. Use premium fuel
With prices already over $4.00 a gallon, premium gasoline is a hard sell these days. But a lot of drivers think because their owners' manual recommends premium, they'll get better fuel economy if they stick with it. Really, they're paying more money for nothing.

Even cars for which premium is recommended won't suffer with regular fuel. Modern engine technology comes to the rescue again. When sensors detect regular instead of premium fuel, the system automatically adjusts spark plug timing. The result is a slight reduction in peak horsepower - really, you'll never notice - but no reduction in fuel economy.

#4. Pump up your tires
Proper tire inflation is important for a number of reasons. Under-inflated tires are bad for handling and can even cause a crash. Improper tire inflation also causes tires to wear out faster and to heat up more, which could trigger a dangerous high-speed blow-out.

According to on-the-road driving tests by both Consumer Reports and auto information site Edmunds.com, underinflated tires reduce fuel economy, so proper inflation is key.

But you should never over-inflate your tires. They'll get you slightly better fuel economy because there will be less tread touching the road, reducing friction. But that means less grip for braking and turning. The added risk of a crash isn't worth the extra mile a gallon you might gain.

#5. To A/C or not A/C
There's no question air-conditioning makes extra work for the engine, increasing fuel use. But car air conditioners are much more efficient today than they used to be. In around-town driving, using the A/C will drop fuel economy by about a mile a gallon.

Meanwhile, driving at higher speeds with the windows down greatly increases aerodynamic drag. As speed increases, drag becomes more of an issue, making A/C use the more efficient choice at high speeds.

At most speeds and in most vehicles, A/C use drains slightly more fuel than driving with the windows down, contends David Champion, head of auto testing for Consumer Reports. "My final take on is that it's very close," says Phil Reed, consumer advice editor for Edmunds.com. "It's hard to measure the difference and every vehicle is different."

The best choice - if temperature and humidity allow - is to keep the windows rolled up and to turn the A/C compressor off. You can keep the fans running to blow in air from the outside, but your car will be as aerodynamic as possible while still letting you breathe. You will save gas, but the fuel economy improvement will be slight.

#6. Bolt-ons and pour-ins
Before you buy a device that's supposed to make your car more fuel-efficient or pour in an allegedly gas-saving additive, ask yourself this: Don't you think oil and car companies aren't doing everything they can to beat their competitors?

If BP (BP) could add something to its gasoline that made cars go farther on a gallon, cars would be lining up at the company's pumps. Sure, people would burn their fuel-saving BP gas more slowly, but then they'd drive right past rivals' gas stations to come back to BP for more. BP stations could even charge more for their gas and still sell tons of the stuff.

So if there really was an additive that made gas burn up more slowly, it wouldn't be sold over the Internet one bottle at a time.

Likewise, car companies are already spending big bucks to increase fuel mileage. If General Motors could make its cars go significantly farther on a gallon simply by putting a device into the fuel line, don't think for a second it wouldn't be doing that. GM's car sales would go through the roof.

"There are a number of these gas-saving devices that are generally useless," says Champion.

But drivers who try them will swear they work. In reality, it's probably an automotive placebo effect, says Reed. Buy one of these devices or additives, and you're like to pay extreme attention to your fuel economy and how you drive.

Of course it can't hurt to keep a close eye on your driving habits -- and what kind of car you drive. In the end, that can make the most difference in saving gas.

~~~
- Phil
1994 Cobra coupe #0013
2011 Genesis Coupe
2011 Tucson GLS

EN318isPDX

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2008, 12:03:57 PM »
The reason I run chevron premium is because its not like that shell trash. Chev gas is better because it doesnt sit in the tank for a week. Its cleaner and thus provides better explosions. Riddle me this. My buddy has an evo x and chipped it to 320hp at the wheels. Now should he run regular? No? Should he not use synthetic? No! I get what your saying cobra. If you want to save money like a goldstein run regular and drive like a grandma but I believe you should drive a non turbo base model volvo. I feel bad for anyone who uses crappy oil and crappy gas




Ps. His all aluminum engine is only 9:1 so certainly he doesnt need 92 or better. Hmmmm his air intake is in the middle of the hood. Must be cold! As cold as an sti's intercooler
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 12:15:20 PM by EN318isPDX »
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nomad

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2008, 12:39:04 PM »
Quote from: Cobra Jet;49313

#3. Use premium fuel
With prices already over $4.00 a gallon, premium gasoline is a hard sell these days. But a lot of drivers think because their owners' manual recommends premium, they'll get better fuel economy if they stick with it. Really, they're paying more money for nothing.

Even cars for which premium is recommended won't suffer with regular fuel. Modern engine technology comes to the rescue again. When sensors detect regular instead of premium fuel, the system automatically adjusts spark plug timing. The result is a slight reduction in peak horsepower - really, you'll never notice - but no reduction in fuel economy.
~~~


I'm totally with you here.... BUT.... our cars do not have knock sensors and cannot retard timing when pre-detonation is sensed. Sorry, if we drove the more modern M44 we'd be OK. E30 M42, no such luck.
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nomad

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2008, 12:43:21 PM »
Dude, you do know that's a turbo right? 9:1 comp with turbo to 320hp is pushing over 1 bar pressure. I'm with you on sticking with 91 to be safest in the M42 but that is the worst comparison/argument I've ever heard! :D

Nothing personal though.



And oh yeah, you can leave out the racial slurs, keep it civil.

Quote from: EN318isPDX;49315
The reason I run chevron premium is because its not like that shell trash. Chev gas is better because it doesnt sit in the tank for a week. Its cleaner and thus provides better explosions. Riddle me this. My buddy has an evo x and chipped it to 320hp at the wheels. Now should he run regular? No? Should he not use synthetic? No! I get what your saying cobra. If you want to save money like a goldstein run regular and drive like a grandma but I believe you should drive a non turbo base model volvo. I feel bad for anyone who uses crappy oil and crappy gas




Ps. His all aluminum engine is only 9:1 so certainly he doesnt need 92 or better. Hmmmm his air intake is in the middle of the hood. Must be cold! As cold as an sti's intercooler
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 12:47:56 PM by nomad »
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EN318isPDX

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2008, 12:53:23 PM »
Obviously it was a drastic conparison but what i was trying to prove is even in 2008 the factory can design an engine that requires 92. Now even in 10 years should he stop running premium to save a few dollars? I believe if you care enough about your car to change the oil yourself you may as well pay the extra 20 cents a gallon. if it states on the gas lid to run water would you pour gas in?
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Cobra Jet

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2008, 12:59:32 PM »
Quote from: EN318isPDX;49315
I get what your saying cobra. If you want to save money like a goldstein run regular and drive like a grandma but I believe you should drive a non turbo base model volvo. I feel bad for anyone who uses crappy oil and crappy gas


All I'm saying is this:

The M42 WILL RUN FINE on 87 octane - others have also used 87 octane w/o issues as well - not only on this forum, but MANY other BMW forums...

Some of you are blowing it out of proportion.  Just because the owner's manual states to use "91" does not mean that the vehicle cannot and will not operate properly on 87, 89, etc...  Remember, the fuel technology has ADVANCED since these cars have been built.  Sure, the manual can say use this fuel or that oil - but as you, I and others know and can read in any forum or online tech article - many vehicles (and vehicle owners) have used fuels, additives & oil other than those specified in such owner's manuals.  I also stated in the original thread that IF your M42 is anything other than a STOCK naturally aspirated M42 that this thread may not be to your benefit or interest...

I'm also not trying to start any online "arguments", just a discussion - which has shown that others have successfully used 87 in their M42 w/o any adverse effects.

Here's two other interesting things to think about:

1) isn't 91 octane in Germany THE lowest octane fuel available at fuel station pumps?  Hmmm....

2) 91 "RON" octane is equivalent to U.S. 87 CLC octane (here's an interesting article from 1997 - regardless of vehicle discussed, the RON & CLC info is the important factoids in this article and would apply to ANY vehicle...): http://type2.com/bartnik/octane.htm


:D
- Phil
1994 Cobra coupe #0013
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2011 Tucson GLS

tjts1

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2008, 01:35:30 PM »
Quote from: EN318isPDX;49315
Ps. His all aluminum engine is only 9:1 so certainly he doesnt need 92 or better. Hmmmm his air intake is in the middle of the hood. Must be cold! As cold as an sti's intercooler
LOL
You're comparing a naturally aspirated 130hp 20 year old engine to a new direct injection, turbocharged 300hp engine. Congratulations. You're clueless.
Quote from: nomad;49319
I'm totally with you here.... BUT.... our cars do not have knock sensors and cannot retard timing when pre-detonation is sensed. Sorry, if we drove the more modern M44 we'd be OK. E30 M42, no such luck.
155k miles and counting on 87 octane says you're wrong.
Quote from: EN318isPDX;49322
Obviously it was a drastic conparison but what i was trying to prove is even in 2008 the factory can design an engine that requires 92.
So what happens to evo owners in California where the highest octane you can get is 91? Should they not drive their cars?
$5 says if push comes to shove, the evo would run just fine on 87 as well. The ecu would retard timing and cut boost but the engine would be ok. In fact I'm willing to bet every last car sold in America will run on 87 octane for a very long time without engine damage.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 01:46:32 PM by tjts1 »
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EN318isPDX

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2008, 01:42:55 PM »
Quote from: tjts1;49331
LOL
You're comparing a naturally aspirated 130hp 20 year old M42 to a new direct injection turbo engine. Congratulations. You are officially clueless.


I'm not comparing the 2 I'm comparing the idea of requiring premium fuel. They engineered it a certain way, I'm trying to say if they recommend it do it. If they require it you have to be a moron to run a dirty fuel. Learn sarcasim
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tjts1

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2008, 01:48:06 PM »
Quote from: EN318isPDX;49332
I'm not comparing the 2 I'm comparing the idea of requiring premium fuel. They engineered it a certain way, I'm trying to say if they recommend it do it. If they require it you have to be a moron to run a dirty fuel. Learn sarcasim
BWAHAHA! Ur hilarious. Dirty fuel?
You think the difference between 92 octane and 87 octane is dirt? We could all filter our fuel and magically turn 87 into 92. WOW, what a great idea!
LOL
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 01:51:28 PM by tjts1 »
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EN318isPDX

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2008, 01:51:18 PM »
155k on 87 and I bet my 200k 92 octane has a bigger epeen I mean hp. To each his own but this thread is stupid. Let's recommend bad things openly! Don't change your oil until 20k!! Save 10 dollars in 4 months!
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EN318isPDX

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2008, 01:56:28 PM »
Quote from: tjts1;49334
BWAHAHA! Ur hilarious. Dirty fuel?
You think the difference between 92 octane and 87 octane is dirt? We could all filter our fuel and magically turn 87 into 92. WOW, what a great idea!
LOL


dirty meaning it sits in Arco's tank. Why do arco charge 15 cents less per gallon? Because there fuel sits for weeks and it becomes lower octane. I'm no chemist but this is easy to understand
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Cobra Jet

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2008, 02:00:41 PM »
before this gets any more "heated" - and in case it has been missed:



91 "RON" octane is equivalent to U.S. 87 CLC octane (here's an interesting article from 1997 - regardless of vehicle discussed, the RON & CLC info is the important factoids in this article and would apply to ANY vehicle...): http://type2.com/bartnik/octane.htm

The above is also discussed on MANY forums and by googling the RON vs CLC measurements, there's tons of info where it seems that "91" overseas is the equivalent to "87" here in the U.S. (or visa versa)...

Do read the link.
- Phil
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tjts1

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2008, 02:06:12 PM »
I'm sorry but the only person to bring up oil changes into this discussion is you. Thus far, you haven't been able to make a single compelling argument. You haven't provided any evidence to support your argument, you've made completely outlandish comparisons and you seem to think that using 87 octane is akin to 20k mile oil changes. And no offense but your grammar and spelling are not helping your argument.

I'll repeat my position in order to avoid any confusion. The previous owner of my car used 87 octane for 140k miles before I bought it without a hitch. When I bought the car I started by using 91 octane then reduced octane in order to see how it affects power and fuel economy. In stock form, this engine begins to knock on 89 octane at around 90f and 70f on on 87 octane.
The reason BMW recommends using only 91 octane is because the stock air intake is purposely designed to suck in hot air from the radiator between 122-158f.

Column 2, line 3
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3159/2475132424_885e9f276f_o.jpg

With a cold air intake, you can bring the temperature inside the airbox to about 0-5f above ambient and safely use 87 octane at all times. So far I've driven my car on 87 up to 90f without a hint of knock or loss of power.
If you don't believe me you can easily use your outside temp sensor from inside the left side brake duct, and put it inside the airbox. This will allow you to monitor your intake temperature at all times through the OBC.
Quote from: Cobra Jet;49337
91 "RON" octane is equivalent to U.S. 87 CLC octane (here's an interesting article from 1997 - regardless of vehicle discussed, the RON & CLC info is the important factoids in this article and would apply to ANY vehicle...): http://type2.com/bartnik/octane.htm


Unfortunately in the US BMW defines "91 octane" as RON+MON/2. Thats 95 ron on the other side of the pond.

Quote from: EN318isPDX;49336
dirty meaning it sits in Arco's tank. Why do arco charge 15 cents less per gallon? Because there fuel sits for weeks and it becomes lower octane. I'm no chemist but this is easy to understand
Arco charges 15 cents less because they don't take credit cards, only debit. And on debit card transactions there is a 35 cent fee. Its in the fine print on every pump.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 02:20:33 PM by tjts1 »
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Cobra Jet

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How many of you run 87 octane fuel?
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2008, 02:07:24 PM »
Quote from: EN318isPDX;49336
dirty meaning it sits in Arco's tank. Why do arco charge 15 cents less per gallon? Because there fuel sits for weeks and it becomes lower octane. I'm no chemist but this is easy to understand


Not to get off topic, however:

I'm sure fuel across the world sits for more than "weeks" after it has been refined and processed into the storage tanks.  This statement does not only apply to one Oil/Fuel company or certain parts of the world, it's just factual.  There is no such thing as "freshly brewed" fuel, after all of the refining and processing, it's all pumped into storage facilities, of which tankers are filled and then it's transported to where ever...

Do you think the inside of a fuel tanker truck is 100% clean?  Nope.  How about those storage tanks (both above and below ground)?  Nope.  There's sediment, condensation, etc. that can and most likely does occur in those metal storage facilities & containers, be it stationary or mobile.  Sediment settles to the bottom of any storage tank, so most likely, nearly every oil/fuel company out there has "dirty" fuel - to what degree of "dirty", who knows and is anyone's guess.

(also, oil changing has nothing to do with the thread topic... can we kindly skip off that subject)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 02:11:48 PM by Cobra Jet »
- Phil
1994 Cobra coupe #0013
2011 Genesis Coupe
2011 Tucson GLS