Author Topic: S50 Valve Q's (Read 10450 times)

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #15 on:** May 18, 2008, 04:32:08 PM »

Boyracer
Can you measure the weight of the valves for us?
What about s52 valves? have they been tried, or are they the same as the s50?

It'd be great if we could find a set of OEM valves that are light, strong and will work well with an m42/44...BMW have build enough sporty road cars for there to be at least one good set for us to use!

Personally, i love projects that are innovative and are clever enough to reuse oem parts, anybody can buy parts off the shelf but it takes real skill to search through a manufactures parts bin and come out with a bitchin car.
Im building mine like that for three reasons.
1) the price of oem parts is much cheaper than aftermarket
2) to be innovative
3) if im on a weekend at the nurburgring and i warp a disc, id like to be able to drive to the bmw dealer and pic up a new disc, rather than searching desperately for a shop that carriers the aftermarket brand that im using.

Great thread guys

nuvolarossa · « **Reply #16 on:** May 18, 2008, 05:53:20 PM »

... updated in my next post;)

kowalski · « **Reply #17 on:** May 18, 2008, 06:22:12 PM »

nice, but you forgot to add the length of the valves.

mkodama · « **Reply #18 on:** May 18, 2008, 08:51:58 PM »

Wow, thanks thanks for sharing nuvolarossa! Good info!

So if dealing with the different length valves isn't too hard, then switching to M62B44 inlet and exhaust valves would make a big difference. I'm betting there would be a noticeable difference in air flowing through intake side.

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But for the people with engine's prior to 9/1992 there are even more advantages.

Another big advantage is the weight:

-M42B18 (before 9/1992)
Intake valves: 58 grams x 8 valves = 464 grams
Exhaust valvles: 54 grams x 8 valves = 432 grams
Total: 896 grams

-M62B44
Intake valves: 50 grams x 8 valves = 400 grams
Exhaust valves: 46 grams x 8 valves = 368 grams
Total: 768 grams

That means a reduction of 128 grams or 0.28lbs pounds! And less weight means less wear and the ability to go to slightly higher RPMS!!!
(Now if only there were some lighter mechanical lifters and springs to go along with this setup:rolleyes: but that might be for another thread.)

On top of that, the valve stems of the M62B44 are 6mm in diameter while the pre-9/1992 M42 has 7mm diameter valve stems. So less resistance and more air flowing through the head!

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But the larger valves brings something else to my mind, would the pistons need to be pocketed to avoid any clearance related problems?

Boyracer · « **Reply #19 on:** May 19, 2008, 01:50:19 AM »

I think ETK does not list valve lenghts, hence need for measuring them. Then there is also different grooves for valve retainer collets etc. which are not mentioned in ETK.

I think I will go M62B44 route. OEM parts are cheap, cheaper than aftermarket parts. Since I have 6 mm valve stem engine, I can leave exhaust side pretty much standard.

Exhaust:

8 x 6 mm valve guide + installation

Intake:

8 x 6 mm valve guide + installation
8 x M62B44 35 mm valve seat OEM
8 x M62B44 35 mm valve OEM

Question really is, how I can solve the problem with 2,5 mm shorter valve. I am going to use solid lifters so hyrdaulic lifter adjustment range is not a problem.

The problem is that valve spring must go to space that is 2,5 mm shorter than stock. With stock camshaft that might not be enough to cause coil bind but seat pressure would be too high and any really aggressive cam with big lift is going to give problems.

Two options are to find springs that fit better to shorter space or machining cylinder head so that the stock springs sit 2,5 mm deeper on head.

As for valve cutouts on pistons, it would be very good idea to check them! Especially if you use larger lift too. But those cutouts should be quite easy to be enlarged. I use W�ssner race pistons which already have valve cutouts for huge lifts and 36 mm valves so I'm all set.

Also, I am going to overbore then engine 84 mm -> 86 mm which should mean that 35 mm valves clear the cylinder block edges. If you stay with 84 mm bore you should check there is enough clearance in there too.

nuvolarossa · « **Reply #20 on:** May 19, 2008, 02:24:58 AM »

be ready for some serious informations! Working on it now.

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #21 on:** May 19, 2008, 05:10:33 AM »

Sounds good nuvola

Thanks for the first chart, im now looking forward to the new thing you have on the way

Just as a question, is there any further weight savings to be made by going to aftermarket valves? 50 grams does seem very light but is there any huge difference between these and an aftermarket alternative?
Ive searched through a few valve company's websites but none of them so far have listed valve weight.

Does anybody know what material the m62 valves are made from?

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #22 on:** May 19, 2008, 05:20:17 AM »

I found a page of information on the supertech website, again not listing valve weights but listing length and dia.
http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/supertech/valvetrain.html
How about valves from a different manufacturer?
It seems like the s2000 or the RSX/integra valves might fit. They are longer but they can be machined......just keeping my options open

nuvolarossa · « **Reply #23 on:** May 19, 2008, 05:31:11 AM »

NEW TABLE UPDATED, pdf to downlaod:

http://robmw.altervista.org/_altervista_ht/bmwvalves.pdf

tell me if link works!:D

now need to find info about S5x and M62bxx:(

can a intake diesel valve be fitted in a petrol engine if dimensions are right? I mean for strength/materials...:confused:

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #24 on:** May 19, 2008, 05:47:15 AM »

Thanks for the new chart nuvola

Seeing as the m62 seems to be where we are moving towards, have you guys considered the s62? It was a modefied version of the m62 used in the e39 m5.

Update: i checked in real oem and apparently it uses the same valves.
Different part number but same valve stem and seat width....the different part numbers might mean different valves lengths?
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DE92&mospid=47550&btnr=11_2662&hg=11&fg=25
Also it uses hydraulic lifters rather than the solid type i was hoping for

nuvolarossa · « **Reply #25 on:** May 19, 2008, 06:09:52 AM »

dunno about s62 valve length... know only that they are 35mm/6mm

kowalski · « **Reply #26 on:** May 20, 2008, 01:24:52 AM »

link doesn't work:(
I would assume that a diesel valve would be fine, but I could be wrong... is there any way you could find out what the valve is made out of?

mkodama · « **Reply #27 on:** May 20, 2008, 03:02:31 AM »

Quote from: nuvolarossa;49662

dunno about s62 valve length... know only that they are 35mm/6mm

I would bet they are the same as the M62 or shorter. bmwparts.info lists the valves as 48 grams, 2 grams lighter than the M62 valves.

Just looked it up, BMW S54B32 (E46 M3) intake valves also have a 35 mm seat and 6 mm stem. They are listed at 51 grams so they might be longer, enabling cutting to length and what not to make them fit.

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And another possible selection (though expensive and high quality) is Ferrea valves. They have blank valves you can purchase in either titanium or a steel alloy. Also since the valves are blank, it would avoid any problems with sizing and fitment. But they do cost a lot, $20-$40 per steel valve and $100+ per titanium valve. Hehe, 16 titanium valves would be around $2000

Part# / Type / Head Dia. / Stem Dia. / Length / Tip Length / References
Titanium:

Competition Plus (steel alloy?):

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People with the pre-9/92 M42's already are switching from 7 mm stems to 6 mm, so why not go a step further and go to 5 mm stems? This switch would save a lot of weight if it worked/was possible.

mkodama · « **Reply #28 on:** May 20, 2008, 03:10:18 AM »

Quote from: kowalski;49734

link doesn't work:(
I would assume that a diesel valve would be fine, but I could be wrong... is there any way you could find out what the valve is made out of?

From the quick research I found, BMW diesels use much smaller valves. The 3 liter M57 diesel in the E46 330d, has an intake valve only 25 mm in diameter.

You can find what a valve is made out of, but it would probably require sacrificing a valve to do that.

In general, most valves are a steel alloy, and then there is the occasional racing valve made of titanium.

Letsplayskatch · « **Reply #29 on:** May 21, 2008, 09:05:29 AM »

Excellent information here guys, more information on these few pages than there has ever been on our M42/M44's - great to see!

Quote

People with the pre-9/92 M42's already are switching from 7 mm stems to 6 mm, so why not go a step further and go to 5 mm stems? This switch would save a lot of weight if it worked/was possible.

If using a smaller diameter stem, wouldnt that cause problems? Is it safe to use a 1mm undersize stem in the stock guide? To then use a 5mm stem in a 7mm guide is asking for trouble, sureley :confused: :confused: just throwing it out there!

I think the main route here is the M62B44 really - just need to get length right for the collets.

Boyracer - why not go for the larger tappets from an M50? They flow more oil as you may already know. For springs, try MM's beehive ones. I know, i too would rather findout for myself where they come from instead of buying from MM - but all i can find are Mustang BeeHive springs...and im unsure if they'd fit. So im leaning toward the MM ones at the moment. I'm sure theyd be able to cope with, say, an extra 1mm lift.

We should distill all of the information on this page and put it on its own website

Scott