Author Topic: fuel pump/non-start issues - been doing lots of research, still NEED HELP... please >  (Read 44132 times)

Cobra Jet

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Quote from: RED IS 91;48425
Well ,I just went out and tested .
1) extra crank ps =  500 ohms
2) crank ps in good running car = 525 ohms
3) extra camshaft ps = 1190 ohms
4) camshaft ps in good running car = 1200 ohms
If you still want to try or buy  or try and buy my cps PM me.



REDIS91 -

I PM'd you.  (thanks!)

Also, do you feel that my Camshaft position sensor is within reasonable range (as noted in my earlier thread above)?

Would you think that my CPS sensor is corrupt since it's reading way above the "norm"?
- Phil
1994 Cobra coupe #0013
2011 Genesis Coupe
2011 Tucson GLS

RED IS 91

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Quote from: Cobra Jet;48438
REDIS91 -

I PM'd you.  (thanks!)

Also, do you feel that my Camshaft position sensor is within reasonable range (as noted in my earlier thread above)?

Would you think that my CPS sensor is corrupt since it's reading way above the "norm"?
I will send you both my sensors crank and cam.Try the crank ps first and see if that solves your problem .I think it will .Also here is a pic of the relays .
good luck
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 05:58:20 PM by RED IS 91 »
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bmwpower

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Crank sensor is a magnetic sensor, is it not?  Is it fair to say the resistance will vary depending on whether or not the sensor is inline with a tooth on the gear?  Never tried it...just thinking out loud.

I would pull the sensor out of the bracket, enough to keep it away from something metal and test it again.

318i91

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Cobra Jet, have you solved the no-start problem?
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2008, 04:12:34 PM »
After searching the web for a week, I admit that this is indeed the ultimate no-start diagnosis thread for M42.

Cobra Jet, my 91 318i has the same problem as you had. I won't start last Monday morning and I have been doing all the diagnosis with no luck.

1. The starter cranks at normal speed.

2. There is spark when I turned on the ignition, yellow spark, though.

3. The fuel pump works when I jump-wired the #30 and #87 of the fuel pump relay socket. I could hear the sound of fuel being injected into the intake manifold.

4. The fuel pump replay functions well. I tested it with multimeter

5. The Crankshaft Position Sensor has a resistance of 525 ohms, in the correct range, and socket connection looks clean.

6. I even pull out the DME, took off the alumnium shell and check the circuit board carefully, there is no water damage, no corrosion, not even dust there. Everything looks shiny and good.

7. After the last failed start, I put my nose close to the tail pipe and could smell gas easily.

6-month ago the car failed to start for the 1st time in the 7 yrs I have it. My mechanic replaced the fuel pump and it have been running well since then until last Monday.

ak96ss, RED IS 91, Cobra Jet and all the experts on this board, could you help? Thanks

318i91

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Cobra Jet, have you solved the no-start problem?
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2008, 04:17:09 PM »
I forgot to mention that:

8. The check-engine light and all other lights are on, so I assume there is not fusible link issue.
9. The DME return code of 1444, which means no fault.

RED IS 91

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have you pulled your plugs to see if they are wet with gas ?
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318i91

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Good point. It is raining outside. Will pull the plugs to check if the rain stops tomorrow after work. I will let you know. Thanks.

RED IS 91

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Quote from: 318i91;49108
Good point. It is raining outside. Will pull the plugs to check if the rain stops tomorrow after work. I will let you know. Thanks.

Make sure you crank it over some before you pull the plugs.
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318i91

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Quote from: RED IS 91;49110
Make sure you crank it over some before you pull the plugs.


The rain finally stopped. But there wasn't much daylight left after I got home.
The original plan was to pull the plugs, check their condition; then put them back and crank it over and then check again. But it was just getting dark outside as I was pulling the plugs, so I decided to leave the 2nd part (crank and check) for tomorrow.

The plugs (Bosch Platinum +4, 3yr old) came out moist and with gas smell. There was also strong gas smell coming out of the plug holes. The electrodes  look like in normal condition with some carbon deposits(a few carbon particles like the size of small ant). There is some liquid residue on the threads looking like water condensation? With a LED light torch I could see the piston tops, they seem moist (not wet) and covered with a thin and smooth coat of carbon deposit.

Now I remember that I actually rolled the car back and forth for a few feets on the driveway on 5/4, the day before the start failure (to find a solid jacking ground to check the brake pads); so the engine ran for about 10 secs each time.

If the engine was flooded, how long does it take for the cylinder to dry up by itself? I just left the plug holes open and hope all liquids will evaporate overnight. Will crank it over and check again tomorrow.

Thanks.

RED IS 91

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I found this  article very helpful .
Scroll down until you get to the no start check section.
http://www.bavauto.com/newsletter/2007_n407_newsletter.pdf
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Cobra Jet

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UPDATE:

After a very kind M42 Member REDIS91 sent me a used CPS to try out, I can HAPPILY say the car STARTED!  :D

When I received the borrowed CPS sensor, before installing it, I spec'd it out using my multimeter and it read a solid 524 ohms and I did this merely for comparison sakes against my original CPS.

As I previously stated above, when I tested my CPS IN the vehicle, I was getting a reading of 1180+ohms (the multimeter kept ticking off digits slowly).  When I completely removed the original CPS sensor from my vehicle and re-tested it, it abruptly read 700ohms, then excelled to 1400+ ohms and kept going upward from there.  I also visibly looked over the outer casing and found a very small crack at the "head" (or probe) end of the CPS.  This very tiny crack was right at the junction where the wires go into the CPS head.  After installing the used/borrowed CPS from REDIS91, the car started w/o issues.

I am still minutely puzzled as to why the DME never picked up a fault code for a faulty or non-functioning CPS sensor.  When I had my prior 95 M3, the CPS died on it too, however, the E36 DME did register the correct fault code for the failed sensor.  The only thing I can think of is the E36 DME is far more advanced and sensitive to picking up such issues than the E30 DME.  The other thing I was also thinking was since the CPS was dead and was not able to register a spark, maybe that is why my 318ic's DME was not picking up the fault code, since it was not registering back a spark to the DME...??

I am greatly thankful for the "loaner" CPS, as this definitely helped to 100% confirm without a doubt that the CPS was the problem.  Even though I did all of the testing as outlined in this thread and I had also used the BAVAuto newsletter as supplied above by REDIS91, I was still not 100% positive the non-start was the CPS sensor due to not seeing the fault code for it from the DME.  Many of you were correct about the possibility of the CPS being bad and I want to thank EVERYONE who helped out in this thread!!!

I have a brand new CPS on order and coming from bimmerparts - thanks to Chris @ bimmerparts.

~~~~~

BONUS:

I have never seen it done by anyone and since my original CPS was "dead", I figured I would dissect it.  Here are my observations below (I will update this thread and pictures of the dissected CPS will be posted at a later date):

1) entire CPS sensor is vacuum molded in a black casing which protects the internal wiring.  All of the internal wires go from the plug to the head.

2) outer black casing between plug & head is cut away to reveal a clear cellophane layer

3) below the clear cellophane layer, there is a very fine multi-stranded mesh wire that conforms and surrounds the next layer of material.  This multi-stranded layer of fine wire is exactly like that found in a coaxial cable.

4) below the very fine multi-stranded mesh wire, there is a foil layer

5) below the foil layer, there are (2) wires - 1 black and 1 yellow.  Intertwined in & out of those wires are (2) smaller, very thin black wires, but these wires do not have any copper centers.  Looking online to determine what type of wires these could *possibly be*, I found that these might be Carbon Suppression Conductors.  A carbon suppression conductor consists of a substrate of fiberglass and/or Kevlar over which high-resistance conductive latex or silicone is coated, and functions by reducing spark current (by resistance) to provide suppression.  This is the same type of wire or material found in spark plug wires and other types of sensors.  If those 2 smaller wires are not carbon suppression conductors I don't know what else they could be, or what purpose they serve.

6) at the plug end, the plug is molded & encased in black plastic.  Inside of the plug there are (3) metal tabs.  These tabs are the same tabs as seen at the open end of the plug of which you would probe for resistance.  Tab 1 had a black wire soldered to it, Tab 2 had a yellow wire soldered to it and Tab 3 had the fine multi-stranded wire soldered to it.

7) The head or probe end of the CPS is encased by a thin metal layer that resembles a "can".  This part of the CPS when operational "reads" the teeth on the crank as the crank is spinning and relays the info back to the proper relays & DME for spark & fuel.  The metal can is thin and can be easily dented if hit or dropped.  The head of the CPS is also magnetic, as I was able to pick up lightweight tools and other smaller metal objects with it.  Once the metal can is cut away, it reveals the core of the sensor.  The center of the core contains the magnet.  The first outer layer of the core is an off white fabric.  Under this fabric there is very thin brass wiring that is multi layered and wrapped numerous times around the core.  The base of the core (where the wires are inserted to it) is black and is sealed w/ 2 rubber o-rings.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Neat huh?

Now, based on my observations and findings with the CPS dissection, IMO, there are (2) possible internal failure points:

1) The second layer under the outer casing is the fine multi-stranded coaxial wire.  This wire if breached or if any single strands are broken can render the CPS inoperable OR you may get incorrect resistance readings above or below the correct specs for this sensor.  Based on the fact that most 318's that are still on the road, some still retain the original CPS sensor.  This sensor and it's materials due being 18-20yrs old and most having 80-100k+ on them are susceptible to underhood temp cycles and weather conditions which can and do make the outer casing very hard & brittle.  IF this casing is damaged during an R&R process of any components around, near it or by dealing with the sensor directly or IF the casing is bent in a way it was not intended, there is the possibility of breaking or damaging the internal fine multi-stranded coaxial wiring.  Any such break in this wire will damage the sensor.  Remember, if ORIGINAL, they are OLD and can be easily damaged, so be careful when R&Ring.

2) IF the (2) small black wires found in the main wire casing are carbon suppression conductors, these can fail.  These type of wires are cheap to make, they are found in multiple brands of spark plug wires and other types of sensors.  These wires do their job extremely well while the conductor lasts.  The conductor can fail (just as spark plug wires do) and this too will render the sensor either inoperable or show varying resistance when tested.  Spark plug wires are limited life service parts depending on age, mileage accumulation and underhood temperature cycling conditions.

Based on my findings with the resistance/ohms readings of my original CPS and the dissection, it's safe to say that a CPS sensor is a limited lifetime part that CAN FAIL without warning and should be replaced based on age/wear/resistance readings.

Hopefully this thread is and will be helpful to others that are experiencing non-start issues, as there are MANY test methods covered, outlined and performed in this thread which will be beneficial to the "do it yourself" mechanic.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 11:09:18 AM by Cobra Jet »
- Phil
1994 Cobra coupe #0013
2011 Genesis Coupe
2011 Tucson GLS

318i91

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Still puzzled
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2008, 08:47:30 PM »
Quote from: RED IS 91;49291
I found this  article very helpful .
Scroll down until you get to the no start check section.
http://www.bavauto.com/newsletter/2007_n407_newsletter.pdf


I am glad that Cobra Jet fixed his car.

This is the testing I did today:
1. All plugs were wet with gas after crank-over
2. All plugs have sparks
3. The engine did not start.

Based on what I read from all sorts of online posts, If there is spark and the fuel pump runs, the CPS should be working, right?

If there is fuel, spark and cranking, why didn't it start?!

The only things I could imagine are a broken timing chain(causing no-compression) or faulty ECU. But:
1. I have never heard any rattle noise indicating a failing or broken chain before and after the engine failed to start.
2. If the ECU is intact, shiny without loose joints and burnt components, can it be faulty while returning "1444" code and operating the relays and fire the sparks? Is there a simple way to test if the ECU is faulty?

I am totally puzzled. Really want to save this E30 but somewhat frustrated.

Thanks

Cobra Jet

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The DME is apparently working, because if you get or see the check engine light come on when turning the car on - OR you are able to extract any codes from it, it's working.

Have you tested the resistance values for the CPS sensor and the cam sensor?  If you have not tested for these values, I would definitely get a multimeter and ohm test each of those sensors to see if they are within spec.

In the event I may have missed how you determined spark - did you do the method I did by pulling 1 spark plug wire off, inserting a plug into it, grounding it to the engine or chassis and having someone crank over the engine?

Try and test out that FPR - let's see what reading you get from it too.

Hmmm.....   have you tested your ICV valve???  I'm asking this because I also had another prior non-start that had occured a few weeks before this last non-start issue due to the ICV valve not functioning...  Quick test for ya - turn the key to the ON position, then put your hand on the ICV valve...  The valve if working SHOULD be humming or "buzzing" - you can feel it and if close enough you can also hear it.  If you do not hear ANY hum or don't feel any buzz - it's not operating.  If not operating, you'll never get the car started either...  Take the ICV off, clean it out, tap it a few times on the outer casing, reinstall and see if you get it to come back to life...  About 90% of the time after a good cleaning and tapping, they come back.  The internals get jammed up w/ carbon which prevents the spring/plunger mechanism from operating 100% and will either not allow any air into the intake or too much air...  TRY IT (if you have not already)...
« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 09:01:10 AM by Cobra Jet »
- Phil
1994 Cobra coupe #0013
2011 Genesis Coupe
2011 Tucson GLS

B318M42W

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From the tests you have performed, seems like the Crank ps is fine (getting fuel). I agree with Cobra Jet on the ICV. maybe a little more info on how the car ran before the no-start issue!? running rough? idle's weird? lack of power?

Maybe you have a bad engine ground ( I beleive it's located near the A/C compressor bracket, really not sure though)

if you have a compression tester, might be a good idea to check for that.
factory values: 220psi

good luck!
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318i91

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The camshaft sensor is probably bad.
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2008, 08:17:14 PM »
Quote from: Cobra Jet;49371
The DME is apparently working, because if you get or see the check engine light come on when turning the car on - OR you are able to extract any codes from it, it's working.

Have you tested the resistance values for the CPS sensor and the cam sensor?  If you have not tested for these values, I would definitely get a multimeter and ohm test each of those sensors to see if they are within spec.

In the event I may have missed how you determined spark - did you do the method I did by pulling 1 spark plug wire off, inserting a plug into it, grounding it to the engine or chassis and having someone crank over the engine?

Try and test out that FPR - let's see what reading you get from it too.

Hmmm.....   have you tested your ICV valve???  I'm asking this because I also had another prior non-start that had occured a few weeks before this last non-start issue due to the ICV valve not functioning...  Quick test for ya - turn the key to the ON position, then put your hand on the ICV valve...  The valve if working SHOULD be humming or "buzzing" - you can feel it and if close enough you can also hear it.  If you do not hear ANY hum or don't feel any buzz - it's not operating.  If not operating, you'll never get the car started either...  Take the ICV off, clean it out, tap it a few times on the outer casing, reinstall and see if you get it to come back to life...  About 90% of the time after a good cleaning and tapping, they come back.  The internals get jammed up w/ carbon which prevents the spring/plunger mechanism from operating 100% and will either not allow any air into the intake or too much air...  TRY IT (if you have not already)...

Update today:
1. There is no ohm reading b/w terminal 1&2 of the camshaft sensor. I tried both a digital and a analog meter. So I bet it's faulty.
2. The crankshaft sensor reads 520 ohms in previous test.
3. The ICV did buzz but very faint as I can barely felt it with fingers on. I took out the ICV and checked inside. It looks clean without much deposit or soot. I am not sure how to test it, though.
4. After camshaft sensor and the ICV disconnected, I checked the DME code using the "pedal pump" method, and still getting 1444! Shouldn't the DME return some faulty code? I am saying b/c last time when the MAF connector was loose about a year ago, the DME did return the correct doe.
5. I did use your method to check the sparks. after that I even pulled out every one of the plugs from head cover to check. They all fires normally.
6, The FPR is not easily accessable so I have not tested it. But for sure the pump was working and I was getting gas in the cylinders.

Would a bad camshaft sensor cause no-start situation? I am not sure what the sensor does and if it must be replaced.

One more thing, when I pulled a rubber hose (don't know what it's called but it's close to the front, or the radiator side of the engine, one end is connected to the head cover, the other end to another hose with "T" connector, under the intake manifold), some clear water (not a lot) came out of it. The inside of the hose was covered with some yellowish foam like stuff. Should there be water in the hose?

B318M42W, I used the car for daily commute (less that 5 miles each way) and it was running normal. The idle sometimes went rough slightly at stops for a few seconds, but not often. While testing the sparks, I grounded the plugs to the cylinder head cover and spark fired normally, so I guess the engine ground is good.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 08:22:24 PM by 318i91 »