Considering an S2K engine swap

[RouteZeroDesign]

The ability to rev to 9000rpm sounds pretty F-in special to me!!
I've driven an S2000 several times. Two of the times i drove the were just test drives at the honda dealer. The other time was driving a J's Racing tuned S2000 belonged to the Tuning Factory....and that thing was incredible!!

What other engine comes from the factory with a rev limit at 9k rpm?
that makes 120bhp per liter in stock form?
and that is as reliable as your moms accord?
there is a reason it won spots in the world's top ten best engines...4 years in a row!

My point is, if i were to spend allot of money on my m44 i suppose i could get it up to 240bhp...with allot of effort.
Whereas with the F20c i have that power from stock, which i can build upon to bring it to even higher levels, way out of the reach of a road going m4x engine.
With the F20c im starting with a platform that is much easier to gain extra power, yet also retain some drivability.

Maybe we have different views of whats 'Special', im not going to speculate on your view so i can only give mine.
For me, a special engine is one that i can use to drive to the shops, drive into town and not have to worry about it.....and then when im feeling up to it, it can transform into howling 9000rpm screamer!

Id much prefer if it was a bmw engine that im swapping in, but there just isnt one available that gives the same sort of power along with reliabilty.

Thanks for the comment tjts1, its good to be able to express my opinions and get the words down on paper. And thank you for being nice about it.

Im almost glad that this conversion is somewhat controversial, conflict leads to progression and development.
As a designer there is nothing worse for us the mediocrity.
If i design something and you hate it, Fine, Tell me why?
Similarly, If i design something and you love it, equally fine, tell me why?
Its that middle ground beige existence of 'not bad', 'so so' and 'okay' that we fear the most.
And i can guarantee that if i had posted that i was swapping in a BMW i6, there wouldn't have been half as many views or posts in this thread.

Again, thank you all for sharing your views and opinions, it only pushes me more to achieve more

Paul

[sheepdog]

The ford engine is decent, but im not really a huge fan. Parts for fords arent as common as you would think over here...we didnt even get the ranger lol

Japanese parts, on the other hand, are incredibly easy to get here....
Ireland is the largest importer per capita of japanese cars in the world!

if its going to get me 240bhp and reliability then why not?

I know you do not get Rangers, but the part is not that difficult to source.

I am not saying the S2k is a bad choice, it is a great motor. It is just an expensive one considering the alternatives. You are lucky though if you can find an S2k for that much, here they get $3-$4k for a bare motor making for an expensive swap.

Seems like a lot of money but I don't think any other conversion is going to be any cheaper. Personally I would love to see an S2k powered E30.

cheers

It has been done once already.

Not sure about in the U.K. but here, there is far cheaper swaps than that.

[RouteZeroDesign]

Sorry Ranger, i didnt mean for it to come across as if i was dismissing that,
yeah im sure it would be possible to get the ranger gearbox but the japanese stuff is much more common. F
ords have sorta died down over here to an extent, people generally view them as a bland brand.
That was until ford started releasing decent cars to the european market, such as the new mondeo and the Ford GT. We can get the mustang, but its generally difficult to get them in as they're special order.

I never realized it would be $3-$4k for just the bare engine, i guess thats because there is a demand for that type of engine in the states whereas over here the market would be fairly small for engine swaps.
For example the D16 engine for my old civic, including the ecu, alternator, intake, airbox, starter etc...cost me €300 - about $400

For the S2000 stuff (F20C engine, gearbox, driveshaft, ecu, clocks and wiring)
Its going to cost me roughly €3000, which i think is a fairly good deal, when you compare it to the price of building a heavily modefied m42.

I just found the thread on honda tech of the guy with the f20c e30, looks very interesting.

Btw: im not in the Uk....im in ireland

[Boyracer]

Everyone seems to have opinion about S2000 torque and hp per liter :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8dl4faCpJE

[RouteZeroDesign]

Lol, thats one of the funniest videos ive seen in a long time

The reason the s2000 engine is considered to lack torque is because it is an over-square.

An over-square engine is one that has a bore larger than it's stroke, typically producing an engine with lots of hp with high revs but not as much torque as an under-square of the same displacement.

An under-square engine is one with a stroke larger than it's bore, typically producing an engine with lots of torque with low revs but not as much horsepower as an over-square of the same displacement.

There are different levels of this, and the more you go one way or another, the more the effect takes place
Eg: An F1 engine is very much over-square, where it has a huge bore but a miniscule stroke. Leading to an engine that has high horsepower at extremely high revs, but not as much torque as an engine of the same displacement, that was less over-square or even under-square.

A square engine is an engine which the bore and the stroke match each other.
The K20a is a good example of this as it has 86 bore x 86 stroke.
This produces an engine that has an equal balance of revs, hp and torque.

I dont know the exact reasons behind all of this (im still learning but it has something to do with piston velocity and the mechanical advantage of the piston forcing down on the crank journal.
Longer stroke = larger distance between crank center and journal center = longer lever = increased mechanical advantage of the piston forcing the crank down and around.

Yes, from the factory the F20c doesnt have a huge amount of torque, but there are millions of threads on s2ki or honda tech, describing ways in which to gain more torque.
Torque is cheap if you will

Ps:if you dont get the reference at the end just ask

[Boyracer]

If your engine is limited by displacement, it is better to have large bore compared to stroke if you are after power. That's why I am bit apprehensive about stroking engines.

While long stroke engine might have more torque, in the end it cannot produce same kind of power as short stroke/large bore engine. It boils down to valve area which basically determines how much air engine can get. You generally can fit larger valves to large bore cylinder head then to small bore. Also, long stroke engine cannot rev as high because of larger piston speeds and hence accelerations.

In the end, if displacement is limited and you are looking for largest amount of power, I think you are better off with oversquare engine that you can rev the shite out off to generate power and then use optimal gearbox and differential ratios to put that power to road

[RouteZeroDesign]

Yeah, your right mate, great explanation.

Just clarifying, i have no intention of changing the bore or stroke of the f20c.
The characteristics of it are perfect for me.
I will be modifying it slightly but only over the course of a year or so.

I will be fitting a dry sump system while i fit the conversion.
This will allow me to fit the engine lower and clear the hood, along with increasing horsepower slightly.
I will also be fitting a new manifold, to help clear the steering linkage.
In the future i will be fitting lower tension rings onto the pistons and increase the vacuum in the crank case, this should give me a slight gain in horse power i hope.

After that i will be fitting Aem ems Ecu along with jenvey throttle bodies.
Along with some lightweight pulleys.

After that point it gets into the internals of the engine, infact il probably wait until this stage to fit the piston rings.
I will be fitting spoon cams, valves and valve springs.
And then i will blueprint the engine, to insure close tolerances.

This should hopefully lead to a very stout, but reliable engine

[tjts1]

This thread needs more pictars

I think it sits so high because they were afraid to cut into the oil pan.

[RouteZeroDesign]

Thanks for the photo, i havent been on import tuner in a while lol

Luckily ive done the occasional dry sump so that shouldnt be a problem.
The thing im worried about is the mount and the exhaust manifold..
The car above is a LHD so no problems on that one

[batsbats]

Any documentation or write up of the experience of the e30 f20 swap?

[e30 4cyl]

Sounds like you are now sure about the s2k engine, that will definately be a great choice.  When do you plan on starting the conversion?  I look forward to seeing your build and results!

[RouteZeroDesign]

batsbats-
I have seen one e30 swap with an F20c, but that car was an rallycross car so the modifications were extreme.
Its definitely possible to do, and it might be easier in the e30 than e36 due to less wiring to be transfered over.

E30_4cyl-
Yeah i think im pretty certain on it now, i would re-list my reasons why but i think they have all been covered already.

I plan to take the car off the road at the start of the summer and work on it until mid august, when i will be taking the car (hopefully)  to the nurburgring.
Im finished in college at the end of may, so i might take the car off the road then.
Il be able to work on it a good bit as i work nights, so the day willbe spent on the car.

The only things that will interupt it is holidays which will mess up the schedule.
Im going to San Francisco at the end of June, but i might use this time to pick up the Aem EMS or the the hondata ecu.

[batsbats]

batsbats-
I have seen one e30 swap with an F20c, but that car was an rallycross car so the modifications were extreme.
Its definitely possible to do, and it might be easier in the e30 than e36 due to less wiring to be transfered over.

E30_4cyl-
Yeah i think im pretty certain on it now, i would re-list my reasons why but i think they have all been covered already.

I plan to take the car off the road at the start of the summer and work on it until mid august, when i will be taking the car (hopefully)  to the nurburgring.
Im finished in college at the end of may, so i might take the car off the road then.
Il be able to work on it a good bit as i work nights, so the day willbe spent on the car.

The only things that will interupt it is holidays which will mess up the schedule.
Im going to San Francisco at the end of June, but i might use this time to pick up the Aem EMS or the the hondata ecu.

I'm interested how yours turns out.  Any ballpark figure how much the ecu, engine, transmission will cost?  Also I couldn't find the weight of the motor anywhere.  Have any idea?

[RouteZeroDesign]

The price i've been quoted was €3000/$4600.
That includes
the F20C engine, 6-speed gearbox, driveshaft (even though i wont be using this), Ecu, clocks and engine wiring harness.

Three things that i could make money back on is from the clocks, driveshaft and ecu.

The clocks because im already making my own digital dash with built in data logger.
This is very basic at the moment, but the way im building it leaves room for expansion.
Such as accelerometer, reversing cameras, lap counter, gear indicator.
This is a work in progress, so hopefully it'll be ready on time.

The driveshaft because i might be able to trade the s2k drive shaft for a shorter one that will work with the e36.
The e36 uses a two piece driveshaft and a fixed point central linkage.
Il be using the rear half of the m3 driveshaft along with the m3 diff and propshafts,
but for the center section i will have to search around some more.

The ecu, i may try to trade this with the scrap yard for the ecu from the DC5 integra, that way i can send it to hondata to have it reflashed and the data logging facility activated.
The reason i need to get the hondata ecu, as opposed to the stock ecu, is because the stock ecu needs the immobilizer to function, but the hondata reflash allows you to dissable this, along with a whole host of other stuff

I possibly might delay the swap to later on in the year, it really depends on money tbo.
This no check book car, and the moment the shocks are shot so come coilovers are top of the list

[///digitalme]

did you ever swap it?