Author Topic: Considering an S2K engine swap (Read 34333 times)

nuvolarossa · « **Reply #15 on:** April 18, 2008, 08:46:30 AM »

at this point why not the v8 from e92 M3? BMW says that is lighter than S54 and S52 (202 kg or 445 lb)

only joking here!

just curious of what you'll do!

Boyracer · « **Reply #16 on:** April 18, 2008, 09:17:49 AM »

F20C on E36 sounds interesting and good idea, light engine with lots of power is always a good plan, no matter of origin

But if you want to be really different... Destroke M60B30 V8! :p

Yep, take the smallest BMW V8 and just manufacture new crankshaft and con rods. Keep bore at 84 mm but get stroke down from 67.6 mm to 45 mm and then you have 1995 cm3 displacement.

Better yet, get cylinder heads from M60B40 engine and then you have 35 mm intake valves and 25% more total valve area even compared to 3.2 liter M3 engine. And your engine has only 62% of displacement breathing through all that valve area...

That engine would have feck all torque but maaaaan it would scream at high revs! And by high I mean 12 000+ rpm

Hmmm. So you would need pneumatic valve train and quite robust pistons too, might get expensive... And oil pump and timing chain might need attention too.

But the power potential would be awesome

tjts1 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 18, 2008, 10:06:56 AM »

Quote from: RouteZeroDesign;47420

tjts1
The H22 is a fantastic motor, with allot of torque for a honda. But unfortunately the engine mounts are on the wrong side as its a transverse engine.
I like the way your thinking though, the more the merrier.

Yeah and it also rotates the wrong direction. it'll be hard to find a RWD transmission for it.

This is very different from the direction you are planning to go but still interesting.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=204185

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #18 on:** April 18, 2008, 11:53:17 AM »

Update: I tried to ring traynors about the engine but couldnt get through. I have sent them an email, so im now waiting to hear back from them.

Nuvolarossa
A v8 would be nice but only if i could find a really lightweight one, and one that revved sky high. Ive seen the v8 made out of two superbike engines, but it is very very expensive.

Ive considered the SR20DET/DE, but they are both extremely heavy.
450lb for a 4 cylinder is crazy....an ls1 v8 is lighter!!

Boyracer
It sounds like your building an F1 engine lol.
Yeah i would be nice to do, lightweight, small cc v8, itbs, siamesed exhaust...make it sound like a ferrari...no wait...bmw f1 car

Maybe in a 2002...il save that idea for a future project!

tjts1
It would be do-able, in theory...but very expensive to do in practice.
Thanks for the link...i <3 engine conversions!

Im currently reading articles on a 10,000 rpm s2000....SICK!!

batsbats · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2008, 01:03:01 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICsrADnWFKU

The controversial F20 in the E36 (318iS) chassis. The folks at bf.c blasted the video. Personally, I think it's a great swap if you can pull it off.

I think the people who hated on the idea, failed to understand it was a 4cyl for 4cyl, and I don't think they have access to many BMW I6 motors over there. I never saw a single e30, e36, but maybe one or two e46's, when I went there last spring break for two weeks. Point being, it's probably rare and expensive to get their hands on it, while the F20 is quite popular there.

I just love the idea of 9k revs. They kept the stock dash, quite funny when he's pushing the car!

tjts1 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2008, 01:17:19 PM »

Theres also rotary pawahhH!!1
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2007/06/rotary-powered-bmw-e30-320i-fitted-with.html

LS1 pawahhh (not as heavy as it looks)
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=699289

SR20DET pawah
http://www.bimmersport.co.nz/forums/index.php?showtopic=11720&st=0&p=129704&#entry129704

Lots of good option out there. Its just a matter of time and money.

e30 4cyl · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2008, 02:55:15 PM »

What do you think of the wankel? They are small, lightweight, rev even quicker and higher than the s2k motor. Since you have to stay under 2 liters, you could go up to three rotors, not sure how much work it would be to fab this up though. That should be around 350 hp with stock reliabilty. You would also then have the option of turbocharging, I bet it would be easy to get over 500hp. The only problem is you would have high fuel prices and eat oil. But they do sound great!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9675TKafw3g

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2008, 05:22:49 PM »

batsbats
It may be controversial alright, and some may consider it blasphemous to put a japanese engine into a bmw, but if it were BMW making a 4 cyl engine with 240bhp...You can guarantee it would work the other way around.

Im not a slave to any brand, i do whats best for me and my enjoyment of the car.....as i think everyone else should do. Dont fit an inline 6 because some stranger on a forum slagged your 4banger, fit the engine that suits your needs, and your desires.

I used to be a member of bimmer forums, but the amount of abusive, arrogant and racist users on there, really puts a downer on the whole place.
Ive met some very nice members of there ( darkside m3 anyone?), but for every 1 nice person there are 100 A-holes.

9k+ Rpm REEEAALLLYY appeals to me, and it is something that would take allot of money and compromise to achieve with the m42.

tjts1
thanks for the suggestions

Il try share my views on each

The rotary/wankel...see bottom of this post

Ls1 v8- Nice engine, lots of torque but heavier than id like (though not that heavy)
also it doesn't rev to the astronomical levels that i desire...at least not without spending allot of money.

Sr20det- Fantastic engine with lots of turbo power, but at 450lbs it is extremely heavy.
Ever noticed that s13, s14 and s15s drift so easily? its because their weight balance puts allot of weight over the front wheels. Which leaves the rear end to act loose, but not carry too much inertia, so that slides are easy to catch.

E30_4cyl and tjts1
I would consider the rotary engine, its very light and can rev very high.
The only thing that wold put me off it is maintenance. The apex seals have a tendency to wear quickly if not looked after, and the engine requires a rebuild every few years. Not too bad in japan with loads of RE specialists, but in Europe (ireland especially) any company who does RE rebuilds are going to charge you through the nose for it.

sheepdog · « **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2008, 05:52:40 PM »

Ford Duratech.

Before you dive into the S2000 or any other, take a look at the Duratec motor in a Focus. You can easily get lots more power and parts should be easy and cheap for it over there. The only part you may have trouble finding is the bell housing needed to mate it to a transmission (Ranger pickup). The Duratec is the same weight as an M42 and FAR cheaper than an S2000 engine. It even has a similar rev range to an m42 so the tach could probably be re-used or modded to work.

Right now, that is the only engine I would use in place of an M42.

Almost everything else is spendy or heavy.

rloewy · « **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2008, 06:38:41 PM »

What is the difference between the Duratec and the Zetec? I know that the Duratec is based on the Mazda design and replaced the Zetec - but is there somewhere I can see the specific design differences?

sheepdog · « **Reply #25 on:** April 19, 2008, 10:53:04 PM »

This place has some good basic info about each and the parts needed.
http://quad4rods.com/
Weber side draft Duratec anyone?

http://quad4rod.accountsupport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=6&Itemid=29
Specs

sumyungguy · « **Reply #26 on:** April 20, 2008, 01:21:06 AM »

Ive been talking about an F20C swap with friends since I bought my car a year ago. The easiest thing to do is to get an s2000 front clip or find one you can take everything off of, use the interior dash harness + cluster, and use an AEM ECU. The engine mounts and trans position are the only difficult parts, which really aren't all that difficult to a fabricator.

The way I look at it, a motor is a motor, if it makes reliable horsepower and has a 6speed attached... Why not use it? The technology has come a far way since the 'ol m42's and s14's were designed, it seems only logical to move in that direction.

sheepdog · « **Reply #27 on:** April 20, 2008, 11:38:55 AM »

Quote from: sumyungguy;47567

The technology has come a far way since the 'ol m42's and s14's were designed, it seems only logical to move in that direction.

I disagree.
Yes, the S2000 motor and the Ford Duratec are great engines, but are they really that signifcantly better.
The S2k does not get that great of mileage, the Duratech does not even make the Hp per liter of an M42. I would bet with some work the M42 could make the same power per liter as a Honda motor. Febi's car comes pretty close and will still outpace it mileage-wise in an aerodynamic brick.

Most of what is done today was done well before the M42.

I would argue car technology has not changed much at all in the last 50 years. The only significant advancements being emissions and computers to help in design. Almost everything else was being done clear back into the 50's or was just slightly improving what was already there. We still get the same mileage, or less, in cars today as we did back into the 60's. You want to show me jumps show me an engine that makes significantly more power than we made in the 50's and gets 50mpg. The only real jump has been in emissions.

I have seen a 5000 pound 50's sedan delivery making 250hp from a 1978 Ford 400 V8 make 26mpg. You see any cars that big and heavy today making that sort of power and mileage? That engine was not even rebuilt and was running a carb.

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #28 on:** April 20, 2008, 12:01:24 PM »

The ford engine is decent, but im not really a huge fan. Parts for fords arent as common as you would think over here...we didnt even get the ranger lol

Japanese parts, on the other hand, are incredibly easy to get here....
Ireland is the largest importer per capita of japanese cars in the world!

Cream of sumyungguy!
When i buy it, i will buy the F20C engine complete with gearbox, driveshaft, ecu, clocks and wiring. If traynors want me to take it as a front clip then fine, but if it works out cheaper to get just the parts then il go for that.

Will it be possible to use the factory ecu? i dont mind replacing it with the Aem EMS but id prefer to wait and do that at a latter stage when im fitting the ITBs.

I have found two people that have transfered them into Ae86s. One is Ian G, off the driftworks forum which i use allot. The other is Eric OSullivan who takes part in the Prodrift championship here in Ireland...Hopefully il be able to gain some information through them.

The mounts shouldnt be too difficult, as the engine mounts are in a similar position to the m42's but i will have to modify them to get the engine to sit low enough.
The gearbox mount are also fine, as they attach inside the tranny tunnel, im not sure where the e36's mount are but they cant be too far away.
The gear linkage is also very handy, as the shifter bracket can be moved forward or backwards (with some modification of course)

After that the only two major stumbling blocks will be the wiring, and the exhaust manifold, which may interfere with the steering linkage (being a RHD car and all that)

Your right creamy, an engine is an engine.
I couldnt care less if the engine said 'Gayboys weekly' on the valve cover....if its going to get me 240bhp and reliability then why not?

One thing that shows how good the f20c is, is that the s14 boys are looking at the f20c's head to see how it flows....a testament to honda engineering.

tjts1 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 20, 2008, 02:01:18 PM »

I have respect for anyone willing to take on an engine conversion. Its a huge job one way or another. I'm not going to bad mouth any of them. You want to put a brigs and straton in there? Go for it. Looking at ebay.co.uk there was a complete S2k drive train for 2500 pounds. Seems like a lot of money but I don't think any other conversion is going to be any cheaper. Personally I would love to see an S2k powered E30. It might not be my first choice, but I wouldn't refuse a turn at the wheel. If you haven't driven an S2000 yet, please do. The 240hp peak sounds impressive but below 6000rpm its like driving any pedestrian Accord. There's just nothing there to make the engine feel special.

cheers