Author Topic: Considering an S2K engine swap (Read 34326 times)

RouteZeroDesign · « **on:** April 17, 2008, 02:30:45 PM »

I know I'm probably going to get abuse for this, posting it on an m42 forum and all that, but I'm considering swapping in an F20c from the honda s2000.

But before you guys hang me for even considering it, here are my reasons.

The F20c in standard form produces 240bhp, the m42 produces 140bhp.
Yes, it is possible to take the m42 up to 240 bhp but this undoubtedly expensive.
Looking at this from a purely financial perspective,the F20c would cost me �2000 plus �1000 for wiring, new mounts and various other things, whereas to build an m42 to similar sort of power, is more than likely going to cost much more than this.

Forgetting about money for a second.
If we had two e36s beside each other, both with 240bhp, one with an m42 and the other with an f20c, the one with the f20c is going to have a much smoother idle than the m42. The reason for this is the vtec system, which would allow me to have a smooth idle and decent torque low down while using the small cam journal, but a screamer of an engine while on the high cam.

Ive seen the video on youtube where the engine is too high for the engine bay, and subsequently the bonnet is open at the back, which for me is a HUGE problem.
I've contacted the owner of the car through my friend yuki in japan, and i have found out the reason for this and a possible solution.
Time constraints and being the first to do it, were huge factors.

Maybe im getting soft, wanting a reliable engine and a smooth idle, maybe its my undying desire for revs or maybe it was the s2k test drive i went on last night:D:D

Anyway, id like to hear your opinions on the matter.

PS: im still only CONSIDERING this, nothing is set in stone, but id like to explore all options for the engine before signing the dotted line.

hoevesruperd · « **Reply #1 on:** April 17, 2008, 02:56:36 PM »

what are you planning to do with this car?
i would chose the S14 it would be cheaper around that kind of power with few mods, and it'd keep the bmw pedigree.. and even there... if i was to swap an S-engine i would go with an S52
there is way more available help and info thats for sure
depends what you want

rloewy · « **Reply #2 on:** April 17, 2008, 04:07:49 PM »

I am not really sure how it compares to an M42 - but the F20c is a very tall engine - you need to consider what it takes to install one.

My experience is from Super-7s - and comparing this engine to an engine like a Zetec - can't be done in a standard Lotus 7 like chassis - you need to build something that is taller, for sure. In theory, should be possible in an E30 engine bay - but you might have to pay attention to where the mounts will go and your ride height - if you plan on keeping the stock hood.

As I said, no real experience with it in this application - but definitely something you need to look into.

r0ckrat · « **Reply #3 on:** April 17, 2008, 04:08:25 PM »

Quote from: hoevesruperd;47331

i would chose the S14 it would be cheaper around that kind of power with few mods, and it'd keep the bmw pedigree..

While I too would chose the S14 motor, it would NOT be cheaper... S14 long blocks sell for $4k+, and you'd still need the harness, and all other ancillaries. It also would still not idle as smoothly, but there are 800hp S14's out there (turbo'd to h#ll...)

[sniff] I miss my E30 M3... [/sniff]

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #4 on:** April 17, 2008, 04:45:32 PM »

The car is my daily driver, hence the need/desire for reliability and reasonable idle.

Swapping in an s14 has a few problems,
My car is an e36, so the s14's sump would hit my cross member. This could be solved with a custom sump or even a dry one.
The s14 is 2.3/2.5 liter, for track event categorization and insurance purposes id prefer to keep the car under 2 liters.
Im sure there is some regulations regarding converting OBD II cars to OBD I but i will have to find out.
It comes with the same sort of problems that the F20C does, but s14 are starting to get rare and expensive.
Good suggestion though, il keep it in mind.

S52 has lots of power, but also lots of weight. Im going to keep it inline 4, to cut down on weight and to improve handling.
With some tuning the F20c can reach 270+ bhp.....thats m3 territory, with allot less mass!

So the shortlist so far is
F20C
S42 ish
S14

Keep em coming guys

To spur conversation have a look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCo00asduEQ

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #5 on:** April 17, 2008, 05:13:02 PM »

rloewy
Your 100% correct, the F20c is a very tall engine, but not too much taller than the m42.
The reason the car in the video has the engine coming out of the bonnet is because it was easier to raise the bonnet than modifying the sump pan, and by the time they realized the engine was too tall, it was already in.

I think that fitting lowered mounts, would help lower the engine slightly.
And with some Work to the sump and possibly to the valve cover it should be able to fit.

Regarding the sump, it will either have to be modified and re-welded or else i will build a dry sump for it. I could buy the kit off Toda, but at over $9k its not worth it, when i can build my own for under a tenth of that.

DZick · « **Reply #6 on:** April 17, 2008, 06:20:05 PM »

Good luck finding an s42, and if you do, good luck finding parts to rebuild it every few months if it is a DD. An s14 is also not the best DD out there.

After saying that, go s50b32, they should be easy to find over there. 321hp, smooth 6cyl, Dual Vanos, and still BMW.

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #7 on:** April 17, 2008, 06:44:17 PM »

I didnt mean s42, thats why i said "s42 ish" as in, a highly modified m42....I probably should of clarified that.
I do have a source for s42 engines, but they are all extremely expensive due to their rarity. They can provide tuning information for the m42 though.

Your right though, a Full on S42 is light years away from a daily driver, and being a race engine it would require race interval rebuilds.

The m3 6 cylinder is a fantastic engine, but not for this project.
The e36 is quite heavy in comparison to the e30, my goal is to bring the weight down as far as possible

tjts1 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 17, 2008, 07:07:38 PM »

Personally I would start with an H22 because its easier to find and cheaper but I don't know what the market is like in Ireland. Obviously you would have to deal with adapter plate and what not.

EDIT: scratch that idea.

e30 4cyl · « **Reply #9 on:** April 17, 2008, 10:19:29 PM »

Nice to see you are going to stick with a 4 cylinder! How about Lancia Power?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=X-6SguDEwIg

I know it is a full race engine and would not be very streetable, but it would be absolutely astonishing on the street-the ultimate sleeper!!! Sorry this isn't really useful, but I love any 4 cylinder turbos. Maybe you could experiment with turbocharging the m42?
Something like this....?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9i_KSI8VvH0

700 hp:eek:

BrandC · « **Reply #10 on:** April 18, 2008, 02:40:42 AM »

The F20C engine is a wonderful engine, very similar to the spirit of our lightweight E30 M42's. If you really want to make it happen I'm sure you could, but if you are looking for support here it's going to be hard to find. Mostly because we don't know what to do lol.

kowalski · « **Reply #11 on:** April 18, 2008, 02:56:04 AM »

Quote from: BrandC;47402

The F20C engine is a wonderful engine, very similar to the spirit of our lightweight E30 M42's. If you really want to make it happen I'm sure you could, but if you are looking for support here it's going to be hard to find. Mostly because we don't know what to do lol.

shpeak for yourself. there is lots of people on here who know what their doing.

Boyracer · « **Reply #12 on:** April 18, 2008, 03:35:38 AM »

Quote from: DZick;47345

Good luck finding an s42, and if you do, good luck finding parts to rebuild it every few months if it is a DD. An s14 is also not the best DD out there.

Here you go, only 8500�

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=16398

tim_s · « **Reply #13 on:** April 18, 2008, 06:22:51 AM »

this should be interesting, please keep us posted on your progress!

RouteZeroDesign · « **Reply #14 on:** April 18, 2008, 07:48:03 AM »

tjts1
The H22 is a fantastic motor, with allot of torque for a honda. But unfortunately the engine mounts are on the wrong side as its a transverse engine.
I like the way your thinking though, the more the merrier.

E30_4cyl
The lancia engine would be nice, but again its transverse.
Id love one of the old integrales, in white and on compomotive wheels

Have you seen the video of the twin charged integrale on a karting track?

A turbocharged m42, or turbocharged anything for that matter would be nice. But it runs into the problem of insurance and racing categorization.
For both road insurance and track racing, turbo charged cars are bumped up by 50% of their cc. Eg: a 2 liter turbocharged car is designated as a 3 liter class.
Also, i kinda prefer the 'Honesty' of NA power.

BrandC
The f20c did feel very similar in some ways, to the m42/m44.
It was always very willing, and almost encouraged you to rev the arse out of it. Maybe more so that the m42/m44, but similar none the less.
If I'm going to swap a new engine in, this is definitely a characteristic i want to retain.
As far as people on here not knowing about this stuff....
Your right, the F20C install into BMW is very rare. But there is a huge amount of knowledgeable members on this forum (some of whom have already posted in this thread) who should be able to help out with certain things.
I understand what you mean though, there is very little experience with this particular engine, but I'm sure it'll be okay..

Kowalski
I think he was just referring to lack of info on this particular engine, and not a lack of knowledge from the members of the forum...but thanks for defending anyway

BoyRacer
Yes, that was one of the places i was thinking of.
S42s are Soooo expensive when compared to the F20C, but i guess so would any racing engine be, when compared to a road engine.

Tim_s
Will do mate. A big part of my consideration of the F20c is based on advice you have given me before. Cheers again for your help.

Im going to ring traynors today (traynors.co.uk) to find out how much they charge for an F20C engine. They were very good delivering the engine for my old civic. And at €300 including the ecu and everything it was very cheap.