Author Topic: Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train  (Read 9060 times)

Paul Strefling

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« on: February 25, 2008, 01:08:57 PM »
With 211k miles on the engine it has developed a rather harsh tick. The frequency seems to be at half the engine speed which leads me to believe that it is in the valve train. It worsens as the oil temperature rises and is not even noticeable when the engine is cold.

With a screw driver to my ear I can not seem to pinpoint the location of the noise, however, I am almost certain it is not from the timing system; I can clearly hear the chain through the cover, but the ticking is not present.

A little bit of history:

The car has always ran on the cold side because of a sticky thermostat until about a month ago when I replaced it.

Currently running with about 1000 miles on Mobil 1 15W-50.

I am looking for some advice on what to look for when I take the valve cover off. Or perhaps this is a common problem?

Thank you for you time.

nicknikolovski

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2008, 03:53:32 AM »
Hi Paul, This is a fairly common noise for BMW's, and euro cars in general. There are 2 noises that cause this noise:

1. Hydraulic Lifters - if it ticks when the engine is warm then they are proberbly worn, usually they mainly tick on a cold start due to time taken for the oil to reach them.
2. Fuel Injectors - my engine's injectors tick very loudly and all the time - not sure if this normal though.

Paul Strefling

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2008, 07:17:49 AM »
I know for certain that it is not injector noise, the tapping is quite loud; I have an obnoxious exhaust leak at the collector and this tapping noise can easily be heard over it.

I originally thought that the culprit was a hydraulic lifter, but I am somewhat confused as why I could not detect the noise through the valve cover. I also find it odd that the noise only occurs with high oil temperatures. Are there any tricks to detect which lifter it is, or to assure that the noise is indeed coming from the valve train?

1991 E30 M42

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2008, 07:58:37 PM »
I had ticking noise like that with a previous engine, it ended up being rod bearings

318is93

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2008, 11:53:48 PM »
Quote from: 1991 E30 M42;43680
I had ticking noise like that with a previous engine, it ended up being rod bearings


What did that run you to fix?

1991 E30 M42

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2008, 12:38:02 AM »
I bought a parts car for $500 and took the engine out of it, and that one broke I rebuilt the original engine which ended up costing alot more. http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3523

nicknikolovski

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2008, 02:50:50 AM »
Try running a thinner oil - 5W30 Mobil 1 Fully Sythetic, pretty sure 15W50 is semi-synthetic. The thin oil solved my lifter noise.

Hey just wondering can you only hear the ticking noise from inside the car or is it noticeable all the time inside or out?

Paul Strefling

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2008, 06:29:52 AM »
I can hear the noise inside and outside the car. It is quite faint while sitting in the car though.

Considering this noise is only present at higher oil temperatures wouldn't that suggests that the a thinner oil would only make the problem worse?

Cobra Jet

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2008, 08:01:42 AM »
This may sound funny to most, but if you really want to narrow in on where the noise is actually or could be coming from - you can use the "stethoscope" method.

Sure, there are automotive stethoscopes for listening to engine noises, but instead of spending the money on one, you can perform the same diagnosis using a simple broom stick handle (or long wooden dowel stick, etc).

To do it - remove the broom head from the broom handle.  Start the vehicle, then take the broom handle with the end where the broom actually used to be, pick a spot on the engine and place that end of the broom handle onto the part or engine.  After picking a "listening spot", now take the other end of the broom stick and place it near whatever ear you prefer.  Now you can actually listen to the internals of the engine.  Poke around in different spots to listen.  You will be surprised at what is magnified and can be heard through the broom handle (it's very effective for finding/locating internal engine issues).

Like I said, it seems very silly (and will look silly to any neighbors watching you) - BUT it DOES WORK and you can actually here the engine internals, whether you place it topside or bottom side.  If the ticking, tapping, knocking, etc is internal, by using the method above, you will be able to zero in on actually where the noise is originating from within the engine.  

I hope that helped.

:)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 08:53:01 AM by Cobra Jet »
- Phil
1994 Cobra coupe #0013
2011 Genesis Coupe
2011 Tucson GLS

Paul Strefling

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2008, 08:41:03 AM »
Cobra,

I actually already gave that a try with a large screwdriver, unfortunately I was unable to pinpoint the location of the noise; I am curious to know if anyone has been able to distinctly hear lifters through the valve cover with this method...

Cobra Jet

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2008, 09:17:51 AM »
Hi Paul!

I missed the screwdriver reference when I quickly read through your post!  :)

I know some are recommending a thinner oil - however, a thinner oil will not help the situation.

As you specifically noted in your original post, you state:
Quote
It worsens as the oil temperature rises and is not even noticeable when the engine is cold.


The reason being is that due to the oil being cold, the oil is actually thicker prior to warm up or normal operating temps.  Sometimes thicker oil can mask certain internal engine noises, reduce blow by, etc. Some shops will recommend or use a thicker oil in higher mileage engines due to internal wear on bearings, lifters, rockers, rotating assembly, etc.  As you note, as the oil warms up, the noise is more present - even when using a 15w50 oil.  Using a thinner oil will not help nor solve the issue you are experiencing.  In some areas of the country, especially those that experience Winter, using a thicker oil is not good because the thicker the oil is, especially when at or below freezing temps, the longer it takes for the oil to reach all of the parts that need to be lubricated appropriately.

Usually, in winter months some folks go with a thinner weight oil and in summer months most folks will go to a thicker weight oil.  This is for those w/ higher mileage engines - I'm not saying this is the thing to do for everyone, but it does work in instances where these engines, regardless of vehicle type, do benefit from the different oil viscosities during Seasonal changes.  Some use a thicker weight oil all year round, however, if or at below freezing temps, this is risky.

Have you ever heard or read up on "SeaFoam"?  I have personally never used the product, but have read about it on multiple car forums (every forum from BMW, Toyota, Honda, Volvo, Fords, GM, etc) and based on the responses and very lengthy threads, some folks swear by the product after using it.  It's a product that the engine "injests" internally and the product is supposed to thoroughly clean out the engine internals from any varnish, carbon, "gunk", buildup, etc...  Many have reported that after using the product, their engines have run much better, gas mileage has improved and even those that had some minor internal noises, the noises have been non-existant afterwards (such as stuck lifters & lifter ticking).  If you have not read up on the product, just do a search on any automotive forum you belong to (or google it) and there's plenty of info on it which may help you too.

I'm going to say that the ticking you are experiencing could be worn lifters.  Once the oil has been heated or reaches optimum operating temp, it is thinned out a little and the lifters will be ticking more so than when the oil was cold & thick.  Remember, lifters are pressurized by oil - the denser the oil, the more pressure being exerted into the lifter - when the oil thins out, there is less pressure and less pumping of oil out of the lifter, especially on worn lifters (or higher mileage lifters).

There is a distinct difference between a tick & a tap.  Usually ticking sounds like an old sewing machine.  Fuel injectors do tick as well - on some vehicles the noise is more prevelant and louder than others (due to engine design & injector location), it's just the pulsation of the injector function.

At what spots or locations on the engine have you used the stethoscope method?  Did you try it at each injector?  How about along the intake runners?  How about on either side of the valve cover or at different spots along the top of the cover?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 09:25:32 AM by Cobra Jet »
- Phil
1994 Cobra coupe #0013
2011 Genesis Coupe
2011 Tucson GLS

Cobra Jet

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2008, 09:30:08 AM »
Oh yea - w/ the valve cover off - if you have someone manually crank over the engine by hand (disconnect the ignition coils - so the car will NOT start) - you should be able to see the lifters function and the oil being pumped out of them (and how the oil is pumped throughout the valley in the head).  If there is a stuck or malfunctioning lifter, it will not pump oil out as efficiently as others (and again, you may also be able to hear a slight noise as the lifter is pumped up & drained).
- Phil
1994 Cobra coupe #0013
2011 Genesis Coupe
2011 Tucson GLS

nicknikolovski

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Ticking Possibly in the Valve Train
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2008, 05:33:10 AM »
Hi, sorry about the thin oil issue - i forget that it only really helps for cold start problems. So if I'm using 5W30 now, next service what should I change to? My car wasn't as noisy when I used 10W40.

Paul Strefling

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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2008, 06:36:56 PM »
I have got some updates. Unfortunately the car is over three hours aways from me, but I had my father do some more  stethoscope tests on it. He found that the noise was best heard in the plenum and runners as well as the headers. But no individual cylinder was more pronounced. The block was quite quiet he said. There is no distinct location on the valve cover that is louder either.

I am certain that it is not the injectors though; I have an m20 as well.

I am still quite confused on the subject. Almost everything points to a worn lifter besides the inability to distinctly hear it in the valve cover.

Any more thoughts on the situation? I am planing on driving up there this weekend with parts to fix this thing...

Paul Strefling

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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2008, 08:47:47 PM »
I am thinking that I may not be able to clearly hear the noise through the valve cover because of the provided insulation from the valve cover gasket, does that seem reasonable to anyone else?