Author Topic: educate me about turbo  (Read 9886 times)

strypt

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educate me about turbo
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2007, 04:02:56 PM »
Latheing pistons works pretty well in some engines like M20/M30 where they have a dome to remove but the M42 has proven not good for this. Or maybe these guys where pushing it too hard.

I don't have a whole lot of information on these M42 turbos but I know that one was running a MHI turbo (TD04HL-16T) and another one had some kind of Precision turbo, might have been a SC44 but I'm not sure. I'll try and see if I can find some photos.

Abrax

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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2007, 05:00:43 PM »
thank You for the info about theese turbochargers, it seems that they used traditionally designed turbo setup. This means that engine is comparably strong through wide range of rpm's. Big turbo idea leaves engine nearly stock up till the powerband and then 300rpm's step and You are in another world... I mean that You have 80HP's at 4000 and You have above 300 at 4500rpm's... /for example/

I like my idea far more -> Look it this way:
We understand HP's by torque multiplied by rpm's and something else. this means, that You double the power by doubling the torque /which generally affects piston pressure/ or doubling the engine speed /which is not safe because it would be too high reving for the inside parts.

But: look what will happen when we would put highest torque present in stock engine for example 2000 rpm's higher...

with stock setup and internals we would make much more power not affecting internals at all /I mean that we wouldn't put any more piston pressure but we would be able to get MUCH more HP's.../

Generally it is quite achievable when You put big turbo into this setup:
look what happens:
at stock peak torque turbine is not producing boost, so we have "stock" engine curves.
above stock peak torque our big turbo starts producing boost, what affects torque and risens it up. But in stock engine the torque was falling down, so we want to raise it just to the "stock engine peak torque" level...

And going up with rpm's, we keep the pressure regulator to give us "just" the amount of air needed to keep the torque at this level up to the red line...

Look at the torque/power graph for the M42 engine. I don't see it now, but generally the peak torque is 175Nm at 4300. At peak power we have just about 110Nm but at 6000 and this gives us 136 HP's. If we could raise the torque at this moment to the 175Nm level, the power output would raise about 1,59 times which gives us 216 Hp's... Still having completely stock pressure, torque or any inside strenghts. Of corse rpm's raise, engine wear is bigger, but the inside strenghts are nearly on the same level - not affecting internals more than while reving 4300 under full load.

Immagine 30% safe area. This means that stock engine can keep up to 130% of stock peak torque /175Nm*1,3=227,5Nm /, and this gives us 280Hp's at 6000rpm's

Heh we have just 30% more torque... It's not a black magic for a turbocharger ;-) But it has to be done near the red line...

Generally we've just build 280Hp's M42 with stock internals and it is still quite safe for them. Isn't it what You wanted to achieve oldboy? And the taste is that below the powerband You still have stock 1,8 ltr engine burning about 8-9 ltr per 100km !!!!!

BUT EVERYONE : I'm not the expert, this is my idea of building turboed M42 which will be done next winter ;-) I'm still collecting info and money for the project...
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 05:03:58 PM by Abrax »

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rob_e30

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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2007, 11:28:59 PM »
Abrax,
Have you built one or seen of these motors or is it still in the theory?

One challenge is that large turbos are ineffecient and generate a lot of extra heat outside of their "sweet spot" and I suspect an engine like you're describing would be challenging to drive and not much practical use.  If you want to keep the effecient 1.8L motor, it's still in there just don't stomp on the gas!

The proper sized turbo should give little to no lag at all and you should be able to moderate boost via the throttle.

Abrax

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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2007, 02:58:34 PM »
right, right... I believe it will work.... But it's not the common turbo setup. I've seen some from swedish sites build similarly, but mainly they were 8V 4cyl volvo engines...

I wonder to build one and that's alll :-)  I don't feel the lag will break the fun. It scholdn't matter while You are sprinting quarter mile....

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rob_e30

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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2007, 09:50:07 PM »
Quote from: Abrax;36814
I wonder to build one and that's alll :-)  I don't feel the lag will break the fun. It scholdn't matter while You are sprinting quarter mile....


Agreed that the adventure of building one can be half the fun, but building a 1/4 mile engine is VERY different from a road race car or street machine.  GL with the build.  I'd love to see what you come up with.

strypt

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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2007, 03:45:57 AM »
I found two pics of the installation, none on the broken pistons though. This is the one with the MHI (Mitsubishi) turbo. He was running 1.3 bar when the first piston failed, but all pistons had cracks in the same area. He then lower the boost to 1-1.1 bar but they failed again. He's now using forged pistons ;)

ApocolypseAutoEngineering

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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2007, 04:09:41 AM »
Quote from: Abrax;36814
right, right... I believe it will work.... But it's not the common turbo setup. I've seen some from swedish sites build similarly, but mainly they were 8V 4cyl volvo engines


If I'm not mistaken those Volvo engines HAD forged pistons stock. Alot of the older Volvos did, considering they were not a large company as they are now backed by Ford. At that time they had to out source for some of their products.

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Abrax

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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2007, 03:12:34 PM »
If I try to compare this MHI turbo to HX35 it is hmm... more than 2 times smaller...

http://www.holset.co.uk/files/2_1_1_3-Holset%20HX35.php

:-)

I believe that this MHI ha to make power in low end.... So it was made by strongly increasing torque, which was tooo much for a stock piston...

I will aim somewhere into 6700 or 7200 with lightened inner parts, and at first I will try with stock pistons.

I think they will stand it pretty well. Byt we will see.

Simply You will notice my turbo thread when I will start my work :-)

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strypt

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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2007, 04:15:00 AM »
They are small yes (physically) and will produce boost at low rpm's but they are still capable of ~300 hp (smallest one) to about 360-370 hp (biggest one with 46 mm inducer, 58 mm exducer). I believe the smallest HX35 also has 46 mm inducer, dunno about exducer, but still one shouldn't compare only outer dimensions on turbos. One good thing about these MHI's, except for the size and great spool, ;) is the fact that they come with a 360 degree bearing from factory which makes them very reliable and endurable at higher boost levels.
But yes you are correct, they are no alternative for your engine :)

Abrax

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« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2007, 02:19:42 PM »
I meant that if You are building turbocharged M42 with turbine producing boost down low, there is no other possibility to change pistons for the forged ones, because stock won't handle that great strenghts...

There is a possibility to create serious power w/o changing pistons, but You have to go big turbocharger, don't care about lag and rev it to see the power...

Anyway, if You are over 4000 the lag matters just till You spool the turbine for the first time, after this You have it  creating enough boost to change for the next gear... and You have it just that long, that You are reving high.

I feel it that way:

In normal driving You don't really rev Your engine. While city - city driving You don't really need serious power to overtake or normally accelerate. But if You want to race somebody or just disappear, You have to reduce 1 - 2 gears, rev Your engine high and off You go!!!

Consider that while normal driving You have just "stock appearing engine" with all it's benefits like high milleage or nice torque curve. Everything changes when You pass this magic 4000 to let Your turbine produce boost...

While having small turbo, You have much less "agressive" engine but You can't expect that high milleage reving 3000 because the engine is already under the boost....

I know, You will say that it is not like that, because You don't have to open the throttle that much, because You have stronger engine... But the truth is that the engine with smaller turbine will be definately less economic at 3000rpm.

Don't feel it? -> check it...

strypt:
I don't say that the turbines are not capable of making serious powers... i just wanted to say that this size of the turbo will make your exhaust filled very soon... So on one hand You make the engine to be strong and on the other side You put the plug in the exhaust just stopping Your engine from creating power near the red line...

From my point of view the optimal situation is when critical area of a turbo is not smaller than 14ccm. This lets M42 breath well... But the difficulty is that in this case A/R of the turbine is not really helping to spool it in the low end...

You guys place the ability to spool quickly much more important than me... But You probably won't get that kind of power at the high end...
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 02:42:49 PM by Abrax »

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oldtimer

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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2007, 08:51:52 PM »
I like what I read at least I think I got the big picture.  With stock parts in this case pistons I have to select a bigger turbo so the stock piston will handle the boost but the power from the boost will not come until I rev up the engine around 4k.  which is fine with me it is around that rpm range anyway when I would like the power for overtaking and just get some distance from people who likes to hang out together on the highway.  I drove a friend 1988 911 turbo when I did in order to feel that boost from the turbo one has to down shift and get the engine around 4k.  So If that is the case getting a bigger turbo so the stock parts will survive the boost.  What size are we talking?  T3 or t4.  I am not all that concern about the lag or waiting around 4k to get the power.  Around town being daily driving I rarely rev up beyond 4k to up shift.

rob_e30

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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2007, 09:49:31 PM »
T4 is still going to be too big.  I have a GT30XX on a 1.9+L race built motor and I'm getting some boost @3K and full by 4.

Abrax

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« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2007, 02:33:57 PM »
For precise info about Holset sizes ask Ixer on http://www.e30tech.com/forum/ - he is my "Holset guru" ;-)

I would calculate airflow of the stock M42 at 4000 rpm and compare it with efficient modern diesel truck turbocharger /like holset HX for example/.

You will find that truck diesel's  produce power near 1,5k rpm's with engines like 6 - 8 ltrs... Somewhere here rests the answer. If the 6 ltr diesel truck produces boost when their airflow reaches X and this X means airflow of the M42 at 4000 - You got it this turbocharger will start to produce boost with Your engine too. Of corse diesel's have much  higher exhaust pressures, but this should only mean that our gasoline engine will spool the turbine little slower.

So it may be right that T4 beeing smaller than a HX35 will be too big, and HX beeing even bigger will be ok. It depends on innertial construction of a turbine...
Holset is big, right, but very efficient and it is not really said that it will be too big...

find the old 1602 BMW on http://www.savarturbo.se -> http://www.savarturbo.se/?sida=content/bilarna.php&bil=peter Check the size of the turbine it is equipped with and has 2ltr's of displacement...

It will just produce power really high there.

I don't feel it would be good to leave just 500rpm's while using turbo which will start to create boost just over 6000...

But aim at 4000 rpm  and You will have nice bahaving 2k powerband quartermile  engine
I didn't also said that stock pistons will definately take this...

I said that If You plan to go turbocharged and don't want to spend fortune on it, there is possibility to stay with stock pistons, but You have to go big turbo. And keep in mind, that You definately shouldn't pass stock peak torque too much ;-) Also install big, big intercooler and knock detection!!!

I recommend http://www.vems.hu , http://www.holset.co.uk

also read more at http://www.e30tech.com
GOOD LUCK -)

560 km in 3 hours and 5 minutes completely legal!!!                  I love german highroads!!!