Author Topic: Do lifters go bad? (Read 8706 times)

bmwpower · « **on:** August 31, 2007, 05:19:39 PM »

Do lifters go bad when the head is overheated?

Do lifter go bad after 98k miles on them?

Can you tell if lifters are bad just by looking at the cams?

Should you replace the lifters without replacing the cams?

How do the lifters come out of the cam carriers?

gearheadE30 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 01, 2007, 08:25:20 AM »

1. Pretty much anything can go bad if it gets hot enough
2. If the car has had regular oil changes, no. The only reason they would fail was if they got clogged with sludge, being that they are hydraulic lifters.
3. I doubt it. I think the yeasiest thing to do (still not easy, mind you) would be to take the cam cover off and then rotate the engine by hand. remember to take out the spark plugs, or it will be about impossible to turn. The motion should be smooth, and it will generally alternate from hard-to-turn to easy-to-turn and back again. If the lifters rattle at all or the engine doesn't turn smoothly, cances are the lifters are bad. BTW there's probably an easyer way to check, but I don't know what it is

4. I think it would be safe to, and you could probly pick up a set of lightweight VW lifters while you're at it.
5. sorry, can't help you there...

bmwpower · « **Reply #2 on:** September 01, 2007, 09:43:24 AM »

Engine has 98k on it and was spotless inside. The cams looked new. I didn't hear any obvious lifter noise after the head cracked.

Machine shop is recommending I replace them, so instead of just handing them $317 for stock replacements, I'd like to make an informed decision as to whether they're needed or not and whether I should get something better than stock.

Also, what is the deal with these stock lifters? The machine shop said that if I didn't want to replace them, that they would have to "take them apart and clean them for about 4 hours worth of labor". Do they even come apart? Is this guy BSing me? If I keep the old ones, can't I just pop them back in on the new head??

Help guys!

sheepdog · « **Reply #3 on:** September 01, 2007, 10:18:54 AM »

The lifters do come apart, they are rather simple little things. Just a piston inside a shell if I remember right.

Not sure why that would require 4 hours of labor on an already disassembled head.

gearheadE30 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 03, 2007, 11:51:06 AM »

Why is the shop saying that the lifters are shot?

bmwpower · « **Reply #5 on:** September 03, 2007, 04:56:51 PM »

Quote from: gearheadE30;32983

Why is the shop saying that the lifters are shot?

Good question. I'm starting to wonder if they are taking me for a ride.

The guy originally quesitoned the condition of the lifters, so I said that the machinist could remove the cams since I needed them removed from the bad head anyway. I figured he would then be able to check the lifters at the same time. Well I got a call from the shop guy last week saying the lifters needed to be replaced. When I asked why, he said the machinist recommended it. So then I asked if he removed the cams. He said no. Then I said how could he tell they were bad? He said he looked "around" the cams. When I questioned again as to why, he said due to the mileage on the head and the fact it was overheated. Mileage?? I said, it's barely broken in! The head was super clean inside. He repeated again, the machinist recommended it. Other than the coolant in the oil, I can't see any sludge killing the lifters. I'm not sure how overheating an engine could kill the lifters (unless you grenaded it maybe). Then he said well if you want him to spend a half day removing, disassembling and cleaing the lifters, I could do that also. Yea, ok, I might as well buy new ones then.

I have no problem paying for something that really needs to be done. This doesn't sound like one of those times.

ose30 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 04, 2007, 08:13:45 AM »

Just press lifter from inside. If it moves easily you should change that. You should not supposed to have force enough to press them so the internals move. Lifters can usually take a lot of miles. The key thing is regular oil changes.

sheepdog · « **Reply #7 on:** September 04, 2007, 12:09:08 PM »

There is no way to check the lifters without removing them. Unless the cam surface is seriously worn, in which case, so would the cam lobes.

Once the cam is out, the lifters fall right out as nothing is left holding them in place.

Take your head to another shop. They are giving you the shaft.

Yes, replacing them is about as cheap as servicing them. Should be. Once the cam is off, you could check all of the lifters in less than an hour. Hell, removing the lifters is less than 5 minutes even.

Go to another shop.

If they have not even pulled the cams, then they have done nothing to the head yet. If you took them the head, go get it. Even if they charge you $50 or $100 for what they did do, get the head.

I will almost bet they will want to re-grind the valve seats next, and re-sleeve the valves.

$10 says this shop is not very busy. They saw BMW and figured you had some cash.

nomad · « **Reply #8 on:** September 04, 2007, 02:48:02 PM »

They can't pressure test the head without removing the cams, cam carrier, hydraulic lifters and carrier studs.
I took the cams out of the bad head I have. Once you carefully remove the cam bearing caps the cam lifts out. Then the cam carrier lifts out and the lifters fall right out. You cannot really see if the lifters are bad without all that taken out because they are a steel "cup" of sorts with the moving bits facing down in contact with the valve springs.

I think the shop is full of crap. I can see the sludgy oil/water mix getting into the lifters but after cleaning them out in a bath of oil you should be good. Not sure about not being able to compress them by hand, they should be filled with oil, but the oil will drain out in time. I can check when I go home as they are all wrapped in plastic sitting on my shelf.

The shop hasn't touched your cyl head. Maybe they'd rather "do it all right" which is to give you back a super clean, fresh, perfectly machined head with new parts etc but you should tell them how much work you are really looking to get done.
I'd be wary of letting them zip the bolts off the cams and take them out. They are not under al lot of tension but BMW cams are hollow and hardened, unlike other manufacturers, which can lead to breakage or bendage. More so on the inline 6.

cecotto · « **Reply #9 on:** September 04, 2007, 03:00:50 PM »

Quote from: sheepdog;33078

There is no way to check the lifters without removing them. Unless the cam surface is seriously worn, in which case, so would the cam lobes.

Actually you can diagose the lifters without pulling it all apart.

BMW as made extensive surveys on replaced lifters, and they found that a very large percentage og the replaced lifters did not have any faults. They have a document describing this.. But unfortunally i only have it in German.

They describe typical faults and how to diagnose.

One fault is that air has come into the system, this can happen in extreme cornering, and or if the oillevel has gone too low without refilling. They have also seen failed gaskets in the oilpump suction pipe. Resulting in airpockets on the lifters. The procedure for testing for this is to use a hardwood stick and load the lifter with approx. 1kg an pushing it a couple of times.. If it feels springy its almost certain its air in thesystem. (This test needs to be performed with the valve closed / The camlobe pointing away from the lifter)

Another test you can do is to test if the valve is leaking. Ensure that the valve is closed/lobe pointing away from the lifter. Now using your hard wood stick load the lifter with approx 3-4kg for 15-20 seconds, if it's being compressed slowly during this test. The lifter is faulty and needs to be replaced.

Using a analytical and systematic approach a good mechanic can diagnose this without too much trouble.

sheepdog · « **Reply #10 on:** September 05, 2007, 12:15:24 PM »

Quote from: cecotto;33095

Actually you can diagose the lifters without pulling it all apart.

BMW as made extensive surveys on replaced lifters, and they found that a very large percentage og the replaced lifters did not have any faults. They have a document describing this.. But unfortunally i only have it in German.

They describe typical faults and how to diagnose.

One fault is that air has come into the system, this can happen in extreme cornering, and or if the oillevel has gone too low without refilling. They have also seen failed gaskets in the oilpump suction pipe. Resulting in airpockets on the lifters. The procedure for testing for this is to use a hardwood stick and load the lifter with approx. 1kg an pushing it a couple of times.. If it feels springy its almost certain its air in thesystem. (This test needs to be performed with the valve closed / The camlobe pointing away from the lifter)

Another test you can do is to test if the valve is leaking. Ensure that the valve is closed/lobe pointing away from the lifter. Now using your hard wood stick load the lifter with approx 3-4kg for 15-20 seconds, if it's being compressed slowly during this test. The lifter is faulty and needs to be replaced.

Using a analytical and systematic approach a good mechanic can diagnose this without too much trouble.

Air getting in, does not mean you need to replace the lifter.
There is no way to install new lifters without getting air in them.

I am interested to see exactly how install is performed without compressing the lifter and it sucking air back in as soon as you start the car because as soon as the engine rotates, you are compressing and decompressing the lifter without oil pressure, with no oil near it will inevitably suck air when the cam rotates back off of the lifter.

Granted most of the air "should" bleed back out once oil pressure comes up, but there will always be some as air rises, and there is no bleed port at the top.
Even performing this test in fact can inject air into the lifter.

Lifters bleed down while sitting, what replaces that oil... air. It is normal.

And yes, lifters can go bad, they wear and bleed down too fast. This makes noise and does not fully open the valve.

bmwman91 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 05, 2007, 02:52:30 PM »

My $.02 regarding these...

I have been told that the top of the lifters is supposed to be slightly convex (outwardly "bowed"), and over time it becomes slightly concave. While this is not really a problem as far as running, supposedly it adds to noisy lifter ticking.

The shop sounds like it is trying to pull a fast one on you. Take it elsewhere.

Who here has put new lifters in? Has this eliminated loud ticking? Mine is bad and I just cannot decide if it would be worth it to pull the head apart to check.

nomad · « **Reply #12 on:** September 05, 2007, 05:36:59 PM »

You should be able to take the cams out without too much trouble. (that is certainly relative)

Take valve cover off, take sparkplugs out,
set engine to TDC, ziptie chain to gears,
remove cam gears, back off TDC on crank by 1/4 turn,
slowly remove all cam bearing caps 1/4 turn at a time,
lift out cams, lift out cam carrier, collect hydraulic lifters, clean and check.

Assembly is reverse of dissasembly.

bmwpower · « **Reply #13 on:** September 05, 2007, 09:11:28 PM »

Quote from: nomad;33161

You should be able to take the cams out without too much trouble. (that is certainly relative)

Take valve cover off, take sparkplugs out,
set engine to TDC, ziptie chain to gears,
remove cam gears, back off TDC on crank by 1/4 turn,
slowly remove all cam bearing caps 1/4 turn at a time,
lift out cams, lift out cam carrier, collect hydraulic lifters, clean and check.

Assembly is reverse of dissasembly.

I'm just going to pay the shop the $100 for deinstall and reinstall. I'm too worried I'm gonna screw something up

bmwpower · « **Reply #14 on:** September 05, 2007, 09:14:25 PM »

Update....

I went back to the shop and talked to the guy first hand. He said if I wanted to go with the current lifters that wouldn't be a problem. Seem like either I misunderstood him on the phone or he's changing his tune. So I decided to go with using the old lifters. If it's a problem down the road, I can always replace them then. I see no reason why I should change them now.

Totally recondition the head...$699 (valve job, balance and blueprint valve train stuff, resurface, etc)
Remove/reinstall cams, etc...$100
Total...$799

Worth it to get the car back on the road, I guess.