Author Topic: How do I get the fronts lower?  (Read 12273 times)

achtungE30

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 08:15:43 PM »
Quote from: Alpine003;30165
It's called style and bling points for some of these guys. All they want is the looks and that Euro stretch. I'm guessing the op is probably under 30yo if my guess is right. It seems the rage to have a certain Euro-stretch coupled with a low stance for a lot of the younger cats on these boards.;)


Wow, are you generalizing me? Please don't do that.:rolleyes:
So by your implication age > 30 = taste? sheesh. I'll have to remember that when a new member comes on here and I have the information he needs.

Yes, i'm 27. Yes I do enjoy the euro stretched look and I was just toying with the idea about getting the front gap reduced or eliminated. I have always admired the e30 at the tender ages of 8-14 and convinced my father to finally get a 3-series coupe in 1992, although unfortunately it was by then the e36. I learned to drive in this e36 and have been a BMW fanatic since my eyes first saw the e24 6-series in the mid 80s.

Like I stated, it was just an idea. Sorry!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 08:31:12 PM by achtungE30 »

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Wise Old Dog

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2007, 09:14:28 PM »
I'm over 50 and I like the lowered look myself. My car is probably lower than actungs. I think there is a fantastic mix of ages and cultures on this board, and we certainly don't want to put anyone down for having tastes different from our own. I do think your tires are what gives the tall look to your car, they look kinda short. Just my 2 cents.

Alpine003

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2007, 10:46:50 PM »
Quote from: achtungE30;30593
Wow, are you generalizing me? Please don't do that.:rolleyes:
So by your implication age > 30 = taste? sheesh. I'll have to remember that when a new member comes on here and I have the information he needs.

Yes, i'm 27. Yes I do enjoy the euro stretched look and I was just toying with the idea about getting the front gap reduced or eliminated. I have always admired the e30 at the tender ages of 8-14 and convinced my father to finally get a 3-series coupe in 1992, although unfortunately it was by then the e36. I learned to drive in this e36 and have been a BMW fanatic since my eyes first saw the e24 6-series in the mid 80s.

Like I stated, it was just an idea. Sorry!


Chill Bro, I think you are reading way into it. I never said anything about taste. I never stated whether that looked good or not. I never insulted you in any way. I was merely trying to explain it to people that don't understand the reasoning or the look.

I was just stating a general trend which you do fit into since you are under 30 and do like the Eurostretch look. Those are the facts. There are no opinions stated. Just the facts.

I personally do like the Eurostretch look on some cars including yours. I just personally wouldn't do it since I'm a performance junky and would rather gain a bit more slip angle on more meat.

I like it when people do their own thing as that is what car customizing is all about regardless if other people like it or not. Do not let me nor anyone else get your panties in a bunch over such a subjective topic.;)

Daan E30

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2007, 06:35:29 AM »
Just drop it with shorter springs or put higher tyrer on it.
For the same reason as you I have switched to bigger tyres.
Than the gap is not so big, and your oilpan gets a little more groundclearance.
I also added the drop hats. The brand is Bonrath, but I think it's the same.
They lower an extra cm (1/2") and now I can life with it.
Never have problems with the oilpan.
And the Europe style is OK ;)

achtungE30

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2007, 08:26:11 AM »
What shorter springs do you recommend?
The only shorter springs I can think of are Intrax but the drop would be much more extreme.

Also, while running 205/40/16, i'm just 1-2mm from rubbing up on the front strut inserts even with 15mm spacers. So to go to a 205/45 series tire might be pushing it. The rears have 8mm spacers now and the fenders are rolled as best as could be but if I hit a big enough dip in the highway at higher speeds (not even bottoming out), you hear the tire brush the inner fender. The good news is the rear suspension is where I want it to be already.

The Bekker drop hats are definitely an option but they are on backorder here in the U.S. - again, my gripes about this are purely from a cosmetic perspective. I love the look as is but lower would be nicer.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 08:28:51 AM by achtungE30 »

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rfritz

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2007, 01:53:03 PM »
IMHO - I think your decision will boil down to looks versus performance. Do you want it to look good or do you want it to work properly? I had a set of 17" wheels on my car and chucked them for factory 14 basketweaves. It looked cool, but the performance sucked. It has nothing to do with your situation, but the rotational weight of the 17's was off the charts compared to the factory wheels. I may be wrong, but the difference in height may be attributed to the springs being designed for a 325 engine weight. I personally wouldn't cut any springs to alter height.

Also - everyone repeat after me.....

Rims = motorcycles, bicycles

Wheels = autos

;)

Just some food for thought.

achtungE30

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2007, 02:03:03 PM »
I have a spare set of 15x7 koseis for performance :)
For now, I wanted some aesthetic appeal.

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Mannix

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2007, 04:54:02 PM »
Cutting a dead coil off ("dead" being one that is coilbound when the car's weight is on it) won't hurt anything, and is functionally no different than "get shorter springs."  

Those that have mentioned shock travel issues are correct - if you lower the car too much & eat up all your shock travel, it'll bottom out harshly - but to my eye, you're not "there" yet.  

Measure twice, cut once, though.  I've not looked at an H&R "Race" spring, not sure what they have in the way of dead coils that you could cut.  If you cut an "undead" coil, IE, one that is still an active part of the spring when the car is on the ground, your rate will increase - not necessarily a bad thing, as you're taking usable wheel travel away in the process.  

Too many cars out there are lowered too much.  This one does not look "too low" to me, I think a chunk of deadcoil could be removed without any issues.  Maybe look to see how much travel you're currently using before cutting?  

Putting bigger wheels on to fill the gap is going to raise the car (overall), hurt gearing, ehh, wrong answer, IMHO.

I guess if it were me, I'd A) measure from the center of the wheel to the lip of the fender (or something repeatable).  B) Take spring off.  C) Bolt wheel on car (car is on jackstands, duh), use a jack to move the wheel around.  Put it back where it was on the ground - center of the wheel to the repeatable lip of fender.  Jack it all the way up - measure.  How much travel?  Lower it, figure out where you want it, etc etc etc.  

Lowering a car is not rocket science, but hacking springs up "this" much without any thought is not smart, either (I don't get the impression there are too many of "those" people here).  That said, the H&R people certainly _DID_ engineer very carefully in their "race" springs, as they need to hit a pretty small target with those - lower quite a bit, don't overpower stock dampers, stiff enough to not bottom, not so stiff that the customers complain (they're nowhere _near_ real racing spring rates).  

They've got a tightrope to walk.  You just have to make yourself happy - the H&R "Race" springs are a really good starting point - I'd do all the measurements, cut some off, try again - just remember, it is hard to stick it back on:).

.02c


Iain (new here, owned a 318is for a few years, lots of experience messing with suspensions....)

rfritz

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2007, 07:15:57 PM »
Before you cut them, sell them to me. Shoot me a good price and you have a deal.

bmwman91

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2007, 07:47:20 PM »
Deeper spring hats and no rubber pads.  I ran without the pads for years and it did not seem to make much of a difference in noise with performance springs.

Uhoh, M42Club must be getting big.  Arguments about style are breaking out....let's keep it friendly everyone.

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b318isp

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2007, 03:16:58 AM »
Quote from: Mannix;30740
Cutting a dead coil off ("dead" being one that is coilbound when the car's weight is on it) won't hurt anything, and is functionally no different than "get shorter springs."  


There are no dead coils on the front of the E30. The springs will be stiffer after being cut and heat affects can change their characteristics.

In addition, the suspension is getting into excessive negative camber (for the road) territory.

Quote from: Mannix;30740
Putting bigger wheels on to fill the gap is going to raise the car (overall), hurt gearing, ehh, wrong answer, IMHO.


But he has the wrong circumfrance tyres on in the first place...

achtungE30

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2007, 08:42:27 AM »
Quote from: b318isp;30781
There are no dead coils on the front of the E30. The springs will be stiffer after being cut and heat affects can change their characteristics.

In addition, the suspension is getting into excessive negative camber (for the road) territory.



But he has the wrong circumfrance tyres on in the first place...

What is wrong with a 16" tire on an E30? Do you mean width as in 205mm - 205/40/16?

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Mannix

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2007, 09:54:10 AM »
Quote from: b318isp;30781
There are no dead coils on the front of the E30. The springs will be stiffer after being cut and heat affects can change their characteristics.


Even on the E30 H&R Race springs?  Most of the ones I've seen do have several dead coils at the bottom of the spring.

A spring is simply a torsion bar in a coil; when the spring compresses, the wire actually twists.  There are two things that affect spring rate - length of the torsion bar and diameter of the wire.  

Most of the stock-location aftermarket "race" springs use a thinner wire and a bunch of dead coils to effectively shorten the active part of the spring (as once the dead coils are in coilbind, they no longer twist).  This winds up with 2-4 coils of usable spring(torsion bar), thereby allowing for a thinner wire.

The heat certainly will affect the characteristics of the wire.   That said, if there are dead coils (anyone have a picture of an H&R e30 race spring?), it won't matter - a dead coil is just taking up space.  If there are no dead coils, ehhh, I don't think it'll hurt a thing - I've cut several sets of springs over the years (Audi 100 {old Audi 100} rear springs make great VW Rabbit rear autocross springs for those on a budget), I've had zero issues.  Add that personal experience to the (literally) thousands of people who have cut their own springs, well, I don't think the heat-issue is truly an issue.

Is the "right" spring the right answer?  Sure.  Does the car know the difference?  Nope.  Not as long as the spring does not break.

Quote from: b318isp;30781

In addition, the suspension is getting into excessive negative camber (for the road) territory.


Two things - negative camber does not kill tires, toe does.  I've run as much as 3.5 degrees on the street; my inside edges _absolutely_ wore faster than the outside edges, but by the time the insides were done, the rest of the tire was close behind.  Secondly, MacPherson Strut suspensions _lose_ negative camber (gain positive camber) as soon as the control arm goes beyond parallel to the ground - if the control arm is pointed "up" to the wheel from the body, it has less negative camber than if it were parallel.

The rear is another story - the rear does go far more negative, but he's not talking about lowering the rear more.  


Quote from: b318isp;30781

But he has the wrong circumfrance tyres on in the first place...


So?  Stock size is 195/60-14, right?  He's got a 205/40-16?  

195/60-14 23.21" diameter
205/40-16 22.45" diameter

So, the difference is .76" shorter.  Not bad.  .38" difference in wheel gap (divide difference by two to figure out how much the car was lowered by the wheels).  

That's not bad.  Using a shorter diameter wheel can be _very_ good for handling - it reduces gear ratio, center of gravity, etc.  

Don't forget that BMW spec'd a tire for the car's intended purpose - once you start narrowing it's intended purpose, things can change.  Changing wheel and tire dimensions does wonders for performance - I'm currently running 275/35-15s on a 15x10.5" wheel on my autocross 2002 (which is street legal, fwiw), the enginerds at BMW certainly did not _intend_ for that much tire, and if the car does start tearing itself apart because of that much tire, I'll not complain - but the results are certainly worthwhile.

Dunno.  I don't think there's any problem with cutting the springs.  Are there better answers?  Sure!  Are there cheaper answers?  Nope.  Is it _bad_?  No - not at all.  As long as the car does not run out of shock travel, things will be OK.  Would it be better to get shortened struts (cutting and welding or threading the strut tube), coilover sleeves and doing it right?  Yup - but if he's happy with the ride quality & has the means to chop of a small chunk of spring, he should just cut the spring - he just needs to ensure that he's not cutting too much off.

It is not rocket science.  Cutting springs is a bit crude, but it works - and in this particular case, I think it has merit - I think he could achieve all of his goals with a Sawzall without making any sacrifices.



Iain

Alpine003

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2007, 12:26:54 PM »
Quote from: Mannix;30794
I'm currently running 275/35-15s on a 15x10.5" wheel on my autocross 2002 (which is street legal, fwiw),
Iain



Pics? Also what kind of drivetrain are you running to support those meaty tires? I didn't realize there were tires still made in those sizes.

Doesn't the wide tires sacrifice some of your steering, especially in an auto-x situation vs. road racing?

Mannix

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How do I get the fronts lower?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2007, 12:44:15 PM »
Drivetrain is SP-legal - fresh bottom end/head, stock internals (balanced but not lightened), Megasquirt, Supersprint header, 2.25" pipe into a single chamber Flowmaster.  Makes ~115 SAE corrected at the wheels.  

I was using 13x9s with 225/50-13 Kumhos prior; the car got a bit taller with the bigwheels, but I lowered it more to compensate.  

Steering response is better than the Kumhos.  Grip is astounding, but it should be - we added a LOT more tire.  It got a touch slower off the line, but that was never the car's strong suit to begin with - and now we have to slow down _less_, so, well, yeah, it works.  

Not for the faint of heart when it comes to cutting sheetmetal, though - a LOT got removed.  Need to get flares, do bodywork, etc - making it fast first, pretty later.



Iain