Author Topic: Engine Managment Systems (Read 13854 times)

Master · « **on:** June 18, 2007, 06:06:12 AM »

After a while of comparison, consideration and confusion I decided to start this thread. :confused:
I hope it will bring some clarity and order into the myriad of different controllers/piggybacks/standalones/converters etc. surrounding the automotive enthusiast

The List:

Product: LC-1; Type: Wideband O2 Sensor Controller; Company: Innovate Motorsports;
Main Features: 2 programmable outputs; auto calibration; software;
Current Price: LC-1 controller with Bosch sensor 199 USD;

Product: 2J1; Type: Wideband O2 Sensor Controller; Company: Tech Edge;
Main Features: analogue channel capture and RPM capture; auto calibration; software;
Current Price: 2J1 controller with Bosch sensor ~199 USD;

Product: ZT2; Type: Wideband O2 Sensor Controller; Company: Zeitronix;
Main Features: RPM, EGT, MAP, TPS input; software;
Current Price: ZT2 controller with Bosch O2 sensor 279 USD;

Product: JAW (Just Another Wideband); Type: Wideband O2 Sensor Controller; Company: --;
Main Features: 2 programmable outputs; software;
Current Price: DIY kit without display 45 USD;

Product: SMT6/SMT7; Type: Piggyback; Company: Perfect Power;
Main Features: Allows to adjust ignition timing, fuel, MAF;
Current Price: 407 USD SMT6 / 568 USD SMT7;

Product: VEMS V3.3; Type: Standalone; Company: --;
Main Features: Integrated WBO2 controller; 2 Knock sensors; 2 EGT sensors;
Current Price: ~700 USD;

Product: Mega Squirt II Extra; Type: Standalone; Company: --;
Main Features: very similar to VEMS with addition of expansion daughter boards; Full List;
Current Price: Mega Squirt II DIY Kit ~ 250USD + additional expansion boards ~70$;

Product: Adaptronic; Type: Standalone; Company: Adaptronic;
Main Features: very feature rich, see list for details; Full List;
Current Price: 1200 USD;

Product: M400; Type: Standalone; Company: MoTeC;
Main Features: feature rich, expandable feature for a fixed fee, see list for details; Full List;
Current Price: ~3600 USD;

Product: LEMG3; Type: Standalone; Company: Link;
Main Features: very feature rich, see list for details; Full List;
Current Price: ~ 910 USD;

This is by no means a full list of available products on the market, there are, a lot of other with varying price/performance

The Goal:

Discuss most popular and available products, find out which systems or their combination are most cost effective for managing/tuning our engines.

Master · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:18:21 AM »

Initially wanted to include, more products in the list, but it turns out to be somewhat time consuming, so stay tuned for updates.

Would be interesting to find out, if there is some advanced piggyback system that can handle a wideband O2 sensor, MAF conversion, hotter cams, and retain drivebility + smooth idle of the stock ECU without braking the bank

I'm not planning to go forced induction, so boost control or some crazy methanol/water/NOS injections don't interest me.

Maybe someday we can include bmwman91's MAF conversion kit into the list (if he decides to market it)

Master · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:50:23 AM »

Ok, after some further reading into this matter, found out that it is difficult for some to tune with a piggyback system.
What concerns other enthusiast is
1) the fact that you have to pay local tuning shops for configuring the piggyback (I think it can be done yourself with the help of wide band O2 sensor)
2) and the fact that the ECU overrides any changes made by the piggyback any time it detects light knock and thus may result in lower performance than stock (others say that this happens because the tuning shops do a slack job of configuring the piggyback)

Would be interesting to hear your opinions on this matter

Tor Arne Kaasen · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2007, 09:01:10 AM »

ps. by VEMS Standalone whit wideO2 knock ignition injector.

bmwman91 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2007, 10:30:52 AM »

Megasquirt is probably the most cost-effective. With V3, or the V1 + "-Extra" code, it is not too hard to do. Buying your own wide-band sensor is a must.

A lot of the stand-alones use a MAP sensor. This has some benefits, and some drawbacks. Either way, you would not need a MAF sensor on there. The tough part is though, that if you want to just run fuel with the stand-alone, you need to leave the AFM on the car. If the ECU loses that signal (and is still controlling the ignition timing), it will give you a nice red Check Engine Light and retard the timing a lot. This would sorta defeat the whole purpose lol.

So, you have to do fuel AND spark to the Megasquirt/other system. If you want the Motronic to still control the cluster gauges, you would need to either unplug the Check Engine light bulb, or find a clever way to simulate the inputs to the module.

It is a complicated bit of business, dealing with the stand-alones. I learned a lot from the countless mistakes I made along the way when I Megasquirte my first 318iS. There is a reason I left the stock management alone on the second one lol!

Master · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2007, 01:55:13 PM »

Quote from: Tor Arne Kaasen;27972

ps. by VEMS Standalone whit wideO2 knock ignition injector.

Thanks for the tip, this standalone is really powerful :eek: and cheap

So as it now stands, the solution to a complete engine management would be either:

Mega Squirt V3 board (for fuel and ignition) + wideband controller (such as VC-1) (to correctly setup the fueling/ignition tables) roughly 600$ (250$ for MS + 300$ for VC-1)

VEMS V3.3 Engine Management System which basically eliminates the need for an additional WBO2 controller, and takes care of anything you can through at your engine, providing you have enough time to configure it all

All this for roughly 700$

Well the VEMS system seems more favorable, but both standalones have the drawback of being tricky to to install.
On the other hand, a piggyback being more easy to install, doesn't provide the full pack of features and ads the complexity of the stock ECU interfering with the whole process of tuning.

This is how I see it anyway.

bmwman91 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2007, 03:26:20 PM »

Can the VEMS dealy control the gauge cluster as well? It would be sweet if it did.

Master · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2007, 03:53:19 PM »

Quote from: bmwman91;28003

Can the VEMS dealy control the gauge cluster as well? It would be sweet if it did.

Well, no it doesn't apparently, so you still have to keep the stock ECU and remove the "Check Engine" light as you wrote above, but it has a digital output for an LCD like this one:

You can check the full feature list here: VEMS Specs

P.S. BTW I love your South Park reference

Master · « **Reply #8 on:** June 18, 2007, 04:34:29 PM »

After some googling, drinking mineral water and some more googling I found this thread at driftworks.com concerning standalone ECU's (pics of happy turbocharged bmw's owners running VEMS inside).

D. Clay · « **Reply #9 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:30:45 PM »

Not sure of the cost but Motec is great stuff. I was at a track when they were developing it. The car owner took the ECU and threw it on the passenger side floor (sheet metal). The Motec's guy's eyes got real big as the car drove off. It worked great.

Master · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2007, 03:27:15 AM »

Quote from: D. Clay;28022

Not sure of the cost but Motec is great stuff. I was at a track when they were developing it. The car owner took the ECU and threw it on the passenger side floor (sheet metal). The Motec's guy's eyes got real big as the car drove off. It worked great.

Yes, MOTEC is what the pros with unlimited budget use, but for normal people I just don't see the benefit of paying a quadruple price for something, that can be achieved with Mega Squirt for example.

To prove my point, I just checked their offerings, and the most optimal for our cars would be the M400 system (as it is specifically designed for 4 cylinders). Well, it's feature list clearly doesn't justify the price: �1791.88 inc vat for the unit, and another �440.63 inc vat for the wide band lambda control upgrade…

Then again it might be what quality is really worth…

Master · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2007, 04:20:40 AM »

Ok, doing a little cleanup of my post, as they where somewhat non informative and misleading.

Important thing to note is that almost all standalone/piggyback solutions require a separate wideband O2 controller if you are planning on using a wideband (VEMS being a rare exception)

Master · « **Reply #12 on:** June 19, 2007, 04:31:12 AM »

Adaptronic seems to be an even more advanced standalone system, here's the feature list:

* 3D Dual Fuel and Ignition maps
* Configurable ignition and injection outputs to suit different applications
* Inputs for water temperature, air temperature, auxiliary temperature (e.g turbo bearing housing temp), manifold air pressure, throttle position, knock sensor, EGO (exhaust gas oxygen)
* Outputs for four injector groups - allows full sequential injection on a 4-cylinder, or semi-sequential injection on a 6- or 8- cylinder. Up to 16 cylinder engines.
* Outputs for two igniter groups - allows for wasted spark systems on 4-cylinder and 6 cylinder, or conventional distributor systems.
* Special features for programmable EFI for oddfire V6 engines such as the PRV V6 found in the Delorean and Renault V6
* Eight configurable auxiliary outputs - four of which are configurable as high current outputs, three of which are PWM capable.
* PC interface
* Field upgradeable firmware
* Eight configurable auxiliary digital inputs
* Datalogging via PC software

Special Features

* The most advanced self learning adaptive fuel control - with configurable tolerances and loop gains, and conditions under which adaptive behaviour takes place.
* Selectable AFR against load and RPM (including high load WOT) for adaptive system to converge to.
* Adaptive learning can be used fully transparent to driving - allowing engine use whilst ECU adapts to any engine modifications, cams, boost increase, exhaust modifications...
* Fueling - Open loop, Closed loop, and two adaptive modes - Rapid learning and slow converging.
* Rapid self mapping even from virgin base maps.
* Dual ignition and Fuel maps.
* Narrow-band (factory EGO sensor) closed loop fuel control.
* 5v Wideband EGO Sensor control.
* Direct Serial Plug in for the following Wideband. controllers - Direct digital link, no need for analogue connection.
* Direct serial plug in for M&W UEGO LS4 Wideband controller.
* Direct serial plug in for TechEdge Wideband controller.
* Direct serial plug in for Innovate Motorsports LC1 Wideband Controller.
* Direct control for Zeitronic Wideband Controller.
* High current programmable outputs - allows direct drive of solenoid valves for boost control, air bypass etc..
* Special function programmable outputs - allows control of water injection (against inlet air temp), nitrous systems, anti-pollution purge valves, air conditioners etc in relation to user defined value of any sensor.
* Open-loop idle bypass control - allows configuration of increased idle bypass amount based on low battery, electrical load, air conditioner etc..
* Programmable for infinite different crank angle sensor waveforms, with up to 3 trigger inputs, and allows input with teeth that are increments of a degree apart, or non symmetrical odd teeth trigger wheels.
* Two stage soft and hard RPM limiting, with choice of Fuel Cut, ignition cut, or simultaneous.
* Electronic wastegate boost level control.
* Electronic BOV control - Select activation via MAP level, TPS voltage and duration of opening.
* Engine warm-up temperature related rev limiting.
* Ability to work and self calibrate with nearly all original engine sensors.
* Selectable Batch fire on crank when set to sequential mode for extra fuel on starting.
* Sophisticated Ignition knock control, with selective blanking between certain crank angle points, user definable knock map, allowing user to tell the ECU to ignore certain engine noise, e.g created from valve train at certain RPM/loads, engine mounting, and active filtering of background engine noise.
* Warm up / Cold start enrichment.
* Very advanced asyncronomynous throttle enrichment - allowing extra fueling to be added, independant and between the regular injector pulses. Programmable from seperate map.
* Stepper motor and solenoid idle speed control.
* 5v Linear throttle pot input or digital throttle switches capability.
* Vehicle Speed input control and actuation.
* In gear RPM sensing with boost and load control.
* Turbo timer - user selectable for temperature and duration.
* Nitrous oxide solenoid triggering with user selectable fuel enrichment and ignition retardation.
* Full throttle flat gear shifting, with selectable RPM parameters.

Although it doesn't have an integrated wideband controller

Master · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2007, 04:57:46 AM »

Ok, as it stands now, the battle is between these standalone systems:
OMEX 600 vs VEMS V3.3 vs Adaptronic E420C

Pros:
VEMS: integrated wideband controller; configurable knock sensors; price
OMEX: Advanced support for tachometers, traction/launch control
Adaptronic: Super advanced management options

Cons:
VEMS: Not as feature rich as Adaptronic
OMEX: Limited in Spark/Injector control; not as feature rich as Adaptronic
Adaptronic: Price

Price:
VEMS: �340 +VAT
OMEX: �545 +VAT + Price of Wideband controller
Adaptronic: �600 + Price of Wideband controller

So the OMEX appears to be a no deal compared to Adaptronic, and VEMS is a bargain for the price…

I would love go with the Adaptronic + Wideband, but it would require me to sell a kidney or smthn

D. Clay · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2007, 11:41:19 AM »

Quote from: Master;28064

Yes, MOTEC is what the pros with unlimited budget use, but for normal people I just don't see the benefit of paying a quadruple price for something, that can be achieved with Mega Squirt for example.

To prove my point, I just checked their offerings, and the most optimal for our cars would be the M400 system (as it is specifically designed for 4 cylinders). Well, it's feature list clearly doesn't justify the price: �1791.88 inc vat for the unit, and another �440.63 inc vat for the wide band lambda control upgrade�

Then again it might be what quality is really worth�

I am waiting on a price for a system specifically for the M42. I'll post it as soon as I get it. The software is definitely first rate but the price may be prohibitive as noted above.