ITB's info/projects

Author Topic: ITB's info/projects  (Read 147107 times)

m44power

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« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2009, 02:54:16 PM »
I have some questions about ITB's to disscus with you guys here ....

shorter runners are good for high rpms and longer for low -mid rpms we all ready know why ....

so...

1. Why m3 e36 3.0 with 286hp use long runners and m3 3.0 GT's with 290hp and m3 3.2 with 321hp use sort runners? some 3.0litre people upgrade the runners with EVO ones.

2. e30 m3's have 8.5 litre intake plenum for 2.0-2.5 litre engines. We need big intake plenums?

3. Why metric mechanic in camber pulse intake make tha tube so sort ?it wasnt better if the make them longer ? or make more distance from the intake valve ?

4. dbillas desing use short runners and small plenum and far away the butterfly from the valve . what about this?

5. every m3 have the Maf in the center of the plenum (dbillas too) CSL;s and every other plenum i have see it have the maf boot in the front. which is better?

6. some engines uses metal runners and some others use plastic ones . which is better?

one more

7. how long it has to be the runner in to the plenum ? does it matter ? dbillas does not put the runner in the plenum why?

only this for the momment .

(sorry for my "inglish" )
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 03:08:50 PM by m44power »

HaNasich

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« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2009, 05:24:17 PM »
i can only answer number 6 - of which i know from Peugeot engines - plastic runners are far better as they are smother and isolating from heat much better than metal.
in case the runners doesn't have to support weight (serious weight) than plastic is better.

as for number 5 -  the location of MAF - i dont think its much of a performance perspective but ease of implementation.
if the case was about flap-door AFM than it should have been taking into consideration, as the door movement effects the chamber volume and air flow, but MAF effect is neglect able.



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m44power

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« Reply #77 on: March 22, 2009, 08:57:13 AM »
I have one more point that im thinking today if i didnt use a plenum with my ITB's only with straght line runners with some stand alone ECU runner longer does it matter ?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 09:15:25 AM by m44power »

m44power

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« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2009, 05:42:12 PM »
no one?

Boyracer

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« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2009, 04:04:38 PM »
Can you reword the question, I did not quite understand it :)

m44power

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« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2009, 05:09:44 PM »
Quote from: m44power;68627
I have some questions about ITB's to disscus with you guys here ....

shorter runners are good for high rpms and longer for low -mid rpms we all ready know why ....

so...

1. Why m3 e36 3.0 with 286hp use long runners and m3 3.0 GT's with 290hp and m3 3.2 with 321hp use sort runners? some 3.0litre people upgrade the runners with EVO ones.

2. e30 m3's have 8.5 litre intake plenum for 2.0-2.5 litre engines. We need big intake plenums?

3. Why metric mechanic in camber pulse intake make tha tube so sort ?it wasnt better if the make them longer ? or make more distance from the intake valve ?

4. dbillas desing use short runners and small plenum and far away the butterfly from the valve . what about this?

5. every m3 have the Maf in the center of the plenum (dbillas too) CSL;s and every other plenum i have see it have the maf boot in the front. which is better?

6. some engines uses metal runners and some others use plastic ones . which is better?

one more

7. how long it has to be the runner in to the plenum ? does it matter ? dbillas does not put the runner in the plenum why?

only this for the momment .

(sorry for my "inglish" )


:cool:

Boyracer

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« Reply #81 on: March 27, 2009, 03:46:53 AM »
Ah these... I thought I had answered earlier :)

Quote from: m44power;68627
1. Why m3 e36 3.0 with 286hp use long runners and m3 3.0 GT's with 290hp and m3 3.2 with 321hp use sort runners? some 3.0litre people upgrade the runners with EVO ones.


3.2 engine revs little bit higher so to tune intake for it, runners must be shorter. Also, 3.2 engine has double vanos (I think) which should give more power in low and middle range so intake system can be more optimized to give more power on high revs.

Quote from: m44power;68627
2. e30 m3's have 8.5 litre intake plenum for 2.0-2.5 litre engines. We need big intake plenums?


Intake plenum size has some effect on power curve but I have not seen too many ways to calculate it. Personally I would try to copy race car designs which usually are as large as possible permitted by the available space.

Quote from: m44power;68627
3. Why metric mechanic in camber pulse intake make tha tube so sort ?it wasnt better if the make them longer ? or make more distance from the intake valve ?


I think MM pulse intake is ordinary E30 itnake with one pulse chamber in each runner. It seems to work in a way that on certain rpm's pressure waves going away from intake valve up in the intake runner goes to chamber and is reflected by the dead end.

Quote from: m44power;68627
4. dbillas desing use short runners and small plenum and far away the butterfly from the valve . what about this?


Well I think they work ok but I suspect they are not 100% as optimized as for example BMW Motorsport intake designs. Dbilas uses same components in different models from different car manufacturers so there is going to be some compromises.

Quote from: m44power;68627
5. every m3 have the Maf in the center of the plenum (dbillas too) CSL;s and every other plenum i have see it have the maf boot in the front. which is better?


I think again is best to look at race cars, they have tried most things out to see what works. And usually the intake plenum opens towards front of the car to give shorter path to air and smaller angle for air to turn while entering plenum.

I would personally go for CSL design :)

Quote from: m44power;68627
6. some engines uses metal runners and some others use plastic ones . which is better?


I think plastic might be better. It conducts less heat so air entering engine is cooler and gives more power (thats why S50 engine has ceramic insulators between cylinder head and ITB's I guess). I think plastic is also lighter. But metal runners might be easier to make iuf you have tools.

Quote from: m44power;68627
7. how long it has to be the runner in to the plenum ? does it matter ? dbillas does not put the runner in the plenum why?


Usually race car runners end to the plenum wall, on road cars runners enter plenum maybe 50 - 100 mm. I would again go with the race car design :)

m44power

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« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2009, 01:44:39 PM »
nice :)

m44power

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« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2009, 01:49:30 PM »
Quote from: Boyracer;68998
3.2 engine revs little bit higher so to tune intake for it, runners must be shorter. Also, 3.2 engine has double vanos (I think) which should give more power in low and middle range so intake system can be more optimized to give more power on high revs.

good point but some 3.0 guys retrofit 3.2 runners for more power :confused:

and m3 GT's they have single vanos and short runners with same intake and more hp
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 01:29:54 PM by m44power »

nuvolarossa

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« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2009, 04:28:39 PM »
modify the runner length is a way to change the power curve... longer runner usually means power/torque gains translated lower on rpm than before :)
 
now I don't know about those guys you mentioned but you don't specify where (at wich revs) they were searching for more power ;)
 
even the runner diameter/shape can have a huge role when searching for more power as the intake ports on the head... all need to be engineered as a whole system. A runner is not only a runner... it's diameter or it's optimal lenght depends from intake port size and from plenum shape and size. If then you change the plenum of if you heavily enlarge ports in the head maybe you'll need to change the runners... I had a lot of fun "playing" with pricey engine simulators of a friend's shop and there are a lot of variables in game.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 04:35:43 PM by nuvolarossa »

m44power

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« Reply #85 on: March 29, 2009, 01:29:09 PM »
Quote from: nuvolarossa;69088
modify the runner length is a way to change the power curve... longer runner usually means power/torque gains translated lower on rpm than before :)
 
now I don't know about those guys you mentioned but you don't specify where (at wich revs) they were searching for more power ;)
 
even the runner diameter/shape can have a huge role when searching for more power as the intake ports on the head... all need to be engineered as a whole system. A runner is not only a runner... it's diameter or it's optimal lenght depends from intake port size and from plenum shape and size. If then you change the plenum of if you heavily enlarge ports in the head maybe you'll need to change the runners... I had a lot of fun "playing" with pricey engine simulators of a friend's shop and there are a lot of variables in game.


thats general rule... :confused:

fiftytakedowns

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« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2009, 10:50:24 PM »
http://www.bmw2002faq.com/component/option,com_forum/Itemid,50/page,viewtopic/p,607332/#607332

Good source of ITB info... not sure if any could bolt onto the part of the plenum right after the injectors.

fiftytakedowns

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« Reply #87 on: September 06, 2009, 02:17:13 AM »
Do itbs increase torque at all, or mostly just sustain it?

steeldonkey

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« Reply #88 on: October 27, 2009, 05:49:17 PM »
Quote from: xwill112x;64175
the real queation is...


how much $$$ for the itb setup?


Its cost me about £130 to buy and fit my itb's and get them to a running model.

If your interested i have a thread on it here:
http://www.bmwowner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=165983

fiftytakedowns

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« Reply #89 on: October 27, 2009, 08:06:22 PM »
cant access the thread?