Author Topic: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling  (Read 5844 times)

selespeed

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e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« on: February 23, 2017, 12:02:47 AM »
hi;

I have a very strange problem.

my car jerks frequently when running because it is losing ignition (no sparks) momentarily but this jerking becomes more frequent when I continue running the engine. a few minutes later, the engine would lose ignition completely and stalls on the road. then, cranking it will not restart the car. there's firing up but only for like 2 seconds and dies.

in order to make it fire up and stay, I disconnected the airflow meter. but as soon as I reconnected the air flow meter, it dies.

what is happening? why is the engine losing ignition when air flow meter is connected and decided to stay ok without air flow meter? DE put out error code 100 (control systems error)

so, in order to continue my journey home, I ran without the air flow meter. and the maximum I can do is around 150 kmh. but engine seems to be able to accelerate quite well.

this jerking feel (losing ignition confirmed) is the problem that has plagued me for a very long time. when I have the new air flow meter installed, it only runs for a few minutes with very frequent "jerking" and then the engine loses ignition completely.

my engine is a e36m42 april 1994 with its associated DME. I have the following replaced (within last 6 months)...

ignition coil
ignition cable
fuel regulator
fuel filter
air filter

this s a BIG headache that remains unsolved for a long time. Appreciate all you experts out there for your help.

Thanks.

teo

colin86325

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2017, 10:26:09 AM »
Have you tried pulling the error codes?

DesktopDave

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2017, 11:01:33 AM »
I had a lot of trouble tracking down that 100 code. I'd guess it's a dying coil driver in the DME, or a bad DME output stage. The coils & coil driver transistors have a tendency to die in pairs - I'd replace the coil and DME at the same time to test for problems. I have two or three E30 M42 (175 DME) that all died that way. I might have an E36 unit sitting around...IIRC it's a silver-label EWS unit and would need to be properly aligned to your car.

I'm honestly puzzled that the AFM is making the car malfunction. I will say that a bad output stage on the DME will prevent the highly accurate output voltages that the system needs in order to run perfectly, especially the 5VDC supply to the AFM. This was the best advice I found, sorry it's not more helpful:

http://realitypod.com/2012/06/08/bmw-complete-diagnostic-fault-code-list-e36-e46-e90-and-more/
http://bmwpower-bg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=414240&sid=27fc4ee47fafdf03440d5ae8100b4de7
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selespeed

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2017, 09:24:24 PM »
I had a lot of trouble tracking down that 100 code. I'd guess it's a dying coil driver in the DME, or a bad DME output stage. The coils & coil driver transistors have a tendency to die in pairs - I'd replace the coil and DME at the same time to test for problems. I have two or three E30 M42 (175 DME) that all died that way. I might have an E36 unit sitting around...IIRC it's a silver-label EWS unit and would need to be properly aligned to your car.

I'm honestly puzzled that the AFM is making the car malfunction. I will say that a bad output stage on the DME will prevent the highly accurate output voltages that the system needs in order to run perfectly, especially the 5VDC supply to the AFM. This was the best advice I found, sorry it's not more helpful:

http://realitypod.com/2012/06/08/bmw-complete-diagnostic-fault-code-list-e36-e46-e90-and-more/
http://bmwpower-bg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=414240&sid=27fc4ee47fafdf03440d5ae8100b4de7

hi Dave;

thank you for your reply.

I had a NEW coil and coil cables replaced. immediately after erasing the code 100, it appears within seconds. Therefore, it is safe to say this ignition loss is not due to a bad coil or cables. this happened last year around august. as i continued t drive on the jerking becomes more frequent. and engine stalled numerous times while driving.

now the fault can now be isolated to that when AFM is connected. As you can see, without AFM, no problem. This brings me to think what was actually done in 2014. Other than fault code 100, the DME is also putting out error code 85/86 related to A/C. The mechanic did something to this in 2014 when i complained that when A/C is turned on, the engine idles too low and dies. and so he did something to it to make the engine stay.but it is causing the error code 85/86 to constantly turn on. since then, the engine has been exhibiting "jerking" but it doesn't die till lately when the jerking is more frequent.

the error 100 also says bad DME output stage. 100 Amplifier 1 in DME Control Unit --> just what is the bad output stage?


I had the DME relay replaced. same problem. you think it is the unstable 5V to DME?remember the symptom is NO ignition. something must be causing the DME to output no ignition. it is only with the AFM on.

now, that whenever the AFM is connected, engine dies. could it be because he did some quick fix shorting that resulted in this? Did he do something to the wiring? DME?

i want to restore to the original condition. but the mechanic (whichi did the a/c fix is in another town far away). what do you think the mechanic did to make engine idle ok but caused error code 85/86?

It is so dangerous to drive with AFM connected. I have been forced to step away from the stalled car on highways for fear of collision.

thanks again.

teo


selespeed

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2017, 09:25:37 PM »
Have you tried pulling the error codes?

error code says "control systems error" Bad DME output stage 1

don't know what it means

DesktopDave

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2017, 11:25:44 AM »
It's possible that your AFM is good and the DME output stage is dying. If the DME output stage is supplying improper voltage, critical sensors like the AFM, CTS and O2 will return inaccurate resistance to the DME logic and the fuel mixture could be wildly out of range. I'd be tempted to run the car with a wideband O2 or dyno instead of just guessing or blindly replacing parts.

Your info about the mechanic is a good clue. The A/C unit puts a drag on the motor that the DME compensates by raising the idle speed. Personally, on older cars, I'd just adjust the throttle body stop so it was slightly open at idle. But this version of DME will compensate for an air leak like that. So the easiest way to raise idle is to adjust the AFM clockspring tension. Is it possible that he took the AFM apart to "calibrate" it manually? I'd guess that he decreased the spring tension a notch or two to get the car to run a little richer. So your AFM might be sending a signal that's too high, running the motor too rich, and choking it out.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any pictures of a stock M42 AFM clock spring. I also don't have any stock AFMs that have been cut open to determine the stock setting. There are a bunch of YouTube videos like this one and this one that might be helpful, but YouTube is such a risky place. I'd strongly recommend marking the position of the clockspring & taking some pictures before making any changes. It's really easy to set those really wrong.

I'm also pretty sure that the Euro AFM is different than our NA unit, so my advice might not even work for you. In markets that didn't require catalysts, BMW kept the CO adjuster potentiometer. Our cars are all catalyzed, so the CO pot isn't installed. BMW made it easy: a single wire on the firewall harness must be connected to "enable" the older CO pot AFM. It must remain disconnected for the O2/catalyst DME versions.

Quick theoretical description:
I'm no expert, but if I understand the Bosch system correctly, the "output stage" is half of the DME. There are two parts to the DME - logic and output. The logic section has the CPU and chips; it's very low voltage and cannot handle much current. So the logic section "drives" the output section to directly control the motor components. So the output stage controls signals to the AFM, ICV, O2 sensor, coil drivers, etc.. Many of those components require a very clean & stable power supply. So the output stage also supplies a highly accurate 5VDC voltage and floating grounds to cut down on RF.

Older DME actually used two discrete boards, but the newer ones in our cars only have a single board. They're a little less reliable but much more efficient. Here's an older one from my collection:

Logic board is to the right, connected via ribbon cables to the output stage. You can see how much larger the components are on the right-hand output board. This is an M30B35 European DME (011).
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colin86325

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2017, 10:45:31 AM »
Sorry, I hadn't see the code listed in your original question.

I'd check the ECU.  It might be one of the output transistors for your coils.  Crack the device open and examine with strong magnification.  Keep us posted.

selespeed

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2017, 10:58:37 PM »
Sorry, I hadn't see the code listed in your original question.

I'd check the ECU.  It might be one of the output transistors for your coils.  Crack the device open and examine with strong magnification.  Keep us posted.

i'll open it to examine. but why is it that there is NO output error when it is not connected to AFM?

selespeed

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 02:45:43 AM »
Sorry, I hadn't see the code listed in your original question.

I'd check the ECU.  It might be one of the output transistors for your coils.  Crack the device open and examine with strong magnification.  Keep us posted.

i have swapped it with a known good one and it still exhibits the same problem - engine dies!

colin86325

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 10:30:54 AM »
What's the resistance of your crank sensor (preferably when the problem is occurring)?

selespeed

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 08:05:15 PM »
What's the resistance of your crank sensor (preferably when the problem is occurring)?

don't know.

i suspect it is voltage somewhere. when AFM is connected, it sputters and dies immediately. where does the DME or AFM obtain its grounding?

lately, my radio unit exhibits strange signs. it goes on and off but mostly no power.

colin86325

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 08:37:41 PM »
There's a large ground junction next to  the ECU on the E30.  It does sound like you have some electrical issues to sort out.

selespeed

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2017, 04:45:44 AM »
There's a large ground junction next to  the ECU on the E30.  It does sound like you have some electrical issues to sort out.

do you have a picture of that location? i may lay a ground cable to provide better grouding

colin86325

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2017, 10:53:50 AM »
As best I can recall, it's a bolt next to/near the ECU.  It will have a number of brown wires feeding into it.

DesktopDave

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Re: e30M42: engine jerks losing ignition resulting in stalling
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2017, 04:43:06 PM »
i suspect it is voltage somewhere. when AFM is connected, it sputters and dies immediately. where does the DME or AFM obtain its grounding?

lately, my radio unit exhibits strange signs. it goes on and off but mostly no power.

On my car the DME is grounded to the front battery tray. It is a bundle of brown wires but they're wrapped up in vinyl tube, come out of the cabin and over to the inner fender. The AFM has a floating ground directly to the DME, it's not grounded to the chassis at all. I'm told that the AFM has three connections to the DME: flow signal to pin 7, air temp signal to pin 44, floating ground to pin 26. I'd be interested in checking those AFM wires for internal shorts, chafing or some other damage to the harness. Here's a decent pinout, along with some troubleshooting info:
http://www.rtsauto.com/ecu-pinout-and-electrical-tests-e30/

I have a spare LHD E30 M42 harness if you're in need of one.

I'd also check your fuses carefully, including the fuse box itself. Sometimes an overload can melt the fuse box itself, causing intermittent power problems. On my LHD E30, stereo is listed on fuses 12, 21, 27 & 28. Stereo should be grounded under the dash near the pedals. The injection electronics involve fuses 9, 10, 11 & 21. The DME also has a large fusible link inside the small positive battery wire. It's part of the rear harness in the trunk.
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