Author Topic: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker  (Read 15030 times)

Darky

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2015, 04:22:16 AM »
I keep looking at your last couple of graphs and get an air density of 1.2. Hmmm

benz-tech

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2015, 02:37:58 PM »
Hey bmwman, how's your idle quality with those cams? Mine idles plain terribly now that the DME has adapted. It might have even developed a vacuum leak while fiddling with stuff. Your cams are hotter than mine so I was wondering how smooth yours is.
Pi is apparently the multiplier for your engine swap budget as well.

bmwman91

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2015, 12:14:14 AM »
The idle is fantastic. Smooth and steady. It sounds like you have a vacuum leak.

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
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Warsteiner

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2015, 05:23:57 PM »
My idle is spot on as well at 850-900rpm with no AFM 8)

Cheers,
~Ralph

benz-tech

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2015, 10:27:55 AM »
Good to know! I'll keep looking. Might need to degree that cam too
Pi is apparently the multiplier for your engine swap budget as well.

bmwman91

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2015, 02:07:37 AM »
So, I revisited the data that I took this summer and put together another plot. This time I displayed the air flow rates and AFR's from all 4 runs, with RPM as the X-axis. The most obvious thing is that the first run from each sensor is MUCH richer than the second run. Remember that I unplugged/reset the Motronic before swapping sensors, so it was re-learning all of the short- and long-term fuel trim settings. There was ~5 minutes of run-time after reconnecting the Motronic and doing the first pull, and then another 5 minutes after that until the second pull. Since the second pull is leaner, a big factor must be in allowing the Motronic to adjust based on run-time data from the O2 sensor.

OK. Here's the plan. I reinstalled the datalogger hardware this evening. I am to put at least 100 miles on this thing so that the Motronic will (hopefully) be fully adjusted, and then I will log some more 2nd gear pulls with the MAF (which is on there now). I will probably also log the idle and some part-throttle driving just for the sake of completeness. Thereafter, the VAM will get stuffed back in, the Motronic reset and after 100+ miles I will do the same measurements with it. Does anyone here know how many hours of operation it generally takes for the Motronic to establish its long-term fuel trim values?

Here is the plot of data that I mentioned at the start of this post.


The green and orange lines are the first runs after resetting the Motronic with the engine at full operating temperature (green is MAF, orange is VAM). Similarly, the blue and yellow lines are the second runs, at which point the Motornic has had 10-15 minutes of operation at full operating temperature (blue is MAF, yellow is VAM).

You will notice that the first runs are much richer than the second ones. My main interest here is the blue and yellow lines below 3500RPM. On these second runs, the MAF runs a lot leaner than the VAM (AFR of 15.0 vs 13.5). This corresponds exactly to the big "bump" in air flow signal coming from the VAM in that range. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but an AFR of 15.0 at WOT is not a recipe for power, and I think that this must be why I "feel the bog" in that range.

I have no reason to believe that the VAM+stock air box is magically flowing that much more air in that range, and as noted in a prior post, I think that it is a resonance effect interacting with the VAM's door which causes an artificially high output voltage from the VAM sensor, which just about any M42 tune will have factored in. Since the MAF accurately reports air flow here, it ends up passing through the tuning tables and leads to leaner running since the table tuned with the assumption that air flow is over-reported in this range. I do seem to recall hearing unverified information over the years that indicates that the Motronic runs off of the 2D maps below 4000RPM regardless of throttle position, which means that it is using the air flow voltage as a primary load signal, and then above 4000RPM if the throttle is open more than 80% it switches to 1D maps for faster response (in which case the air flow signal is largely ignored). From looking at how well the AFR's match above 4000RPM, this seems like it could be the case.

The initial implications here are that there may very well be no way that the M42 can ever have a "perfect" plug-and-play MAF conversion. You would either need a chip with a tune that is not based on a big bump in voltage from 2500-3500RPM, or you would need a MAF converter that taps into the crank position sensor and throttle potentiometer...in which case it really can't be called plug-and-play anymore since you are cutting wires. Maybe I could work an FFT algorithm in to the converter that basically allows the RPM to be read from the pulse frequency of the raw MAF signal, and then a correction curve is applied which mimics the VAM's goofy signal bump from 2500-3500RPM.

Phew. That is a lot of text. At this point, I know one thing for certain. It is time to find a tuner that can work with M1.7 and get a custom tune for this engine with the MAF installed.



For a little bit of extra fun, this link has a ~11,000 pixel wide plot. This one has the raw MAF output signal on it, and it is super duper wide which allows you to see how ugly the signal is. Every single intake valve opening is clearly visible! Remember, in this plot the horizontal axis is in milliseconds, not RPM.
http://www.e30tuner.com/assist/b21secondgear_superwideintakepulses.png

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

Darky

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2015, 03:53:47 PM »
Hi bmwman91

First a question, why continue with the maf conversion? Throttle response, tuning?

That peak at 3000 rpm is so lean for the maf, that would be caused from your inlet manifold and the engine getting more air that is not being pulled through the maf. Makes me wonder how the afm compensates for it. Or more correctly sees it at 3000 rpm.

Looks like the afm and maf run better just after they have been reset. Has me baffled with regards to what the maf is doing below 2500 rpm. What size is the maf?

Cheers Rohan

bmwman91

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2015, 12:09:43 AM »
The MAF OD is 75mm (exact fit into the M42 intake boot).

The issue, as far as I can tell, is that the stock AFM over-reports the air flow in the 2500-3500RPM range. The peak that you see there looks sort of characteristic of a Helmholtz resonance, and that is no surprise because the stock AFM has a big air chamber in it and moving parts. It is very repeatable and is seen every time in that range when the throttle is mostly open. I think that BMW knew this, and tuned the fuel maps accordingly. Basically, the DME is expecting air flow to be reported higher than it actually is in that range due to non-linear behavior of the sensor, and the map bins for that RPM at high load will be operating out of a higher load range than they should be. When the MAF is in there, it is correctly reporting the real air flow, but since the DME is "expecting" a higher load value (higher voltage), it is operating out of lower load bins and running lean. Hopefully that makes sense. In short, the stock sensor is inaccurate in that range in a predictable way, and the DME is tuned for that. The MAF is very accurate in that range, which is in conflict with the fact that the DME is not tuned for an accurate air flow signal in that range.

Why stick with the MAF? No reason, really. Throttle response improved a tiny bit, but it is still very limited by the old DME. A more modern ECU would give my MUCH better throttle response. At this point, it is just fun to have the MAF and M30 air box in there since they sound really cool (somewhere between stock and ITBs). I am making my plans for a switch to Megasquirt 3 Pro since the guys at diyautotune now have a breakout board with our 88 pin connector, so I do not need to chop up the stock harness at all. They even said that if I can get 10 people committed to buy, they will do a plug-n-play Megasquirt 3 Pro for the M42.

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

Darky

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2015, 12:25:49 AM »
Hi

Can you adjust output voltage on the maf conversion around 3000 rpm and trick the ecu? But to do that you would need a crank sensor as you previously mentioned. But you could possibly do something like that, by offsetting the voltage in that air flow range!

Cheers
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 12:30:25 AM by Darky »

Delta

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2015, 11:22:29 AM »
I like the progress with the maf conversion, and I cant wait to see if it ever gets anywhere. I know that Miller didnt want to touch anything for the M42 for whatever reason, and maybe this is part of it. I tuned my m42 via Tunerpro and an Ostrich with a wideband and made huge improvements over the chip that I purchased (the chip tune was terrible). I would love to play around with a conversion tune personally, Im wondering if changing the afm scale factors or some other maps may result in better AFRs...

I wonder if the afm chart is richer because of the acceleration enrichment. When the door opens quickly it adds fuel, so if there is no door to open will it still add fuel in the same manner? tuning around the enrichment was...interesting  ;)


On another note, a plug and play MS would be great! Id be interested depending on price and a timeline.

bmwman91

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2016, 11:14:46 PM »
Slight resurrection...

I did a little more data logging today now that I am 100% certain that the long term fuel trim (LTFT) is fully in place. Here is a comparison between 2 of the runs I did today, and a couple from a year ago shortly after I reset the ECU.



What's what?
MAF 1 and MAF 2 lines are from today's WOT pulls in 2nd gear, and I last reset the ECU ~4 months ago during an audio project.
MAF 3 is a 2nd gear WOT pull from about 5 minutes after resetting the ECU.
MAF 4 is a 2nd gear WOT pull from about 10 minutes after resetting the ECU.

So, I think that the AFR's look fairly good, except in the 2500 - 3500 RPM range. The LTFT leans things out even more in that range. I am amazed that I don't have issues with knock since the engine has 11.5:1 compression and we only get 91 octane around here. It must be somewhat of a testament to Metric Mechanic's head and piston developments.

Anyway, I am going to try to work with MarkD to get a customized map that enriches things in that range a little so that I don't get that dead spot in the powerband anymore. What are everyone's thoughts on the rest of the AFR's throughout the powerband?

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

Delta

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2016, 06:54:17 PM »
To me personally, I think the whole of MAF 1 & 2 look pretty lean. I have mine tuned down to between 12.5 and 13:1. That's where you're going to get best power and mean best torque. Are you a till running moronic or did you get your mega squirt up and running?

Also, just wondering what you're using to log your afr's. I would like to do the same for my current and stock tunes and share them here. I have a feeling it may be nice for some people to see them side by side. The stock tune is really pretty bad.

Darky

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2016, 06:32:57 AM »
Maf 3 looks the best but even that is not great, but my question is was the Ecu in open or closed circuit with the Ecu. Was the engine warm?

bmwman91

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2016, 09:36:50 PM »
To me personally, I think the whole of MAF 1 & 2 look pretty lean. I have mine tuned down to between 12.5 and 13:1. That's where you're going to get best power and mean best torque. Are you a till running moronic or did you get your mega squirt up and running?

Also, just wondering what you're using to log your afr's. I would like to do the same for my current and stock tunes and share them here. I have a feeling it may be nice for some people to see them side by side. The stock tune is really pretty bad.
I ran these by MarkD and he thought that MAF3 & MAF4 were too rich for this engine. Maf 1 & MAF 2 are definitely too lean though, at least in the one spot.

I am still running a Motronic with a custom tune from Metric Mechanic.

Maf 3 looks the best but even that is not great, but my question is was the Ecu in open or closed circuit with the Ecu. Was the engine warm?
The ECU is running in closed loop, but at WOT it ignores the O2 sensor.

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

Darky

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Re: Random Data Plots - M42 Engine Parameters Stock vs 2.1L Stroker
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2016, 02:53:58 AM »
Maf 3 looks the best but even that is not great, but my question is was the Ecu in open or closed circuit with the Ecu. Was the engine warm?
The ECU is running in closed loop, but at WOT it ignores the O2 sensor.
[/quote]

But not the afm at wot, or in this case the maf.
Can you trick the ecu using the maf conversion increasing the afm voltage over that rev range/air flow range for that peak at 2000-3000 rpm.

Cheers