Author Topic: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design  (Read 298542 times)

Warsteiner

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #255 on: December 15, 2015, 03:56:09 PM »
Hahahaha.....the math!! ::) It was just wrong from the start.

No wonder my M42 is making 500HP at the wheels 8)

wladas47.....it's about 1l/9.35km around town driving. and for the other folk it's 22MPG around town.

Cheers,
~Ralph

normboudreault

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #256 on: December 16, 2015, 10:18:26 AM »
Has anyone bought the kit??? I've just checked out the website - looks superb!

My m42 is being rebuilt at this very moment, this is tempting as hell!

Delta

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #257 on: December 16, 2015, 11:59:58 AM »
Kit looks great! would love to get one at some point in the future...

BaumGT

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #258 on: December 16, 2015, 02:49:52 PM »
I am hoping for someone to post some experiences with this kit on a bored and stroked M42. The size of the airbox and diameter of the runners could choke the engine at high rpm (8000) I guess.

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #259 on: December 16, 2015, 04:48:19 PM »
Has anyone bought the kit??? I've just checked out the website - looks superb!

My m42 is being rebuilt at this very moment, this is tempting as hell!

I don't know if its anyone off the forums, but he has sold some kits!

I am hoping for someone to post some experiences with this kit on a bored and stroked M42. The size of the airbox and diameter of the runners could choke the engine at high rpm (8000) I guess.

I know the thread is very long but I have covered those questions, but no - it will not choke out at higher RPM for several reasons:

  • The supplied airbox is twice the volume of mine
  • The diameter is large enough to support 2.5L
  • If you end up with choking from the ITB diameter, then your restriction would actually be the port area which is slightly smaller than the ITB area
  • If you open the ports, you can also open the RHD manifold, and buy 45mm ITBs (which will also fit)
  • You can run any length runners you want, you can buy them in 50mm increments, with 30mm trumpets - so if you really wanted to you could run the manifold +80mm. Though if you look back you will see there is no reason to do this.

The kit is modular, you can basically set it up how ever you want by just swapping out different parts.

Puksuttaja

I have had a look at the data from your dyno day, I've just been running around for Christmas! I will get to it!

« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 04:51:09 PM by lambertius »

ohne lader

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #260 on: December 17, 2015, 12:20:04 PM »
Does that sticker really adds 5 bhp? If yes, I need - let me count - approximately 20 of them.:)

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #261 on: December 17, 2015, 05:05:38 PM »
Does that sticker really adds 5 bhp? If yes, I need - let me count - approximately 20 of them.:)

It was my first mod - worth every penny!

Puksuttaja

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #262 on: December 18, 2015, 09:06:17 AM »
Has anyone bought the kit??? I've just checked out the website - looks superb!

My m42 is being rebuilt at this very moment, this is tempting as hell!

I don't know if its anyone off the forums, but he has sold some kits!

I am hoping for someone to post some experiences with this kit on a bored and stroked M42. The size of the airbox and diameter of the runners could choke the engine at high rpm (8000) I guess.

I know the thread is very long but I have covered those questions, but no - it will not choke out at higher RPM for several reasons:

  • The supplied airbox is twice the volume of mine
  • The diameter is large enough to support 2.5L
  • If you end up with choking from the ITB diameter, then your restriction would actually be the port area which is slightly smaller than the ITB area
  • If you open the ports, you can also open the RHD manifold, and buy 45mm ITBs (which will also fit)
  • You can run any length runners you want, you can buy them in 50mm increments, with 30mm trumpets - so if you really wanted to you could run the manifold +80mm. Though if you look back you will see there is no reason to do this.

The kit is modular, you can basically set it up how ever you want by just swapping out different parts.

Puksuttaja

I have had a look at the data from your dyno day, I've just been running around for Christmas! I will get to it!



I have an Excel file that the dyno made automatically which could possibly save you a lot of work. I can send it to you (translated to english) if you want to get a look at it. It lists all the power numbers every 5 rpm :D

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #263 on: December 18, 2015, 06:19:03 PM »
Has anyone bought the kit??? I've just checked out the website - looks superb!

My m42 is being rebuilt at this very moment, this is tempting as hell!

I don't know if its anyone off the forums, but he has sold some kits!

I am hoping for someone to post some experiences with this kit on a bored and stroked M42. The size of the airbox and diameter of the runners could choke the engine at high rpm (8000) I guess.

I know the thread is very long but I have covered those questions, but no - it will not choke out at higher RPM for several reasons:

  • The supplied airbox is twice the volume of mine
  • The diameter is large enough to support 2.5L
  • If you end up with choking from the ITB diameter, then your restriction would actually be the port area which is slightly smaller than the ITB area
  • If you open the ports, you can also open the RHD manifold, and buy 45mm ITBs (which will also fit)
  • You can run any length runners you want, you can buy them in 50mm increments, with 30mm trumpets - so if you really wanted to you could run the manifold +80mm. Though if you look back you will see there is no reason to do this.

The kit is modular, you can basically set it up how ever you want by just swapping out different parts.

Puksuttaja

I have had a look at the data from your dyno day, I've just been running around for Christmas! I will get to it!



I have an Excel file that the dyno made automatically which could possibly save you a lot of work. I can send it to you (translated to english) if you want to get a look at it. It lists all the power numbers every 5 rpm :D

I did it every 200 RPM, but having your actual output would be much better! Share it and when I get a chance I'll post it up alongside a few other results!

wladas47

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #264 on: December 19, 2015, 03:21:24 AM »
where you make a drawing or denounce lengths Intake?

Puksuttaja

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #265 on: December 19, 2015, 03:23:02 AM »
Here is the link to the Excel file! http://www.filedropper.com/bmwz319simotaexcel

I added some of my own comments in there aswell.

When I was Dynoing my Z3 I did some "mythbusting" too. I wanted to see if there would be any differences between a normal paper panel filter and a "high flow" Simota panel filter. The results were expected: Only 1 hp "gain" for the Simota filter that could totally go in the error range of the dyno measurement. So not really any surprises there.

sh123

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #266 on: December 23, 2015, 07:27:39 PM »
Quick question

What is the advantage of the airbox? Here in the uk in the rally scene i have never seen anyone run airboxes (but ive seen group a s14s and s42s running them) they always seem to run the long tube type air filter. These are cars running 300+bhp. Im just interested in how much gains there is.

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #267 on: December 24, 2015, 08:55:44 AM »
Quick question

What is the advantage of the airbox? Here in the uk in the rally scene i have never seen anyone run airboxes (but ive seen group a s14s and s42s running them) they always seem to run the long tube type air filter. These are cars running 300+bhp. Im just interested in how much gains there is.

Torque, glorious GLORIOUS TORQUE.

Below is a comparison of the change in torque only due to the change in volume of the pulse chamber (no other modifications) with negligible differences in power.



If they're not running an airbox, they're losing peak power and useful torque response.



lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #268 on: December 24, 2015, 09:39:48 AM »
So today I Dynoed my Z3 at my engineering school! The dyno that was used was MAHA 3000, the teacher said that it gives fairly conservative power figures and that the indicated power from the engine is much more accurate than the indicated wheel horsepower because of the way it measures it. This dynometer measures all the losses occuring between the engine and the wheels independently after the dyno pull (you put the clutch in and keep it in gear) you can see it as the green line in the picture. I also asked about the DMF thing and the teacher said it shouldn't effect drivetrain losses, it simply changes the place where torque will occur.

Sorry that all the text is in finnish, there is a translation at the end of the pictures :D I also have an Excel file already made if you want to plot a comparison from it Lambertius!
If I forgot to mention something, ask away!

The mods that I have on my M44 Z3 (156 000 kms driven):
Fogged airbox mod
Fulda Steel 4-1 style collector 2"
2,5" Custom made mid-section pipe
2,5"  Powersprint high flow catalysator
2,5" Simons catback exhaust

Exhaust manifold

Dynoresults
Translations:
Normaaliteho, Pnorm = The power from the engine that has been corrected with ETY-norms (so not the real one!)
Moottorin teho, Pmoott = The Engine power
Pyorateho Ppyora = The wheel horsepower (not to be blindly trusted according to the teacher)
Havioteho Phavio = The measured horsepower lost from the drivetrain, wheels etc.
Suurin teho = biggest power @ 6190/172 km/h
Vaantomomentti = The Torque (this is also corrected to the ETY-norms, so out calculating the norms the real torque is 189 Nm)
Suurin saavutettu RPM = The highest achieved RPM

There are a lot of interesting things to cover with your results, but before we get into that:

  • The DMF will affect drivetrain losses, not because it is a DMF just because it is massive. I only raised it to illustrate that the low wkW from our cars is likely a result of the drivetrain designed for much torquier 6cyl engines
  • According to your dyno results, the OEM drivetrain losses are ~25%. I'm going to work with that value in the future (until someone can demonstrate otherwise) simply because it is close to what we would expect.
  • Different brand dyno, different country. I'm going to be making illustrative assumptions. If anyone takes the following as being tacitly true, don't.

Below are the wheel results from Puksuttaja's excel file:



Its hard to know how accurate any dyno readout is compared to another - but let's just for the sake of interest assume that this is accurate within a reasonable error range (<+/-2.5%), it makes the results more interesting.

We know from my own testing that the muffler being changed resulted in a 6% improvement in peak power, so it would stand to reason that a whole exhaust system could result in more. Since Puksuttaja hasn't fiddled with his intake, it is possible that he wouldn't see the low-end losses that I did initially (till I reduced the pulse chamber volume).

So assuming that his engine was making 98kW~103kW (assumed losses over time of 5% and OEM rating), and the dyno he used is accurate - then the peak power improvement for Puksuttaja would be 9%~14%. Now this is based on assumptions, but they aren't unreasonable when considered alongside my own recordings.

Below is a comparison against the results of my own car. Unfortunately I can't really correct the results from the two dynos because we don't have an OEM recording to try and draw a comparison with. What we can do is look at the behaviour of the curves, which we can learn from.



Ignore the numbers - they mean nothing in this case.

Puksuttaja's curve is actually very similar to my OEM curve in shape - with the notable exception of the large torque spike in the middle. This spike is exactly what I would expect to see from a 4-1 header. You should be able to see the point with the ideal torque response, and that is exactly what you see. Then like my OEM run (and unlike my ITB run) the power and torque begin to drop then level (presumably from the DISA). The restricted volume of my pulse chamber combined with the long runners in my ITB setup create a very flat torque curve - a friend who has been minding my car actually commented how linear the engine response was when he had to drive it the other day, that you could easily run it to the red line without realising it because it never feels choked.

Unfortunately there are a lot of assumptions involved with all this, but it doesn't seem to be unreasonable to me to assume that Puksuttaja's exhaust setup could be worth 9~14% improvements over stock on its own, simply because I know the muffler on its own is worth 6%. This of course leads to the potential for extraction + induction improvements in the range of 25~30% in peak power. The only thing I would be cautious of is with enlarging the exhaust diameter and running a large volume pulse chamber that you may be optimising the entire system for a rev range in may not ever reach.  In Puksuttaja's case he still has the low volume of the OEM intake, which may compensate for lower end-losses from the enlarged exhaust diameter.

Regardless, I would really want to try a set of headers and a 2.5" exhaust with my induction kit - plus the lightened flywheel I'll be ordering soon! :D Should make a significant impact on drive train losses!

Puksuttaja

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #269 on: December 24, 2015, 02:38:18 PM »
Very interesting comparison. :) If I just had the money I would order those ITBs and a lightened flywheel instantly, but being a student, some money saving must be done first :l