Author Topic: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design  (Read 298521 times)

Puksuttaja

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #225 on: December 02, 2015, 07:50:27 AM »
Nice researching :) But I must say that I'm wondering (don't kill me now) how the Max power is only 86 kW? Assuming that power comes from the rear wheels, quickly calculated with 15% drivetrain losses: 86kW x1.15=98,9 kW (or 132 hp)  from the engine . I know that it might not be the most accurate calculation ever, but these engines (M42 & m42) are supposed to have 103 kW (140 hp) from the engine when new. What I'm saying is, it would be nice to know what was the power completely stock, and how many horsepower has been lost during the years and miles of use. (And yes I have read that the power increase is around 16% with these ITB:s)  :P

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #226 on: December 02, 2015, 05:17:00 PM »
Nice researching :) But I must say that I'm wondering (don't kill me now) how the Max power is only 86 kW? Assuming that power comes from the rear wheels, quickly calculated with 15% drivetrain losses: 86kW x1.15=98,9 kW (or 132 hp)  from the engine . I know that it might not be the most accurate calculation ever, but these engines (M42 & m42) are supposed to have 103 kW (140 hp) from the engine when new. What I'm saying is, it would be nice to know what was the power completely stock, and how many horsepower has been lost during the years and miles of use. (And yes I have read that the power increase is around 16% with these ITB:s)  :P

You're being a little too generous with the drivetrain losses - it is more realistic to expect 20~25% losses. The less powerful the engine, typically the greater percentage of performance is lost. Keep in mind I still have the OEM DMF. If you perform the original calculation with a 25% assumption it matches much closer to the OEM power rating. I actually expect very little power has been lost with this car, its had a very sheltered life!

colin86325

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #227 on: December 02, 2015, 06:52:59 PM »
I think Dyno Dynamics tends to be less "optimistic" than the more common Dynojet dynos.

Puksuttaja

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #228 on: December 03, 2015, 02:18:49 AM »
Let's hope the drivetrain losses are greater than the 15% I assumed :D Anyway I'm studying automotive engineering at the moment and we have a lecture and laboratory dynotesting at our school next thursday and I get to dynotest my own Z3 there! I will post the results here, and I could also ask the teacher what are the expected drivetrain losses with these kind of power figures and drivetrain!  :)

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #229 on: December 03, 2015, 05:59:08 AM »
Let's hope the drivetrain losses are greater than the 15% I assumed :D Anyway I'm studying automotive engineering at the moment and we have a lecture and laboratory dynotesting at our school next thursday and I get to dynotest my own Z3 there! I will post the results here, and I could also ask the teacher what are the expected drivetrain losses with these kind of power figures and drivetrain!  :)

That sounds pretty cool! I'm actually really keen to see it!

One of the other members here, MLM actually posted  his dyno results - which are very similar to mine. The interesting thing here though is that he has an extensive list of modifications, including a custom tune.

http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=18772.0

Now he is in a different country on a different dyno, however using this only as an indicative example you can actually see some characteristic differences between his setup and mine as well as it being interesting how similar our results are. He is using the Dbilas kit and a larger diameter exhaust with a larger airbox. His curve behaves exactly as I would expect, there appears to be less power down low, and less torque overall. Now that I'm so close to the end, I think I will send him a message to see how accurate the RPM readout is, and then plot his curve in excel against mine, it would be very interesting. Anyway, it would seem to indicate that there are probably about 25% drivetrain losses. Don't forget our gearbox was designed to cope with the much torquier 6cyl engines, so it is quite heavy.

If you can collect the RPM and road speed for your dyno test I'll plot your OEM against mine, as well as against my results. Again, it is only indicative but it will be interesting. It will make for a pretty chart!

Warsteiner

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #230 on: December 03, 2015, 08:18:12 AM »
colin86325 has a very valid point. All dynos are not the same and will read differently. The so called "standard",  could be the DynoJet dyno. It's very common. I have been on Mustang, DynoJet and Dyno Dynamics dynos and they are very different. You can actually alter your numbers by the way you tie the car down!! But then you're not real anymore so what's the point.

Some dynos have programs in them to mimic other dyno numbers. This is how the Dyno Dynamics does it.

Dyno Dynamics RWHP 86kw(115HP) /.84 = DynoJet RWHP 102kw(137HP) / .85 = Crank HP 120kw(161HP). So the ITB kit and tuning gets you 20w(27HP) at the crank. Sounds about right.

Here is how one company claims their upgrades
ITBs and tuning software 116kw(156HP) at the crank.
ITBs and tuning software with sport cams 126kw(169HP).
ITBs and tuning software with sport cams and headwork 134kw(180HP)
ITBs and tuning software with sport cams and headwork with Alpha-N 142kw(190HP)

So all of these mods have to work with each other. You don't just keep adding up the numbers as bolt ons. LOL
Do I think the numbers are a bit optimistic?... Maybe a little but they are close. So now add a little more for a stroker and you're over the 200HP mark.

Remember that using more duration cams and higher lift will gain you HP and shift the curve to the right in the RPM range. The torque however might suffer in the curve to the left in the RPM range and that is daily driving. Unless you have a lead foot all the time! 8)

Adding one more thing....Using the 45mm Dbilas set up for a stroker motor is probably a good thing combined with all the other goodies! However....lambertius' 42mm set up for more stockish applications I think is the way to go. Especially with those awesome plenums.

My stroker is 2045cc's with 10.9:1, headwork and exhaust with headers, Alpha-N and MAP, 250* cams with Dbilas 45mm's on Megasquirt II.

Dyno Dynamics 151/.84 = DynoJet 180/.85 =212HP at the crank. There is a lot of work into this motor to get to this point. Now that's using about a 18% drivetrain loss. I'm not sure a 25% loss at 225HP figure would actually be right. If it is then WoooHooo! Even at 212HP I have still crested that 100HP/L !!

So Yes ...the ITB's open up the motor and let it breathe. They give the car a great sound with the FG or Carbon fiber plenum! And also give it a bunch of HP to play around with. I would totally recommend that everyone get a set! LOL
I like lambertius' throttle cable design way more than the one I have and I would totally sport the Carbon Fiber plenum.

Great job on the whole project lambertius!! :D

Cheers,
~Ralph

Warsteiner

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #231 on: December 03, 2015, 08:29:34 AM »
One more thing.... Do you think there is any possibility of making the plenums attach back to the stock airbox?  As both bmwman91 and I have tested, the stock airbox flows plenty of air for 2.0/2.1L motors running with AFM or without, and would keep a stock look. It also keeps the incoming air cooler as well.

Just a thought...

Cheers,
~Ralph

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #232 on: December 03, 2015, 09:14:35 AM »
colin86325 has a very valid point. All dynos are not the same and will read differently. The so called "standard",  could be the DynoJet dyno. It's very common. I have been on Mustang, DynoJet and Dyno Dynamics dynos and they are very different. You can actually alter your numbers by the way you tie the car down!! But then you're not real anymore so what's the point.
 

This is exactly why I tested things the way I did. Even though every test hasn't been on the same dyno, every item tested has been on the same dyno for before and after results. Ultimately, I know what the improvements are as a relative percentage so it doesn't matter what the absolute number is.

The whole goal of this project was to track the progress in order to demonstrate the results.

I think another big thing to take from this is the benefits of optimisation. You can see that the correct choices can create very balanced performance results.

As for the magic 100bhp/l after doing all this I actually think it could be achieved without stroking the engine. I think port-matching the head with a properly tuned induction kit, the right headers, cams matched to the induction kit and a standalone ECU could see 100bhp/l (crank horsepower) in peak power. I also think you would be able to do it without making ridiculous trades in the lower RPM for more area up top. I think this is possible simply because I've seen how significant the differences can be through optimisation. I would really love to do this in the future.

Speaking of optimisation, I expect that if you dropped your ITB diameter to Rama's kit, with the longer runners and smaller volume you would probably gain more useable area under the curve than you would ever lose up top. Though I've done everything I can to make it 'street worthy' it definitely isn't even remotely close to choking. You would be able to run that diameter for ~550cc/cylinder before you really started to see issues. However, the kit is modular. What this means is that you could ask for Rama's 45mm ITBs with the manifold, then get it machined out to match. You can optimise the setup for your specific needs no matter what. You can adjust the intake length with 10mm spacers, use tapered spacers, change the length of the trumpets, change the volume and shape of the pulse chamber and change the ITB diameter and modify the RHD manifold to suit.

Great job on the whole project lambertius!! :D

Very much appreciated! I'm really looking forward to getting the video of the project up on youtube!

One more thing.... Do you think there is any possibility of making the plenums attach back to the stock airbox?

I actually wanted to keep my stock box, but I couldn't make it work with the prototype. I'll look into it a bit more when I get my car back. I suspect because I've lengthend the intake so much that I can't run the intake at a reasonable angle. I was thinking of placing the box, and then 3D printing a new top half so that it lines up with my new intake better!

MLM

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #233 on: December 03, 2015, 08:40:11 PM »
Let's hope the drivetrain losses are greater than the 15% I assumed :D Anyway I'm studying automotive engineering at the moment and we have a lecture and laboratory dynotesting at our school next thursday and I get to dynotest my own Z3 there! I will post the results here, and I could also ask the teacher what are the expected drivetrain losses with these kind of power figures and drivetrain!  :)

That sounds pretty cool! I'm actually really keen to see it!

One of the other members here, MLM actually posted  his dyno results - which are very similar to mine. The interesting thing here though is that he has an extensive list of modifications, including a custom tune.

http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=18772.0

Now he is in a different country on a different dyno, however using this only as an indicative example you can actually see some characteristic differences between his setup and mine as well as it being interesting how similar our results are. He is using the Dbilas kit and a larger diameter exhaust with a larger airbox. His curve behaves exactly as I would expect, there appears to be less power down low, and less torque overall. Now that I'm so close to the end, I think I will send him a message to see how accurate the RPM readout is, and then plot his curve in excel against mine, it would be very interesting. Anyway, it would seem to indicate that there are probably about 25% drivetrain losses. Don't forget our gearbox was designed to cope with the much torquier 6cyl engines, so it is quite heavy.

If you can collect the RPM and road speed for your dyno test I'll plot your OEM against mine, as well as against my results. Again, it is only indicative but it will be interesting. It will make for a pretty chart!

Hi Lambertius

I am more than happy for comparisons to be drawn and am interested also in dyno overlays also. Despite our approaches we have not ended up in too dis-similar places. Re rpm plot I have no reason to doubt their accuracy but cannot say how they were captured.

My modifications are:
- ITB with home made trumpets and airbox much like yours in terms of mod style though with different details.
- Aftermarket ECU for future flexibility - tuned for everyday 96ron with longevity in mind.
- 2.5 inch exhaust with 2 mufflers and a resonator, not straight through though less torturous than stock.
- equal length headers, again home made. A bitch on RHD cars BTW.
- That's it.

The engine is a M42 (not M44 designed for more torque) of 1992 vintage with 235,000km on it so far from fresh. Its has had 'good' use all its life.

Im an engineer but not automotive trained and have no automotive support other than the internet.

Ive been on two different dynos which both read similar 87.5Kw as per your link and an 89Kw elsewhere with no changes in between other than dyno.

I plan future expansion with cams, bore, compression hence my design choices as im not in a position to redesign/change decisions made today.

A good project you have undertaken - well done.
 

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #234 on: December 04, 2015, 03:53:00 AM »
Let's hope the drivetrain losses are greater than the 15% I assumed :D Anyway I'm studying automotive engineering at the moment and we have a lecture and laboratory dynotesting at our school next thursday and I get to dynotest my own Z3 there! I will post the results here, and I could also ask the teacher what are the expected drivetrain losses with these kind of power figures and drivetrain!  :)

That sounds pretty cool! I'm actually really keen to see it!

One of the other members here, MLM actually posted  his dyno results - which are very similar to mine. The interesting thing here though is that he has an extensive list of modifications, including a custom tune.

http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=18772.0

Now he is in a different country on a different dyno, however using this only as an indicative example you can actually see some characteristic differences between his setup and mine as well as it being interesting how similar our results are. He is using the Dbilas kit and a larger diameter exhaust with a larger airbox. His curve behaves exactly as I would expect, there appears to be less power down low, and less torque overall. Now that I'm so close to the end, I think I will send him a message to see how accurate the RPM readout is, and then plot his curve in excel against mine, it would be very interesting. Anyway, it would seem to indicate that there are probably about 25% drivetrain losses. Don't forget our gearbox was designed to cope with the much torquier 6cyl engines, so it is quite heavy.

If you can collect the RPM and road speed for your dyno test I'll plot your OEM against mine, as well as against my results. Again, it is only indicative but it will be interesting. It will make for a pretty chart!

Hi Lambertius

I am more than happy for comparisons to be drawn and am interested also in dyno overlays also. Despite our approaches we have not ended up in too dis-similar places. Re rpm plot I have no reason to doubt their accuracy but cannot say how they were captured.

My modifications are:
- ITB with home made trumpets and airbox much like yours in terms of mod style though with different details.
- Aftermarket ECU for future flexibility - tuned for everyday 96ron with longevity in mind.
- 2.5 inch exhaust with 2 mufflers and a resonator, not straight through though less torturous than stock.
- equal length headers, again home made. A bitch on RHD cars BTW.
- That's it.

The engine is a M42 (not M44 designed for more torque) of 1992 vintage with 235,000km on it so far from fresh. Its has had 'good' use all its life.

Im an engineer but not automotive trained and have no automotive support other than the internet.

Ive been on two different dynos which both read similar 87.5Kw as per your link and an 89Kw elsewhere with no changes in between other than dyno.

I plan future expansion with cams, bore, compression hence my design choices as im not in a position to redesign/change decisions made today.

A good project you have undertaken - well done.

Thanks man!

The only question I have with the RPM is that you seem to red-lining at ~6200, which seems a bit early - but close enough. If you think that is correct, I'll put it up against mine and we'll get to see some indicative differences!

Warsteiner

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #235 on: December 04, 2015, 06:06:15 PM »
OK....plot mine too please ;D

Cheers,
~Ralph

MLM

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #236 on: December 04, 2015, 06:37:24 PM »
I believe it does red line early as the power dropping. It was not worth working the engine at high rpm. As I mentioned longevity was a consideration.

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #237 on: December 05, 2015, 09:31:44 AM »
Alright boys, the results are in!

There are a few considerations while looking at these:

    • The results are taken in different countries at different times under different conditions
    • We're making a reasonable assumption on Dyno consistency based on brand (Dyno Dynamics)
    • I have modified some of the results under reasonable



    Keeping that in mind, we can get started!

    The first issue I had to overcome is to express my OEM reading as if it was measured on the last dyno that I used (Dyno Dynamics).

    I started by measuring the differences between the OEM manifold and the prototype:



    I then used that to calculate the percentage improvement from the OEM behaviour:



    I then had to remove the (as yet) unexplained kink in my results. I had to do this otherwise I couldn't use my percentages to extrapolate the results.



    After removing the kink in the curve, I was then able to extrapolate the OEM data to the Dyno Dynamics results. Using this I was able to plot the OEM results against the ITB (Prototype), Muffler, and 2.9L box:



    It becomes immediately obvious how much any small losses from restricting the plenum volume are worth the trade for the extra torque from ~2500RPM

    So how do I stack up against MLM and Warsteiner?

    Well since it is obvious how much Warsteiner is ahead of us, I'll post this one with just MLM and my results:



    The interesting thing is the weird thing is the extra power MLM seems to have in the sub 3000 RPM range. After that however you can see more expected results with my car having better mid-range performance, and slightly lower top-end. A couple of interesting things to note, is that I don't have a computer supporting my car yet, it is still OEM. I also haven't done anything to the exhaust other than the muffler - but I have achieved near identical results with less modification. This probably due to a combination of the M44 being a torquier engine, and the more effort put into optimising my design. An interesting observation to point out here, was that with the smaller volume, you can hear the induction note change in the very high RPM and the engine feels like it is beginning to choke right at the end, but the car felt like it didn't have enough RPM with the larger box. It would be interesting to see what I could hit with a proper tune. I also have the tapered runner to test, and running them with a slightly higher rpm and larger plenum volume could be substantial.

    I also want to remind anyway, that my drivetrain losses are very high as I still have the OEM DMF. Just remembered that, thought I would throw it in before I forget!

    Now, Warsteiner:



    Obviously his heavily modified engine demolishes our bolt-ons. It would be concerning if it didn't. It is still a bit unusual that MLM has that high torque spike at the very low RPM. At about 5750 RPM, Warsteiner has a jump in power - which I believe will be the resonant mode from the shorter Dbilas runners. I would be willing to bet that if you ran the 42mm ITBs with a 45mm tapered trumpet  that was a bit longer, you would see a jump in power around 5000 RPM and a higher peak power.

    If I had to draw any conclusions from all this - which is hard to do with any confidence since this is indicative at best - it would be that Rama's kit is very well optimised. It would appear to achieve significant results for less parts and effort than MLM's equivalent performance.

    I really want to get my car tuned now![/list]
    « Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 09:33:33 AM by lambertius »

    Darky

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    Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
    « Reply #238 on: December 05, 2015, 06:10:17 PM »
    Would it be correct to say that MLM has the advantage down low due his exhaust manifold? Which is an excellent piece of kit. You have a oem exhaust manifold and I'm not sure what Ralph is using. Possibly super sprint.

    All itbs
    Ralph 45mm
    Lambertious 42 mm
    MLM ?

    Nice comparison lambertius

    lambertius

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    Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
    « Reply #239 on: December 05, 2015, 07:03:06 PM »
    Would it be correct to say that MLM has the advantage down low due his exhaust manifold? Which is an excellent piece of kit. You have a oem exhaust manifold and I'm not sure what Ralph is using. Possibly super sprint.

    All itbs
    Ralph 45mm
    Lambertious 42 mm
    MLM ?

    Nice comparison lambertius

    I wouldn't think so. His diameter is too large, and the collector is a short distance from the ports for it to be contributing to lower down torque. I would be inclined to think that it's responsible for the top end performance. Just going off the shape of his torque curve I would be guessing that the headers are operating ideally at 5000RPM, and that the 3500RPM represents one end of their tuned behaviour and that 6250RPM represents the other.

    If you can give me the lengths and diameters MLM I can try and calculate it and see where they're supposed to perform 'academically speaking'.

    If I had to take a guess, it would probably be something to do with the timing and/or a secondary resonant mode with his intake (he is using Euro ITBs I believe).

    While I'm on the topic of anomalies, there are a few guesses for what causes the spike in my power:

    • Related to the engine timing, due to the expectation for the DISA to open which no longer exists.
    • It could be a secondary resonant mode - possibly a resonant mode with the pulse chamber or the pipe connected to the filter.
    • It may be a 'timing test' that the engine runs to check fuel RON. It advances the spark until detonation then adjusts its timing that way.
    • The stock map may just not be capable of handling the intake dynamics at that point for any or all of the reasons above.

    Its pretty reassuring though with the results from Rama's kit. It really shows that it is well matched to the engine and that there is still a lot of headroom to play with.

    Rama has actually started selling his own ECU with an adapter made for it so that no wire splicing needs to be done. Just plug and play swap into your car. I wouldn't mind doing that.

    $1500~$2000 AUD for new headers
    $1600 AUD for the ECU

    Unfortunately there is going to be a very very long wait till I have the same mods as MLM  :( It will be awesome to see what can be squeezed out though!

    Oh, but unless something changes, I will be getting one of his LTW flywheels! :D