Author Topic: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design  (Read 298571 times)

MrPhatBob

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2014, 03:31:30 PM »
I agree with you on that, I agree that the best results would almost certainly be seen by running an aftermarket ECU (probably in Alpha-n) with new injectors. One the other hand it also has to suit people who don't want to go the whole hog and are looking for a bolt-on modification for the car. The simplest setup is maintaining as much of the OEM setup as possible, and then from there developing more. We'll get it running as a basic kit first, and then move it forward if there is demand to do it. That's why I think a kickstarter would suit this.

If you're going to stick to a standard ECU it has to have an airbox that will work with a MAF, there no other way of metering the air, and it works well with the M3!

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2014, 01:45:06 AM »
The kit looks really nice!

Do the inlet runners have a nipple to run a vacuum line off of? I know I would want to do alpha-n in the low rev range blended with MAP compensation. Many people also just run a MAP based system off a vacuum log which seems to work OK too.

Just making sure you have thought about it!

All the air lines are being accounted for. There is a point on the bottom of the manifold for throttle bypass for the ICV, as well as hooking up the airlines to a common point. for vacuum assist.

Will there be enough space for the trumpet and air box on LHD cars?

Also worth mentioning, some rhd cars have the battery in the corner next to the fuse box. Not a biggie to move, there is a very simple neat mod for this, but limits space if left in position.

The dbilas air box is a poor design but had to fit within these constraints hence its shape. I have pics somewhere to show this if interested.

There should be, Rama has been taking that into account where he is, and has looked at the brake-booster and fuse box and whatever else is in the way. I can only look at the RHD stuff obviously, but it should be all worked out. It is making the airbox probably less than ideal, but its gotta fit!

thebrelon

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2014, 02:46:40 AM »
what's up?  ;D
Vince
'91 318is 230000km stock

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2014, 05:55:02 AM »
Hey guys, I've been mega super busy, but just to keep you informed, things are still progressing!

I believe there is a casting being made at the moment, but in the meant time, enjoy some transient analysis videos of airbox designs!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WbrzmInXX0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYytaUj-ihc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLPiHUe0wx0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqDgjP0j7w0

Still a lot to learn, but they are just a handful of ~ 50 different designs I did in an effort to try and equalise flow between the cylinders!

MrPhatBob

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2014, 08:01:31 AM »
Outstanding work as usual mate.

Looking at the spiralling around cylinder number 4... Do you see if there's a pressure drop in the port/trumpet area? Would vanes in the chamber or raising the floor help counter the spiralling?

wazzu70

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2014, 09:05:42 PM »
Very cool!
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2014, 03:55:07 AM »
    Outstanding work as usual mate.

    Looking at the spiralling around cylinder number 4... Do you see if there's a pressure drop in the port/trumpet area? Would vanes in the chamber or raising the floor help counter the spiralling?

    I learned a fair bit from this process, but there are also a bunch of limitations that I encountered, as well as a few things that relate to Rama's tried and tested experience.

    Without bludgeoning people with Excel spreadsheets - which is fun for no one - there are a few rules I learned from reading theory, Rama's experience and from the simulations:

    From Theory:

    • Until you hit ~ 10 000 RPM, airboxes almost certainly improve engine performance in all cases
    • Tapered designs always perform better
      • 40mm of clearance from the trumpet to the airbox results in relatively equal mass flow to each cylinder (usually less than 5% variance)

    In Rama's experience these points are all true, and since he is a racing engineer I will take it his word for it.

    From the simulations:

    • I learned that vorticity is the bane of flow rate. If significant vorticity forms around a particular cylinder its performance will drop catastrophically. This makes sense since the air will carry high kinetic energy to move 'out' rather than in (centripetal forces)
    • Baffled design massively outperform non baffled


    Now that said, Rama isn't keen to experiment with a baffled design and I can understand why. He is keen to use the 'best performing' non-baffled design, since it fits with his experience and the performance difference can be illustrated through the simulation. He is (understandably) concerned about any simplifications made in the simulations that don't reflect reality, as well as it being an extra cost for him to implement and then to test. He also pointed out, that it hadn't been done previously - however I believe that to be more related to the fact that high performance low RPM NA intake design were becoming redundant by the time advanced CFD was available at a price to be justified on anything other than F1. I believe that the model I made was sufficiently advanced enough to warrant physical investigation, but cost is always a prohibiting factor so I can't hold that against him. I might try and investigate it personally though.

    To illustrate some of what is going on, the below video is of a standard design Rama uses that sees good performance. I ran a simulation over 24 hours and generated ~500Gb of data for that 17s clip...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLPiHUe0wx0

    Basically, what you're seeing is that the air loses momentum (and thus reduced velocity) by the time it reaches cylinder 4 reducing its MAF rate by ~5% compared to cylinder 2. The curved end of the plenum actually generated a small vortice as well, which contributed to the loss.

    When you compared it to this video, which pulled in nearly ~10% more air overall:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WbrzmInXX0

    The differences are very pronounced. The first thing you should notice is there is a much higher average velocity in the chamber, and much less dead space. Almost the entire volume of the plenum is air in motion. Regarding the vortice at the end of the chamber, you will see a small baffle I placed to break it up - that on its own massively improved the airflow in every design to cylinder 4. However, one major issue is that this flies against the conventional wisdom that 40mm clearance is essential for equalised flow rates, which is why it I don't think it will get made.

    For the record the 'optimal' intake plenum without baffles uses a funky shape where the intake point follows a slightly curved path to aim between cylinders 3 and 4 while sitting a bit further away from cylinders 1 and 2. I didn't make an animation of it, but it looks very similar to the model with the baffles. It comes in at a funny angle, but I will have to dig around a bit to find where the model is. When I find it again I will post it up!

    I'm keen to make a full intake simulation, though I haven't yet put aside the time to do it!


    « Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 03:56:57 AM by lambertius »

    MrPhatBob

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    Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
    « Reply #67 on: November 16, 2014, 10:32:43 AM »
    I was talking about your flow models with a guy I know who does race heads, and the point he made was that normally the "trumpets in the box" design will have more flaws than if the bell mouths are on the floor of the air box.

    Is there a reason that you have the trumpets sitting so proud into the airbox?

    wazzu70

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    Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
    « Reply #68 on: November 16, 2014, 02:47:19 PM »
    The bellmouths pretty much have to be off the floor of the airbox to be effective. The air along the edges of the box are more stagnant and that is not where you want to pull air from for that reason. When the inlet is closer to the center of the box, you get the air thats moving and not "attached" to the walls.

    If you look at pretty much any performance OEM or race setup the bellmouth is close to the center of the box. The only reason not to is to reduce the cost of a casting or make the fabrication easier.

    One trick also is to use trumpets with a smooth large radius turn more toward the inlet on a side feed airbox.



    I used to work with crash simulation and fatigue analysis of vehicle structures. We would send the meshed/constrained models over to India to run on a supercomputer for days. If you get CFD/FEA results back quickly....its probably not a very realistic analysis :) I know what you mean about generating a ton of data for a short video clip!!

    FWIW, I think you are located in Aus? I had a major part in developing the cab structure for the new Kenworth Austraila cabs :)
    -Nick
    91 E30 M42 with VEMS

    Warsteiner

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    Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
    « Reply #69 on: November 17, 2014, 03:26:05 PM »

    For the record the 'optimal' intake plenum without baffles uses a funky shape where the intake point follows a slightly curved path to aim between cylinders 3 and 4 while sitting a bit further away from cylinders 1 and 2. I didn't make an animation of it, but it looks very similar to the model with the baffles. It comes in at a funny angle,

    Just wondering how "optimal" it is considering that the Dbilas airbox they use on their ITB kit is made in exactly that manner. It brings in air exactly between cylinders 3 & 4.

    Cheers,
    ~Ralph

    lambertius

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    Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
    « Reply #70 on: November 19, 2014, 12:13:36 AM »
    I was talking about your flow models with a guy I know who does race heads, and the point he made was that normally the "trumpets in the box" design will have more flaws than if the bell mouths are on the floor of the air box.

    Is there a reason that you have the trumpets sitting so proud into the airbox?

    The bellmouths pretty much have to be off the floor of the airbox to be effective. The air along the edges of the box are more stagnant and that is not where you want to pull air from for that reason. When the inlet is closer to the center of the box, you get the air thats moving and not "attached" to the walls.

    If you look at pretty much any performance OEM or race setup the bellmouth is close to the center of the box. The only reason not to is to reduce the cost of a casting or make the fabrication easier.

    One trick also is to use trumpets with a smooth large radius turn more toward the inlet on a side feed airbox.



    I used to work with crash simulation and fatigue analysis of vehicle structures. We would send the meshed/constrained models over to India to run on a supercomputer for days. If you get CFD/FEA results back quickly....its probably not a very realistic analysis :) I know what you mean about generating a ton of data for a short video clip!!

    FWIW, I think you are located in Aus? I had a major part in developing the cab structure for the new Kenworth Austraila cabs :)

    wazzu is on the money with this one. Every bit of theory that I read stated that you should have the trumpets centred in the box so that you don't lose flow due to transition layer effects. Further, in my own personal experience I've seen these effects when I was designing a wind tunnel, and it is part of the design rules with HVAC. It will depend on lots of different things, but very generally speaking, only 2/3rds of the cross-section of any 'duct' or 'tube' will be flowing without any boundary effects.

    To answer your question more directly, they were set at that height by Rama since the design is based on his 'proven' airbox that he uses. I didn't see a reason to change that particular aspect since it doesn't conflict with anything I've learned or found from the simulations.


    For the record the 'optimal' intake plenum without baffles uses a funky shape where the intake point follows a slightly curved path to aim between cylinders 3 and 4 while sitting a bit further away from cylinders 1 and 2. I didn't make an animation of it, but it looks very similar to the model with the baffles. It comes in at a funny angle,

    Just wondering how "optimal" it is considering that the Dbilas airbox they use on their ITB kit is made in exactly that manner. It brings in air exactly between cylinders 3 & 4.

    Cheers,
    ~Ralph

    It is actually a fair bit different from the Dbilas airbox, and there are a number of things going on. I'm actually making some more animations for you guys now so that I can show you some cool stuff later. Basically the difference is that the incoming air never needs to change direction to reach cylinder 1 and 2 but for now this is the only new one completed!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDHJF4_CFhA&feature=youtu.be

    This animation shows you the way the turbulence generates around cylinder 4, you can even see it going down the trumpet which makes it harder to start drawing air again. This isn't the most optimal airbox (without baffles that is), but you can effectively see that cylinders 123 with cylinder 4 are all fed relatively directly by the shape of the box, mainly being hampered by turbulence . In the Dbilas kit, the air needs to turn around to reach cylinder 123, and would heavily favour cylinder 4, as well as generating a lot more turbulence.

    If I'm honest, with the airbox I don't think the real world difference would be huge, but it is interesting to see the way a more 'direct' design operates. The exact airbox in that new link animation actually favours cylinder 3 because the angle of the incoming air ends directly at it, and then chokes cylinder 4 a bit with turbulence. Hopefully when I eventually get to animate the better box, you'll have a point of reference to see why it is better!


    Darky

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    Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
    « Reply #71 on: November 19, 2014, 01:10:46 AM »
    Hi lambertius
    Any reason why you haven't included trumpets in your simulations?

    Wazzu
    Theres a kenworth factory near me in kilsyth, Melbourne. I think they make cabs there is that where your referring too?

    Cheers Rohan

    lambertius

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    Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
    « Reply #72 on: November 19, 2014, 01:14:08 AM »
    Hi lambertius
    Any reason why you haven't included trumpets in your simulations?

    Wazzu
    Theres a kenworth factory near me in kilsyth, Melbourne. I think they make cabs there is that where your referring too?

    Cheers Rohan

    They're in the simulation, everything is transparent so you can actually see the flow lines!

    Darky

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    Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
    « Reply #73 on: November 19, 2014, 01:25:52 AM »
    Sorry my bad didn't see them on my phone!

    wazzu70

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    Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
    « Reply #74 on: November 19, 2014, 12:41:19 PM »
    Hi lambertius
    Any reason why you haven't included trumpets in your simulations?

    Wazzu
    Theres a kenworth factory near me in kilsyth, Melbourne. I think they make cabs there is that where your referring too?

    Cheers Rohan

    Yep, thats the Bayswater facility where the Australian Kenworths are made. It will probably be a few years until you see the new cabs on the road :)
    -Nick
    91 E30 M42 with VEMS