Author Topic: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design  (Read 298377 times)

colin86325

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2014, 06:28:56 AM »
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wazzu70

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2014, 11:48:10 AM »
Interesting results!

I looked at the atpower website www.atpowerthrottles.com and saw a lot of their kits put the throttles as close to the head as possible. Wonder if that works a lot better than putting the throttle on the end of a manifold?

Maybe worth looking into on CFD to see if this is a viable alternative. It would be much cheaper to just make an inlet flange and adapt individual throttles to it and make the inlet trumpets have the shape to clear the hood.

Just throwing another option out there. I love the ATPower stuff, but its $$$$!
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2014, 10:20:23 PM »
Interesting results!

I looked at the atpower website www.atpowerthrottles.com and saw a lot of their kits put the throttles as close to the head as possible. Wonder if that works a lot better than putting the throttle on the end of a manifold?

Maybe worth looking into on CFD to see if this is a viable alternative. It would be much cheaper to just make an inlet flange and adapt individual throttles to it and make the inlet trumpets have the shape to clear the hood.

Just throwing another option out there. I love the ATPower stuff, but its $$$$!

Whenever someone equips ITBs they always talk about how the throttle feel is "better". The reason people have this perception is because of a transient effect between opening the throttle and the air reaching the engine. The lower you are in the RPM the more obvious this effect is, which means that even if ITBs are poorly set up they can still improve the 'connectivity' a driver can experience. The major reason for this effect is the distance ITBs are placed from the ports - rather than actually being ITBs.

I'm going to use some exaggerated numbers to explain the effect just because it is easier to visualise.

Imagine a situation where you have a throttle 100m from a port, and another where you have the throttle 1m from the port. In both situations the throttle is closed, and then instantaneously opened. In both cases there is negative pressure on the engine side of the throttle which pulls air in at 100m/s. You can see that it would take a full second for the longer runner to reach the engine before providing power, whereas the the 1m port would take 10ms (actually in both cases it would take longer, but the actual effects aren't really worth discussing, I'm just making a point).

Now keeping in mind that there is a massive time difference before the power comes on; let us assume that the 100m throttle is actually better set up and creates more power and torque. You can see that even if an ITB is poorly set up in terms of power, it can have a very real effect on drive-ability. This is why even in poorly set up systems people will still talk about how much better the throttle feels. This 'feel' literally comes from the distance you place the throttle from the valve opening. It also has more of an effect at lower RPM because the intake velocity is lower and takes longer to traverse the distance. Closer may be better for feel, but there is more than one effect at play.

There are other considerations, such as injector placement, throttle by-pass and vacuum lines that need to be accommodated on the manifold. And then there is the fact that this is intended to be useful on road cars as well. In terms of flow, the longer the distance you have to transition from a circular butterfly to the port shape the more laminar the flow will be which will improve cylinder filling characteristics. The analysis I've shown only shows the butterfly at WOT, but if it is partially open there can be significant turbulence which reduce fuel vaporisation, so if you place very close to the oval port you will induce even more turbulence in the profile transition.  The manifold we're designing is to be part of a tuned-length intake as well, so the whole system should resonate with the RPM to assist in sucking in more air.

The 'ideal' ITB set up is very extensive. You would have dual stage injectors, with one on the port side of the butterfly, and one on the intake side. You can generate significantly more power by injecting fuel further from the port, but this only works at WOT and high RPM otherwise the fuel won't get carried all the way into the engine and you can get a flame-out into the engine bay. You would place your ITBs with about 100~150mm distance from the valve to allow a smooth laminar transition into the valve profile.

This smooth transition is very very important, and it should highlight why I'm not keen on products like the dbilas ITBs. In the simulations I just posted up, a change in curvature that changed dimensions only a few mm results in a 1% reduction in efficiency. If you look at dbilas their kit has a sharp kink with no curved transition, which would have a very significant effect (I'd be willing to wager 10% or more) on reducing mass flow. You encounter the same issues when using an adapter plate. You would need to make an adapter plate 25~50mm thick to get an appropriate transition to maintain laminar flow - which would end up having defeated the purpose of putting the ITBs close to the port in the first place. It would be different if the butterfly was the same shape as the port, but it is circular and you need to accommodate that change in profile.

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2014, 06:51:46 PM »
Just bumping the thread to let people know that it is still alive and things are still going on in the background! I also thought I would share something else I work on in my spare time with a friend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PG4aVv9Qcg

I know it is a bit off topic, but we're planning to do a video on the ITB kit when we're done so I thought I would show you our latest video!

MLM

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2014, 08:02:08 PM »
The Dbilas kit does leave a bit to be desired. The 'adaptor' does change angle quickly but does it over approx 60mm, the internal surfaces are ok but can use shaping, somthing i may look at later. The other aspect of the Dbilas kit which is less than ideal is the air box.

Do you intend to include an airbox in your kit?

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2014, 11:10:16 PM »
The Dbilas kit does leave a bit to be desired. The 'adaptor' does change angle quickly but does it over approx 60mm, the internal surfaces are ok but can use shaping, somthing i may look at later. The other aspect of the Dbilas kit which is less than ideal is the air box.

Do you intend to include an airbox in your kit?

Yes we do! And that airbox will be modelled up and simulated just like everything else to show you that it is worthwhile!

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2014, 08:02:56 PM »
I got an email from the engineer I'm working with yesterday that I thought I would share:

"I have progressed on and fitted fuel rail mounts and reworked the injectors to push them in a bit further, somehow we got the flange thickness a bit wrong too but all looking good now. I used the +5 model for now. Its basically ready to get a 3d print made!"

So we're 3D printing a test fit model soon, to make sure everything fits together so things are progressing!

wazzu70

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2014, 11:50:12 AM »
Thats awesome!
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

toby2can

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2014, 05:34:38 PM »
will this kit fit E30 m42 or just E36, i have an E30 IS, and have be researching ITB and its a mind field an would love a kit i can just bolt on.

anthonymax007

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2014, 11:05:37 PM »
I got an email from the engineer I'm working with yesterday that I thought I would share:

"I have progressed on and fitted fuel rail mounts and reworked the injectors to push them in a bit further, somehow we got the flange thickness a bit wrong too but all looking good now. I used the +5 model for now. Its basically ready to get a 3d print made!"

So we're 3D printing a test fit model soon, to make sure everything fits together so things are progressing!

Awesome!!! This is exciting!!!

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2014, 02:42:58 AM »
will this kit fit E30 m42 or just E36, i have an E30 IS, and have be researching ITB and its a mind field an would love a kit i can just bolt on.

The port profile for the M42 and M44 is the same, so there is no reason it shouldn't fit. Part of the reason this is getting done is that it will apply to a whole range of different cars!

toby2can

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2014, 03:46:18 AM »
will this kit fit E30 m42 or just E36, i have an E30 IS, and have be researching ITB and its a mind field an would love a kit i can just bolt on.

The port profile for the M42 and M44 is the same, so there is no reason it shouldn't fit. Part of the reason this is getting done is that it will apply to a whole range of different cars!

exciting news, i mite of missed it, will this be available in the uk?
at a rough guess when do you think it will be on sale?

lambertius

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2014, 08:33:58 AM »
will this kit fit E30 m42 or just E36, i have an E30 IS, and have be researching ITB and its a mind field an would love a kit i can just bolt on.

The port profile for the M42 and M44 is the same, so there is no reason it shouldn't fit. Part of the reason this is getting done is that it will apply to a whole range of different cars!

exciting news, i mite of missed it, will this be available in the uk?
at a rough guess when do you think it will be on sale?

I won't be involved with selling them, but the engineer who is working with me will. He will sell them through his company and will ship them globally. The good news for you is that because we're Australian, everything will in effect be half-price due to our exchange rate. The aussie dollar is about to tank as well (major economic shit is going down yo!) which sucks for us, but good for you. It will be about ~6 months away. If everything goes perfectly, sooner, if it doesn't, later.

Tgoode318

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2014, 09:25:23 AM »
This is awesome .  Any idea on price? Or still to far away to tell?
Keep us updated! 
-Tg
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 08:56:32 PM by Tgoode318 »
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bmwman91

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Re: M42/M44 ITB Kit Design
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2014, 12:57:12 AM »
Excellent project. When you have your final product ready, will you be publishing flow bench information and such? Dyno plots from M42's in various states of tune? Although I dropped $ on a fancy resonance-chamber M42 intake manifold when I had my 2.1L engine built, I have sort of been wanting to look into ITBs. My main concern was that they would hurt mid-range power, but it looks like you are addressing that! The engine pulls well from 2000RPM, and solidly from 3500-7700RPM as it is, and if these could open it up a little more in the top without hurting lower RPM torque (when I am in traffic) that would be excellent! And...the sound ITBs make is just the best thing ever.

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