Engine stops running on nice sunny days.

Author Topic: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.  (Read 8902 times)

JOregon64

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Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« on: July 02, 2014, 12:18:49 AM »
I have owned this 1991 318is for 3 years, mostly a driver for my two daughters. I have been replacing older parts (shocks, muffler, clutch, etc.) and working through issues that pop up to keep it running and driving well. I have a mystery to share and am hoping for an interpretation, incite, and guesses from the brains and the masses.
Most of the information about the bad happenings come from two teenage girls, thus you are reading this as interpreted to the best of my ability though I have had many years of practice in this art.  We live in suburbia and the car is not driven hard but just around from here to there as girls do. This car runs great except when driven in outside temperatures above 80 degrees. On these warmer days it will run as normal for perhaps 15 to 25 minutes and then the engine will stop with no warning.  The engine will most likely not start again until is “rests” for about 5 minutes.  Then it will run for a few minutes to hopefully get you closer to home until it stops again. The engine will stop as you are driving down the road and the driver will downshift to keep it turning until they choose to apply the clutch and coast to the side of the road for the “rest” time. There was also a time when the car ran fine but would not start after sitting warm for 3 minutes at a short stop. Today when the car stopped running I had my daughter perform a stomp test and an all clear 1444 code was blinked out to her.
I have read many posts trying to glean an answer. My brains lead me toward thinking the heat of the engine or in the engine compartment is causing a sensor or relay to stop functioning properly. Following this thought I have replaced the fuel pump relay, main relay, crank position sensor, and installed a cop kit to move away from 23 year old coils and wires.   
Okay that is what I know- give me what you've got.  ;)

colin86325

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2014, 06:54:52 AM »
Check the coolant temp sensor for the ECU when the problem occurs.  Also the intake air temp sensor in the AFM.

DesktopDave

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2014, 10:18:51 PM »
I'd start with a fuel pump pressure/flow test. Test the fuel pressure regulator as well. If the pump or FPR are slowly dying the car could behave as you describe. Some other BMWs had a service campaign to replace defective fuel check valves. The check valve is a part of the pump assembly, and it designed to keep pressure in the fuel lines. If the car cranks a lot on warm starts, it's a good place to look.

Given that this only happens with high ambient temperatures, definitely check the intake air temp sensor. The IAT is embeded in the air flow meter, pins 4&5 IIRC. You should see high resistance when the sensor is cold, and it should drop off as air temperature rises. IIRC the readings should be something like 3K ohms @ 30degF, down to maybe 500 ohms at 90degF. The IAT cannot be replaced easily - a good used AFM would be your best bet. The coolant temp sensor is tested the same way, but the readings should be far lower at operating temperature (180degF or so should test out like 200 ohms).

I'd check the DME for damaged coil drivers if the pump and IAT/CLT pass all tests. I've seen quite a few dying DMEs.

You've replaced all the other likely culprits!
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JOregon64

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2014, 11:41:38 PM »
Thank you for the reply's. I borrowed a good/used ECU from a mechanic friend. His experience has been that they get freaky with age and heat and worth a try. With 90+ degree days in the forecast we are jumping into testing mode.  I'll let you know if we pass or fail.  ::)

JOregon64

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2014, 02:45:59 PM »
Well the ECU swap was a FAIL  :o. Ran for 30 minutes around town on a 95 degree day and then stopped. Started after 5 minutes and moved a block, repeat and made it 2 blocks to home. She only posted a few Snapchats about it, traded cars with second daughter who drove the car four hours later in the evening with no problem. Time to see if my buddy has an AFM in his heap of a garage, check fuel pressure,  and check the coolant sensor. When I installed the new crank position sensor i drained, flushed the radiator, heater core, and block as possible, and filled with new coolant. This may be a clue to why it ran so long on a hot day, coolant sensor here i come!

DesktopDave

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2014, 03:14:20 PM »
Sorry to hear that the first test was a fail. Test the coolant sensor. Swap the main and fuel pump relays as well - those can fail as they heat up.

You could have a vac leak too - those can act up when the motor gets warm. I wouldn't think it be as abrupt as your symptoms are. That really sounds like a fueling issue.

How old is the O2 sensor and O2 heater relay?
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Sold: '97 Montrealblau 318iS, '91 Brilliantrot 318i, '91 Brilliantrot 318iS

JOregon64

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 09:40:33 AM »
I have already replaced the main and fuel pump relay.  I don't know the age of the O2 heater and O2 sensor relays, more than 3 years for sure. I am happy to replace them.
I have looked through the hoses that are easily visible, they all look to be newer or in very good condition, and nothing changes in the idle when I push them together or onto their connection.
I will check the coolant sensor later today when the car finds its way home.
Thank you very much for your input.

Tgoode318

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2014, 12:22:44 PM »
JOregon64 Sorry to hear you are having problems! just my 2c A really easy way to test for air leaks is to spray carb or brake cleaner around in the engine bay and listen for an increase in idle if you hear the revs pick up u have a Leak. Some other things to check is The Fuel Filter could be clogged or dirty and your fuel pump could be going bad/ Weak Psi. Sounds like dave is on the right track with it being a fueling issue GL!
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JOregon64

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 12:38:02 AM »
The car arrived home and within 5 minutes I checked the AFM with the engine warm/hot. The results were 390 Ohms which seems to land about right.
Tgoode I replaced the fuel filter in May when this mystery began. I will purchase some starting fluid and check the hoses for leaks.
Dave, the fuel check valve is part of the fuel pump assembly.  Is it purchased separately from the pump motor? I feel like driving the car for 20 minutes would not significantly affect the temperature in the gas tank. Before I go there and replace the pump, I think I will spend time with the fuel pressure regulator as it is in the engine compartment.
Can you also please point me to the coolant temperature sensor? I don’t think it is on the radiator as that is three wire and must control the aux fan.  Perhaps near the thermostat? I would go explore but the car just drove away.  :P
Thank you again for the input.

colin86325

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 07:28:17 AM »
The coolant temp sensor is the head, under the intake manifold.  There are two sensors there.  You want to measure the sensor that has two pins.  (The sensor with one pin is for the gauge in the instrument cluster.)
IIRC, you want the blue colored sensor.

See here:
http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=18012.msg124713#new

DesktopDave

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2014, 01:42:44 PM »

Dave, the fuel check valve is part of the fuel pump assembly.  Is it purchased separately from the pump motor? I feel like driving the car for 20 minutes would not significantly affect the temperature in the gas tank. Before I go there and replace the pump, I think I will spend time with the fuel pressure regulator as it is in the engine compartment.

The check valve is just a guess. The symptoms are difficulty restarting the car when it's warm. I'd suspect it would not shut the car down when the pump warms up. You're right - fuel wouldn't significantly increase temperature in a short period of time. Hot excess fuel is sent back to the tank from the fuel pressure regulator, however.

Like Colin says, the coolant temp sensor is on the head, near the front of the motor. There are two identical plugs there but only one will have two pins wired. Only one coolant temp sensor will have two pins. Be sure you put the correct plug on the correct sensors! Confusingly, the oil pressure switch uses the same connector as well. It's in the same area, on the side of the oil filter housing near the top. I have swapped those sensor plugs before, when I was doing the hose delete mod. The car ran normally, but the coolant gauge never moved and the oil light was on all the time, LOL.

Did you thoughogly check the hoses under the throttle body and the intake boot? Both are prone to cracking.

Are you sure the fuel filter is good, and installed in the correct orientation? Arrow on the casing should point in the direction of fuel flow, towards the engine. You could eliminate the filter as a culprit by connecting the two fuel lines together temporarily with a union (I wouldn't run it like that for long, and never with less than half a tank of fresh fuel).
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Sold: '97 Montrealblau 318iS, '91 Brilliantrot 318i, '91 Brilliantrot 318iS

JOregon64

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2014, 04:55:13 PM »
Hi,  Latest update: I purchased and installed a new coolant temperature sensor. The old temperature sensor ohm reading was .475 the new .560 at a slightly cooler temperature. Not much different so probably not to issue. I also installed a new fuel pressure regulator. The engine seems to be running better and smoother, with a touch more pep and also probably starting a little easier.  I expect this is from an increased and more consistent fuel pressure. The weather this week has been cool and wet so the true test will come this weekend when we march back to the 90's.

DesktopDave

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2014, 02:45:29 PM »
Hopefully that's all you'll need. Keep us posted!
'08 Karmesinrot 128i 6MT
'86 Zinnoberrot 635CSi (M30B32/G265/3.46 torsen LSD)

Sold: '97 Montrealblau 318iS, '91 Brilliantrot 318i, '91 Brilliantrot 318iS

JOregon64

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2014, 12:26:17 AM »
Fail is the word. :o
Daughter was driving home 5 days ago from work in 95 degree outside temp, 20 minutes into the drive she sat at a red light for 2 minutes, when light turned green the car stalled, started up and drove a block and stalled, and wouldn't start for 3-4 minutes, then started and she drove into a parking lot and called her favorite father. Since then the car has been driven a few times on short trips with no issues.
She did not have the AC on. I checked the auxiliary fan and it does turn on when the AC is turned on. In the latest instance i am thinking that the lack of air flow in a stationary car stopped at the signal caused the heat to build up in the engine compartment or somewhere and IT happened. The issue has not happened when on the freeway, only when in stop and go traffic or running around and making quick stops and then back on the road in the suburbs with signals and slower speeds. The car is not being driven hard and the temp gauge is sitting nicely in the middle.
What to do next? I will spray and check for hose leaks. Should I focus on AFM or fuel pump? Any other direction you can dream of to send me in? Thanks again  ;)

Tgoode318

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Re: Engine stops running on nice sunny days.
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2014, 12:35:27 PM »
It sounds like your fuel pump to me. Key wording here is when coming from a dead stop it stalls. This is because the process of acceleration creates an increased demand for fuel by the engine and your malfunctioning pump cant supply the correct pressure causing a stall. also you said if you let it rest it can hopefully get you back/start up again. This is because the correct range of pressure is restored enough while its "resting" to get the car going again. Since you replaced the Fuel pressure regulator and Fuel Filter im really betting on the pump now.

To check your pump The first thing to do is turn the car to the on position and listen.. You should be able to hear the pump turn on and it shouldn't have any crazy noises coming from it. Next after verifying the pump is on you need to do a pressure test and see how much psi you have. Here is a link for a good/cheap kit to preform one. 
http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html
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