Author Topic: Warsteiner, Wazzu70 and bmwman91 convince Norm he can build a smoking M42  (Read 26192 times)

Darky

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2014, 12:00:44 AM »
Bmwman91 I think is speek for everybody when I say that we would love to see some pictures of your mm engine.

I wonder whether you ever got itbs and the plenium going?

Honestly, there isn't much to show in pictures. On the outside, it looks like a normal M42 with an M44 oil filter housing, an adapter bracket to hold the crank position sensor and some capped-off tubes welded onto the stock intake manifold.

No ITBs or anything at the moment. Maybe someday, but it has a nice balanced powerband and I don't want to make it feel "peaky" which ITBs seem to do. Sorry to be anticlimactic, but the real wonders are inside, and I am not about to crack it open any time soon!

Fair enough!

normboudreault

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2014, 03:44:13 PM »
Well I finally heard back from MM - very nice people, but the cost, considering shipping, taxes, exchange rate was nearing 14 large. Might as well start looking for a good M3 if I spend that much on an engine....  :P

So, after considerable back and forthing with bmwman91 I've oddly decided to do the rebuild myself. Yup, you heard right. Im really looking forward to it as well. He kinda talked me into it so whatever happens we'll blame him alright?  ;D

He is a smart guy and being an absolute engine virgin I'll be picking lots of brains around here for info and ideas...  ;)

Got the next 10 days off work so should get some work done on the car.. posts to come... 8)

keflaman

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2014, 07:42:19 PM »
Well, all-righty then! Looking forward to this build! :)

Darky

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2014, 08:15:21 PM »
Well I finally heard back from MM - very nice people, but the cost, considering shipping, taxes, exchange rate was nearing 14 large. Might as well start looking for a good M3 if I spend that much on an engine....  :P

So, after considerable back and forthing with bmwman91 I've oddly decided to do the rebuild myself. Yup, you heard right. Im really looking forward to it as well. He kinda talked me into it so whatever happens we'll blame him alright?  ;D

He is a smart guy and being an absolute engine virgin I'll be picking lots of brains around here for info and ideas...  ;)

Got the next 10 days off work so should get some work done on the car.. posts to come... 8)

Gold!
Already blaming someone else!

bmwman91

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2014, 12:19:56 AM »
Well I finally heard back from MM - very nice people, but the cost, considering shipping, taxes, exchange rate was nearing 14 large. Might as well start looking for a good M3 if I spend that much on an engine....  :P

So, after considerable back and forthing with bmwman91 I've oddly decided to do the rebuild myself. Yup, you heard right. Im really looking forward to it as well. He kinda talked me into it so whatever happens we'll blame him alright?  ;D

He is a smart guy and being an absolute engine virgin I'll be picking lots of brains around here for info and ideas...  ;)

Got the next 10 days off work so should get some work done on the car.. posts to come... 8)

Gold!
Already blaming someone else!

Ha! It's OK, being married I am already used to being blamed for everything. So I just tune it out!

Should be a fun build. A lot of guys on here have built up hot M42's so there is plenty of knowledge to pull from. I can't claim to be an expert since I paid someone else to build mine, but I'll chip in what I can!

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

wazzu70

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2014, 03:03:32 PM »
There are some good builds going on in the Swaps, Turbos, Buildups section. Also mabeer's build a few posts down in this section.

If you ask a question, someone around here will know the answer and be willing to help :)
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

Warsteiner

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2014, 07:47:47 PM »
Of course I'll share what I know as well..... Just need an idea of what direction this build is going in, like minor or major?

Lots of math!! LOL

can't wait.......

Cheers,
~Ralph

normboudreault

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2014, 06:06:57 AM »
Thanks for the support guys!! It will make all the difference...

At the moment, Im not ready to tackle the engine, if you havent already, check out my build thread in the general topics section: 1991 318iS resto... Then, after you've thanked God YOUR car is not in 6 trillion pieces like mine is, you'll  understand why Im not quite ready for the engine. Having said that, I do plan on starting in the fall, so my information gathering is starting now...

Is it minor or major?

Could go either way.... ;D

Warsteiner

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2014, 07:14:56 AM »
Ok...My suggestion is to get started sooner than later. There are always delays in the machine shop. Trust me! If you have the space to keep your engine in and can start pulling it apart then I would do that. IF you're really not sure on how to take the engine apart, then either find a reputable shop near you or a fellow club member now! Planning takes a long time but finding good help takes longer.
For example....will you just buy cams or will you have them re-ground. Big price difference. If you want to save money and have re-grounds cut then you have to ship your cams to them, then they put you in the schedule to do the work, then they ship them back to you. That takes time. If I were you, I would start planning soon because building a stroker or whatever other than stock does take some time and thought.

We're here to help you for ideas. It'll kinda be like we're all building our motors again the way we "shoulda, coulda, woulda, but didn't!" LMAO

Let the building BEGIN!

Cheers,
~Ralph

normboudreault

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2014, 12:28:30 PM »
Thanks so much Ralph - that kinda encouragement is awesome!  ;D

I've got some great info from bmwman91 and I was thinking about a performance head: VAC motors has 3 and MM has theirs. If I went that route it would simplify things considerably build-wise and the cost is acceptable. As for the bottom, I really want some low-end torque and quick acceleration. Its all about how fast I can accelerate to the speed limit!!! So, stroker and light flywheel setup... Thats where it gets interesting... Also, I need headers and a whole new exhaust system. Not sure about the intake side of things yet. Advice and guidance needed all-around basically!!!

Im up in Canada and tuner shops are not exactly on every corner but there are some. I figure it will be the end of next summer before the car is ready to accept the engine and the tuning can begin - there's no rush for me as its a summer car only and I know she wont be ready for next summer (paint = $$)  :'(

As for the engine it now sits in my dads big double car garage, along with my e46, which has slept all winter... There's absolutely no space at my house for it but I may be buying my dads house very soon - gonna need that big garage for this rebuild!! Anyways if that happens, yes I will have space to work on the engine....

Thoughts??

Warsteiner

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2014, 09:45:44 PM »
Ok... you need to contact either Barrie at Midnight Tuning or Mark D and talk to them about what you're doing and see if they will help you with a tune. They are both in Canada! Maybe they can help point you in the direction of a good machine shop? See who they use for their clients.

You can port your own head and let the machine shop do the rest with your valves and guides, skimming the head while checking for cracks, decking your block with front timing case cover and boring your block. You tell them: Take this piston and make it fit in this hole! Hahaha

That's where all your math comes in. New pistons? S50 86mm? S52 86.4mm? S54 87mm? GSR rods? M47 crank? M44 HG 1.74mm or 2.04mm? With AFM and stock throttle body I wouldn't get crazy with cams. Custom 250/250 with a stroker should be great for everyday driving with grunt down low. I have ITB's and decided to stay torquey for street use.

Inj's? This is a fun topic even without a stroker motor! LMAO  I have 24#'s and the car is over-fueled so no issues there. The E30M3 2.3L ran with 22.5# inj's for 192HP, upgrades to 238HP was still safe.  The S50/52 inj upgrade is the 24# and it makes 300HP safely. So my point is the 24# inj's are plenty for a M42 stroker. Hmmm...4 hole disc or ? Not going there! Hahaha.

Keep your 4.10 diff! More highway driving then maybe 3.91. M20 lightened FW from 19lbs to 11-12lbs with M42 ring gear is perfect and easy with a stock 325 clutch set up.

The stock header may just be good enough. Don't be so hasty to get rid of that until you do some research. You may need to increase the center section to a 2.5" and free flow muffler but the stock headers flow pretty well. My E30M3 headers flowed perfect at 238HP and stock was 192HP. So a 46HP increase on stock headers with no issues. The M3 Headers I run now are stock EvoIII and making 320+HP. Not even Gruppe N or DTM headers or anything special. Close to a 100HP gain and all is good. Changing headers may cause you to lose a lot of torque and possible HP!

Isn't this fun?!!

Bmwman91 has some great info on a possible max output for the AFM before you run into a breathing issue on the M42. Maybe he'll chime in for you. But if you go standalone.......well then the sky's the limit for torque and breathing and HP and FUN!

YOU have some research to do......get started!

Next we can talk about single or double row timing chain.............

Cheers,
~Ralph
PS Not saying what I woulda, coulda, shoulda done! LOL
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 10:48:37 PM by Warsteiner »

normboudreault

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2014, 11:07:36 AM »
Holy Sh*T!!!

Man I've got some work and reading ahead of me!!!  ;D

I've looked up midnight tuning - facebook website.. I will contact them when I have an idea which direction to go, they seem to be in Ottawa, only 1.5hrs away... You've dealt with them? Maybe I can get my e46 tuned first.... ::)

As for the head - wouldn't all that work cost close to what a performance head would cost? Or would the performance head make me lose torque down low? Is that why you don't think its a good idea? I could go either way - just curious as to your opinion on that..

As for boring the block - seems like an absolute necessity.

Pistons? New of course. Con rods, lighter and stronger is better. Is there a "kit" that comes with pistons and a recommended crank? You know, the KISS principle is how I've stayed alive this long...  :P

Crank - M47 vs M44, what are the pros and cons of each? The M47 is way more involved isn't it?

Cams: Custom 250/250, this would have to be fine-tuned to what I decide upon for the bottom end right? Man, I have a feeling that's a dumb question...  :-[

Diff: Mine is a 3.73 LSD, not a 4.10. Will be having it rebuilt. Is that a good match with a stroker?

Intake: Its all Chinese to me right now.... :o

And yes this is fun!!

 ;)


« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:17:54 AM by normboudreault »

wazzu70

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2014, 05:01:27 PM »
Where are you at in Canada? If you are closer to Toronto I know some BMW people there who could recommend good machine shops and tuning solutions.

I know Astro is a popular machine shop in Toronto if that works for you.

It all depends on your goals and budget which is the best route to take. I find taking a budget minded approach and just doing it right puts plenty of smiles on your face.

A stroker based on M44 is a good budget option and is much cheaper than the M47 based stroker. Personally I would spend the majority on tuning and a nice set of cams.
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

normboudreault

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2014, 05:56:02 PM »
Thats great info - thanks! I was curious about the m44 vs.m47 crank...

Im in Montreal. About 6hrs to Toronto.   :(

Budget-wise what do you reckon this will cost with what you've read?
I figure on 5-6000$.  But as long as my wife doesnt know, I can go a little higher...  :P

Warsteiner

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Re: Metric Mechanic M42
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2014, 07:09:13 AM »
Barrie is a list member here and yes I have had correspondence with him in the past on tuning. I believe he is in Ottawa? That's even closer to you...just a hop, skip and a jump! LOL

Check out Mark D'Sylva too...he's in Toronto and is a list member as well.
 http://www3.sympatico.ca/mdsylva/

When I mentioned doing your own head that was to save you money. The performance head is not a problem with a stroker.  Even on a stock motor it's ok as long as you don't port it too heavily because then you'll lose the low end. Here's the secret.....shhh...The power is in the head!

I don't know of any kit out there for the M42 stroker motor.

I'm sure the M44 crank is probably way cheaper to get your hands on, but I'm not sure what is involved in making it work. The M47 crank is minimal work: cut the snout down to fit the crank gear, new crank bolt and spacer plus adding a second keyway. Pretty straight forward, just added labor. The difference is the stroke which I think is 83.5mm for the M44 and 88mm for the M47. You can also lighten the crank by having the counterweights cut, well.....that's what I did since the M47 is a few lbs heavier than the stock crank.

If you're getting bored just stop me....

No question is ever dumb if you can learn something from it ;D The cams are really up to you.  In my opinion if it's a street motor I wouldn't go too radical because you want your power band to be spread out over the rev range. Big cams can make big power for the dyno sheet but it will be in the upper end of the rev range and minimal down low which is great for the track but "eh" for the street. The smaller but still aggressive cams can make great power but usually over the entire rev range. There is more to a cam then just duration. You also have to think about lift. The Schrick 256* set up is based for the stock motor. I'm sure it wakes that motor up quite well. I never had the chance to just do cams and see what it was like. I chose the 250/250 on the recommendation of a tuner that designed those cams for my stroker with 10.8 compression. Not over the top but more aggressive than the Schricks and great for all around street driving and power up to 7,500 rpm. But some little birdie told me that I could probably get 8,000 rpm out of my motor. 
Just an aside.... all cams are different in feel. I had a set of 284/276 Schricks for my E30M3. The power was great, it pulled hard, and you knew definitively when the cams kicked in. It was like having an on/off switch. My description of that would be "raw power" which was intense but great. I switched to a Dbilas 296 with the Schrick 284 and what a difference! The power was more linear and you couldn't feel the "on/off" cam feeling. Then I went to 302/296 and it's the same linear feeling. Very deceiving! LOL.  I only give these examples because I've learned a lot over the years with trial and error and what better way than with the S14 8)  So....driving with my M42 stroker now and not even completely tuned, I have that same feeling of "sneaky" linear power. It's definitely very deceiving until you look at the speedometer. LOL Personally, for an every day driver, it's the way to go for me.

The diff....I know some on here run the 3.73 on a stock motor. Great for highway MPG, less revs on the motor but the acceleration takes a lil bit more umpf to get going. If you were to find a close ratio transmission, then that would probably be an intense ride but the better option at that point might be a 3.46  I personally have the MM trans with an E30M3 4.10 and hitting 60+mph in second is not a problem. It's really your choice again of how you'll be driving the car. Some also run the 4.27 with lots of grunt down low but your top end cruising might be like a '73 2002 M10 motor with a 4 speed and 3.45 diff wishing you had the 5 speed conversion...Hahaha  The diff really depends on your motor build and your transmission. It's the easiest to swap and see what you really like according to your driving habits.

Bored yet?......

Intake....Well......we all know what everyone wants with this topic! You can pretty much take any ITB set up and retro fit it on the car if you have time and money. My next motor will either have 45mm slide throttles or S54 ITB's on it. If MM can get 205HP out of the stock TB then....who knows what ITB's will do on a stroker. I know that Dbilas claims 19-20HP for their ITB's and tuning. I'm sure that's pretty accurate once you start adjusting fuel and timing. But that doesn't mean take all claimed HP gains from all your bolt ons and that's your new HP number...NOT! Chipping the car alone can net you 12-15HP on a stock motor. You need to really talk with Mark or Barrie and have a game plan because they will give you real world numbers.

Spend as much as you can but save a bunch for tuning since that is going to make the whole difference. There is nothing like having expert tuners like Mark or Barrie getting you as much power as possible and safely. Another aside....my tuner for my S14 found an additional 8HP at the wheels by adjusting the angle of my throttle plates! How cool is that.....

Having fun yet?! :o

Cheers,
~Ralph
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 07:14:10 AM by Warsteiner »