Author Topic: anyone running a adjustable FPR?  (Read 5651 times)

Eurofreak13

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anyone running a adjustable FPR?
« on: September 10, 2012, 12:13:20 PM »
Id like to install one on my m42 but I'm curious what I need to do to the original fuel rail. Is there an adapter to insert into the OEM fpr to then remotely "plug in" my FPR or do I need to source a custom rail?

Help a brotha out!!

bmwman91

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anyone running a adjustable FPR?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 02:34:22 PM »
First off, what is the reason for using one? Do you have a forced induction engine?

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Eurofreak13

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anyone running a adjustable FPR?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 07:58:46 PM »
Currently no, in the process of adapting my s50 itb's & was thinking an adjustable fpr would help for tuning (when it comes to that). I've got a spare m42 that's gonna get the turbo (& the itb's)

I checked out your link & was interested in your upgraded fuel pump since that'll be the next item to address.

So back to my point, are you running an adjustable fpr or is swapping a larger OEM (bmw, Audi/VW...etc) easier?

bmwman91

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anyone running a adjustable FPR?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 12:41:13 PM »
Well, on an NA motor, I don't think that there is any value to an adjustable FPR, even with ITBs and such. I have a ~205bhp M42, normally aspirated, that runs just fine with the stock fuel pressure regulator & rail. I did put in a higher capacity pump a few years ago, but only because it was about 1/3 the cost of the stock one, and mine had finally died. This engine does use higher flow rate injectors (24# vs 19#), but it also has a custom chip that was tuned specifically for everything. The engine builder said that the stock injectors can actually handle 205bhp, but barely.

You could try to "fudge" a tune with an adjustable FPR, but if you are putting ITBs on, the ONLY way to get it running well is to tune the ECU. Either spend some time on a dyno, or install a stand-alone ECU like the Megasquirt and tune it that way. I would be willing to bet that you would make less power than stock overall if you stuck ITBs on & raised the fuel pressure while leaving the stock ECU/chip in there. The O2 sensor would read the changes in the mixture, confuse the ECU and give you a check engine light under part-throttle, and full throtle where it ignores the O2 sensor you would probably run too rich.

Try putting the ITBs on there and leave the fuel system alone for the moment. It might run OK with a stock chip.

Also, ITBs and FI are not an ideal setup. ITBs really only give big benefits on NA motors. With FI, they matter a whole lot less for making power, although you still get an improvement in throttle response.

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Eurofreak13

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anyone running a adjustable FPR?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 02:16:58 PM »
Ok so what I'm getting is your running a stock fpr on your NA motor with 24# injectors without any issues (with the custom chip). What fuel pump did you go with, how much was it & were there any issues with the install?

I never intended on running the itb's on the stock tune, your correct that would be a complete waste of time. Tho if I were running the itb's, with a stand alone system (which was the plan from the start), I'm assuming ill need to use a wide band O2 sensor, an adjustable fpr would prove to be beneficial on the dyno for its tuning session.

So is anyone running one?
If so are you using the stock rail with an adapter? Custom rail?...

bmwman91

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anyone running a adjustable FPR?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 04:07:37 PM »
Correct, NA engine with 24# injectors and a custom tune. Really, the custom tune part is where it is all at.

I am running a TRE Performance 255LPH pump. Again, I only switched to it because it is $70, rather than $150-300 for a stock Bosch one. Lots of guys have run turbo setups with the stock pump. This is the one I went with though. Unless yours is dying, I don't see any benefit from a higher capacity one unless you are going to run over 15PSI of boost.
http://treperformance.com/i-6323866-bmw-318-255-lph-fuel-pump-1990-1999.html
It is not a 100% straight-forward swap as you do need to Dremel the bracket a little. See this thread in r3v, and just ignore the parts about the 2nd pump since we only have one.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?p=1968663

A wide-band O2 sensor is really only necessary if you plan to do your own tuning. Otherwise, dyno shops stuff one up the tailpipe and tune with that.

A number of M20 guys have done turbo setups over the years they have an adjustable FPR in there to "fudge" things rather than tune the ECU. It works, but not as well as a proper tune. You'll end up getting lousy mileage and have poor control over the air/fuel mixture. As far as adapting an adjustable one, someone else will need to chime in as I am not sure how they mate to the rail. It seems unlikely that they will fit where the small stock one is.

Just FYI the stock one is a rising-rate regulator, meaning that it will keep the fuel pressure at 43PSI regardless of the pump pushing it or the manifold pressure. That is much more critical than messing with the system pressure. A much better bet for you is to determine how much more air you will be flowing and then put in injectors of a larger size according to that ratio. Raising the fuel pressure puts more stress on the rest of the system needlessly and is basically the "wrong" way to go about getting more fuel in.

For example, if you are going to run 7PSI...

14.7PSI is atmospheric pressure, and the manifold pressure is about this when at full throttle. With 7PSI of boost, you will have 21.7PSI in the manifold, which is 47.6% higher, and roughly means 47.6% more air flowing into the engine. The stock injectors are 19# units, and 47.6% more than 19 is 28#. So, at full throttle and full boost, stuffing in 28# injectors should get your AFR right where it needs to be with the stock ECU, in theory anyway. In reality, you will run rich as hell all the rest of the time, fouling plugs, ruining your catalytic converter, fouling the O2 sensor and probably having a check engine light. Your idle will also be crap, and it will generally run poorly.

I don't mean to rain on your parade or lecture you, but your #1 priority should be selecting a shop with a dyno to make you a custom chip. Give them your intended boost level and the size of the stock injectors and they can probably recommend new injectors. From there, it's just a matter of making everything fit and then getting the car to the shop for tuning. Thereafter, it will run great, idle great and be a hell of a lot faster.

Trust me, I have been where you are at a couple of times in the 12 years that I have owned and modded M42's. Dyno tuning is $$$, probably almost as much as the turbo parts, and it always seems tempting to try to find cheap ways around it. In the end though, you will end up with a turbo car that doesn't run nearly as well as it could without taking care of the ECU. Old carbureted cars with distributors were "easier" to do this with since there was really very little you could do to optimize the entire map, and everyone just generally accepted the fact that "more power = crappy idle & driveability." With a more modern car with an M42, the fully electronic injection & ignition system means that you can go worlds beyond the old ones if you spend the time and money on a tune, and get a car that runs great around town and also hauls ass when you want it to!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 04:12:54 PM by bmwman91 »

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wazzu70

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anyone running a adjustable FPR?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 06:10:55 PM »
If you use a standalone, there is no real use for an AFPR. You choose the injector size you need to cover max fuel needs and adjust the VE table to get the proper AFR all over the rev/load range. The AFPR lets you tune WOT fuel, at the expense of everything else.

FWIW 034motorsports had some adaptor pieces to go in place of the factory FPR to a remote mount AFPR. Some VW/Audi use the same FPR as us.
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

bme30

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anyone running a adjustable FPR?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 11:39:06 AM »
Your biggest issue with the itbs will be adjusting ignition timming not so much fuel..

wazzu70

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anyone running a adjustable FPR?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 02:58:30 PM »
Quote from: bme30;115859
Your biggest issue with the itbs will be adjusting ignition timming not so much fuel..


Exactly. People focus on fueling in my experience because its easier to grasp and monitor. Its much easier to target a lambda value than find MBT.
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

bme30

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anyone running a adjustable FPR?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 09:55:41 AM »
Quote from: bme30;115859
Your biggest issue with the itbs will be adjusting ignition timming not so much fuel..

I take that back...
Last night i had my gsx-r itb set up on the dyno last night... We could not get the stock injectors to pump more fuel at wot in the upper hp range..

Lucky for me my mechanic had spare s52 injectors 21.5lbs
We put those in and had to dial back the fuel... We started to run safe afr and started to make gains... 25whp from baseline itb setup.  We did a little timming but, session was cut short bc my fuel light came on and i had baby classes to go to.  

There is still room for fine tuning the tq and hp curve and maybe a few more hp.

I have a massive tq dip from 3-4k rpm and a slight hp dip in the same range...  Ill work on that on oct 6th.