MAF Converter V3 Update!

Author Topic: MAF Converter V3 Update!  (Read 12992 times)

bmwman91

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« on: November 30, 2006, 12:20:34 AM »
Alrighty, I managed to get the car to run well enough for testing finally...there are gremlins in my fuel injection system.

So, it worked.  The old problem of engine-cut if floored between 2400RPM and 3000RPM is gone....but replaced lol.  Now if you floor it between 1250 and 1750RPM it will die out.  I will sick the O-Scope on the output tomorrow and see if it is some weird resonance thing.  I AM running a big-ass ricer filter just for testing right now rather than the air box, so maybe that changed the fundamental resonant frequency in the intake that I suspect is causing this.  I will test with the air box again and see if the dead spot moves again.  A big huge velocity stack might be needed, but cross your fingers I just need to remap the converter a little.  The idle was fluctuating oddly as well, like consistently between 600 & 900RPM.  Perhaps I need to do some work on the low-flow portion of the map.

Results:
- The thing is LOUD with the rice filter. :(
- Throttle response is improved...whee!
- Not going to try to comment about power yet, I am running on little sleep and am still pissed that the car was barely running at all yesterday...and no obvious problems were found after an intake manifold tear-down.
- In the 15 minutes I drove it, it did not misfire once, so maybe the problem (see above) was a dead AFM.

Once I get this thing flawless, no dead spots regardless of where you floor it, I will book some dyno time to get AFM and MAF runs in.  I am just glad this damn thing works!  Therafter, the PCB order goes out and I make the first sellable test-units!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 12:23:29 AM by bmwman91 »

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AL GReeNeRy

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2006, 01:03:18 AM »
im glad to see progress is bein made.  got a question tho. are you running the maf setup wit the maf directly connected to the cone? if so, try running a little piece of tubing between the maf and the cone to help smooth out the turbulence.  i noticed many turbo apps have some of tubing in these spots on their intakes..
1991 318is : brilliantrot

bmwman91

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2006, 01:09:38 AM »
Yeah I was gonna make a velocity stack of sorts...but it is late and cold so I just slapped the filter on.  I HOPE it will go away with the air box on it tomorrow...the problems I had before may have been from the V2 circuit going on the fritz!

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
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nickmpower

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2006, 01:18:13 AM »
are u watching the afrs???

bmwman91

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2006, 10:31:23 AM »
I will be tonight along with the MAF output waveform.  I got it all together at like 10:30 last night and just wanted to see if it would run.  I am thinking I may need to remap the lowest 10% of the converter settings...the idle was a tad funny as well.

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318-is

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2006, 10:52:03 AM »
What MAF are you using?

obv im interested in it once you get it sorted but if i need to acquire a mustang filter etc then obv im screwed cos we dont have them over here (We have to many corners for them)

asubimmer

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2006, 10:58:43 AM »
glad to hear you are running better :)
 
your products are awsome, keep it up!!
///Alpinweiß II 24v 91\' 318is, 2004 Yamaha R6 SE for sale, 00\' VW GTi, 83\' El Camino BURNED, 2001 P71sold, 92\' Miatasold
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bmwman91

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2006, 12:58:52 PM »
I am presently using a MAF from a MK4 Jetta.  It can be fitted to the air box, but I need to test that setup for bugs.

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Ramblin MAn

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« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2006, 09:31:16 PM »
I don't know if this will have any bearing, but I have heard that the farther away from the throttle you can get your MAF the better off you are. Something about intake tract pulses causing fluctuations in the wire temp which may be causing the "noise" you are seeing. I have a mile of intake tubing retween the maf and the throttle plate on my SAAB turbo by design.

bmwman91

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2006, 09:37:58 PM »
Yeah, I can definitely see this being a turbulence issue, possibly due to an acoustic node existing near the heated element.  It has a rear cover on it, I would imagine to prevent backflow, but who it to say.

Anyway, I am going to go install it on the air box and test it out.  Brb in like 30 minutes hopefully.

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bmwman91

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2006, 10:18:10 PM »
OK....

Oddly, I got a Throttle Potentiometer CEL code...it would come on after idling for maybe 20 seconds.

With the air box on the MAF it still had the odd idle fluctuation, which may possibly be related to the TPS error, or mis-mapping of the converter.

The dead spot in the RPM field is now in 2 small chunks lol.  There is a dead spot where, if you floor the car basically off-idle it will die, the again from like 2400 to 2600RPM.  Very odd.  I will see about O-Scoping the output and whatnot.  I will try resetting the Motonic...I kinda adjusted the TPS contact brushes and did not reset the Motronic which supposedly self-learns the TPS positions.  Grrr, what is the deal with this thing?!

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bmwman91

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2006, 12:15:58 AM »
Alright, scoping it seems to have offered some clues.  It is a storage scope so I could have captured the waveform, but it is chilly in the garage and just wanted to get a look with my father.

So, what I saw has made me draw the following conclusion.  Basically, the MAF and converter are too damn fast and "sensitive!"  They are so fast that they seem to be resolving individual intake pulses!  I have no idea what speed the Motronic samples air flow voltage at, but I would guess that it is slower than the converter and might is probably taking them at pulse peaks and troughs, confusing the hell out of it.  For those that know what "beats" are, the kind produced by the mixing of two or more periodic waveforms, you get the idea.  This could explain the fluctuating idle...the Motronic's sampling rate at these lower engine speeds is very close to the intake pulse rate where the MAF is most prone to the induction pulses.  Since it is definitely less than twice the intake pulse frequency it will have aliasing problems and resolve the wrong overall waveform (read about Nyquist frequency/sampling).  Anyway I am getting waaaay off on a tangent.

Basically, this is a problem only with larger throttle openings as there is essentially very little damping of these pulses.  With the throttle closed all the air is sucked through the ICV which can easily act as a damper.  Even with small openings the pulses might not be getting through the cracked throttle opening without being damped out a just enough.  Open them a large amount and the pulses have very little interference...and run right out to the MAF.  The MAF is fast enough to resolve these.

As for the issue at the higher engine speed, this could just be due to it being a secondary or tertiary harmonic of the original problem.  The cutout seems to happen around 1200RPM.  The next one looks to be around 2400RPM...a factor of 2, conveniently.  Why not at 3600RPM?  Perhaps enough turbulence is generated in the induction system so as to damp this nonsense out.

This pressure pulse-measurement system is interesting.  With the AFM, it was definitely well-damped...the flapper would not be disturbed by the individual pulses due to its relatively huge mass in comparison to the moving air's momentum, and being on a spring with friction in the moving parts.  The MAF is essentially a very very underdamped system...it has no restrictions on response time other than the internal electronics and the speed of the passing air.  This means I need to implement some form of damping, either in software or hardware in the converter.  This means more delay (lol, like it is even noticeable by a human driver).  Now, it does not matter a damn that the converter response time is presently about 970 micro-seconds...the Motronic is pobably slower since it has SO much more to do.  The clock on the converter is 4x faster than the Motronic, and there is 99% less code to execute in the converter...so I think it reasonable to assume the Motronic samplng rate is a lot slower.  The converter can sample at 4x the maximum intake pulse rate at 7200RPM, so aliasing anywhere in there is no problem.

I COULD look into using an RC or RLC filter to help with this, but I would prefer not to.  Software is free lol, and a lot more predictable.  If I were to do this in software, I would play it safe and set the averaging time to be able to deal with a 600RPM WOT condition, it would leave a 50ms delay.  I do not like that, although as far as throttle response goes it would not be very noticeable...it just pisses me off that I know I could have the system run with a delay of 150 microseconds if I wanted lol.

LOL and I always hoped I could find an application for that Systems & Control class I took.  I guess I did!  Sorry about the world's longest post.  This is how I like to stew the old brain juices...thinking "out loud."  More to come.  At least I now know the issue is not in the calibrations!  I need to research signal filtering a little more!
« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 12:23:22 AM by bmwman91 »

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Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

AL GReeNeRy

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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2006, 05:53:06 AM »
i wish i knew what you meant.. all i understood from that is that the maf can read signals faster than the motronic can decipher...

hopefully, you can make this work with a cone filter too.  although some may not like it because it can be too loud and ricey and may not do anything as far as gains, i believe its a more fun experience to have.
1991 318is : brilliantrot

bmwman91

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MAF Converter V3 Update!
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2006, 01:07:00 PM »
The noise is actually kinda fun lol.  I guess the only good way to run the cone would be with a heat shield...and I am definitely not going to look into manufacturing those.  Hand-building them would be a pain, and would hurt the cost considerably.  Don't worry though, I will test it with the airbox and without.

Yeah I got waaaay off onto some half-baked technical tangent there.  I was up late, and have been getting ~5-6 hours of sleep per night.  Unfortunately, my body likes 8 hours, so this leaves me in odd mental shape.

Anyway, I love learning.  I also love sharing things.  I was playing around in Excel with the various waveforms, and decided to export it to a PDF with notes to help folks understand what is going on.  Hopefully you will find this informative!

Adobe PDF, ~500kB
http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/aliasing.pdf

Might be typos in there.  I checked, but who knows what I missed in my half-asleep stupor!

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Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

Damoj

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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2006, 04:03:48 PM »
So if the problem is that the ECU isn't sampling as fast as the MAF, could we just overclock the ECU?  (mostly kidding)