Author Topic: New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders  (Read 10640 times)

carnurd

  • Guest
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2012, 05:08:19 PM »
Quote from: bmwman91;115283
OK, so MM got the engine and pulled it apart. The problem was a broken valve spring! They are doing some aggressive failure analysis and working with the spring manufacturer to understand why and how it happened. It's a shock to them and they want to have a 110% understanding of this since they use thousands of these springs across almost all of their 4 and 6 cylinder engines.

So as of now, it looks like neither they nor I are to blame. Neither of us made any mistakes as far as we are aware, and it may well be one of those statistical realities of life that I got the one-in-a-million bad valve spring.


I'm using non-beehived dual high tension springs, with steel hardened retainers with SS 6mm +1 valves.  Lots of track days and not a single issue so far.  However I know this is an issue which is completely random and does actually happen.  

You would be surprised my dad's old stingray had a rebuild and soon after he lost a valve spring.  Same issue just a random freak occurrence break..

bmwman91

  • Administrator
  • Legendary
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 33
  • Posts: 2798
    • View Profile
    • http://www.e30tuner.com/
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2013, 05:41:41 PM »
OK, so update time.

I believe that another spring has gone bad. I was driving home from the store on Saturday and the car suddenly began exhibiting the exact same symptoms as when the first valve spring died. I have not done any investigation yet, and won't be able to until I get back from a business trip in a couple of weeks. So far though, it would seem to be a repeat failure.

This morning I spent some time on the phone with Jim at MM. I will be shipping them my head for a full repair (crossing my fingers that there is no piston or cylinder damage). As of now, they say that they are dropping Ferrea as a supplier because it would seem that there are some serious QC issues. Lightning striking twice is enough evidence for them to figure that it is best to go back to the proven dual-spring setup that they have used on race engines for decades. I have their assurance that they will be tossing out all of the beehive springs that are in the head now and replacing them with the same dual-spring setup that they have used without issues for 35 years (can't remember the supplier).

So, as of now I need to pray that the damage is only to the spring and valve. If I have something that looks like this guy's problem, I am going to be very sad.
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3010518&page=2

I am also looking for another car as of now. This E30 is not doing it for me anymore. A used Civic or Accord is what I am after, hopefully under $10k. I just want to put the key in and go without having to think...I have spent way too many years driving a car and just wondering every moment if it is going to strand me!

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

colin86325

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 15
  • Posts: 764
    • View Profile
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2013, 07:22:01 AM »
Jeeze man.  I wonder if Ferrea has been outsourcing to China?

Anyway, best of luck with getting this resolved!

wazzu70

  • Nasty Nick
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 18
  • Posts: 671
    • View Profile
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2013, 12:30:11 PM »
Wow thats crappy about the springs! Good to know for future reference though.


I have a 2004 325i sport w/manual. Its been a fantastic daily driver and does not cause me issues.
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

bmwman91

  • Administrator
  • Legendary
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 33
  • Posts: 2798
    • View Profile
    • http://www.e30tuner.com/
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2013, 11:14:41 PM »
So, this will be my first "head job". Getting it off is easy. As for putting it back on, what are things to watch out for? Does the M42 use dry head gaskets, or do I want to use sealer (maybe I should ask MM what they recommend)? I assume that the torque procedure in the Chilton's guide is correct, too.

There is also some confusion about which injectors I am running (sort of a LOL situation at this point). MM ordered the injectors that go with this engine and chip and had them sent to me months and months ago. The second time I was putting the engine back together, I noticed that one was a single-pintle type, and the other three were 4-pintle types. All were red-topped and had "24" inscribed on them. Well, I noticed that I had been getting crappy gas mileage, and that it smelled really rich at idle. I asked MM about it and their tuner's response was, "that's impossible!" (regarding the injectors I described). So, it sounds like I have been running the wrong injectors lol! Being that they said that the stock 19# ones were juuuuust adequate for the engine, I would figure that ~22# ones would be the right size. I guess too big is better than too small in this case (running rich won't melt pistons). Considering how well it ran with the wrong injectors, I REALLY want to see how it does with the right ones!

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

bmwman91

  • Administrator
  • Legendary
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 33
  • Posts: 2798
    • View Profile
    • http://www.e30tuner.com/
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2013, 11:14:42 PM »
So, this will be my first "head job". Getting it off is easy. As for putting it back on, what are things to watch out for? Does the M42 use dry head gaskets, or do I want to use sealer (maybe I should ask MM what they recommend)? I assume that the torque procedure in the Chilton's guide is correct, too.

There is also some confusion about which injectors I am running (sort of a LOL situation at this point). MM ordered the injectors that go with this engine and chip and had them sent to me months and months ago. The second time I was putting the engine back together, I noticed that one was a single-pintle type, and the other three were 4-pintle types. All were red-topped and had "24" inscribed on them. Well, I noticed that I had been getting crappy gas mileage, and that it smelled really rich at idle. I asked MM about it and their tuner's response was, "that's impossible!" (regarding the injectors I described). So, it sounds like I have been running the wrong injectors lol! Being that they said that the stock 19# ones were juuuuust adequate for the engine, I would figure that ~22# ones would be the right size. I guess too big is better than too small in this case (running rich won't melt pistons). Considering how well it ran with the wrong injectors, I REALLY want to see how it does with the right ones!

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

Geoff

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 317
    • View Profile
this is totally weird now...
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2013, 06:22:03 AM »
I can only think that the fabled MM company is experiencing some life altering changes,  maybe their suppliers, management, build crew,  whatever,  something has changed.   How can such a well regarded company have so many screw-ups on one motor,  and a dam expensive one at that?   They screwed up not just your motor, but your attitude, and your love for the e-30 as well.    I dont know what to say, brother, except that I feel bad..
                                                                                Geoff:(

Warsteiner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 21
  • Posts: 576
    • View Profile
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2013, 08:06:20 AM »
Sorry to hear that you're having all these issues! Running a larger injector is not a bad thing other than that they should all be of the same said type, make sure that they all actually flow nearly the same, and that the tuning is exactly meant for those injectors. Running too rich will wash down your cylinders and decrease your octane and cause havoc for your tune. I'll be running 24lb inj's in my set up as well. Your spring condition could be as simple as some sort of harmonics in the motor that they're not agreeing with.

One thing that you have to remember is that this is not a proven said up yet!! Yes there are 2.1L motors running around here and there BUT they are all different!! There is nothing standard about any 2.1L that I have ever read about, whether it be piston choice, inj's, to AFM or not to AFM is the question, cams, exhaust, to port the head or not, etc... etc...  YOU can't expect a set of inj's and chip sent to you to be perfect for YOUR motor, UNLESS the motor was installed in a car and tuned. Then that would be your tune and your tune only. Anytime you change one parameter of the motor, it should be retuned. I'm not saying that it won't run, it just isn't optimal for that motor anymore.

When chips and/or inj. set ups are sold off the shelf they go off of a standard baseline. Usually a stock motor, or X cam on the intake an Y cam on the exhaust or what have you, OR even an upgraded this or that can be the norm but it's still off of a baseline engine. These set ups are usually in a car and tuned specifically for those upgrades within a safety range so that they can be mass produced. Let's think about that for a moment......How many 2.1L or stroked M42's are REALLY out there? Do you think that any of them are the same? I highly doubt it. I know that mine is like no other out there.

You've taken such great care of your car from add ons to changes to maintaining it for daily use for how long??? Given that you just made a major change that is not proven yet should not discourage you. You are one of the pioneers as to how and how not to do these builds. Yes it sucks because it takes time away from you and your car and puts undue stress in your life, BUT we all know that there is still lots of love in that car that YOU put into it! Don't let a measly spring get your blood pressure out of sorts. Go sit in the drivers seat and just imagine what could be......

MY suggestion is......get your head fixed and prepped with whatever spring set YOU feel comfortable with. Whether you go back to the dual set up or whatever. Put the head back on. Find a GENUINE tuner near you, or take a road trip on a trailer and have your car tuned properly. You will then have piece of mind and also your most awesomest, funnest, rad M42 daily driver back and will forget what it took to get you there.

Good Luck with whatever you decide.....

Cheers,
~Ralph

nickmpower

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 890
    • View Profile
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2013, 09:42:18 AM »
Guess the 36# i have in my engine are probably a little over sized...but 25mpg average

nickmpower

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 890
    • View Profile
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2013, 09:43:19 AM »
Quote from: Warsteiner;119324


You've taken such great care of your car from add ons to changes to maintaining it for daily use for how long??? Given that you just made a major change that is not proven yet should not discourage you. You are one of the pioneers as to how and how not to do these builds. Yes it sucks because it takes time away from you and your car and puts undue stress in your life, BUT we all know that there is still lots of love in that car that YOU put into it! Don't let a measly spring get your blood pressure out of sorts. Go sit in the drivers seat and just imagine what could be......

MY suggestion is......get your head fixed and prepped with whatever spring set YOU feel comfortable with. Whether you go back to the dual set up or whatever. Put the head back on. Find a GENUINE tuner near you, or take a road trip on a trailer and have your car tuned properly. You will then have piece of mind and also your most awesomest, funnest, rad M42 daily driver back and will forget what it took to get you there.

Good Luck with whatever you decide.....

Cheers,
~Ralph


Yeah seriously man....

bmwman91

  • Administrator
  • Legendary
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 33
  • Posts: 2798
    • View Profile
    • http://www.e30tuner.com/
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2013, 06:05:46 PM »
Quote from: Geoff;119320
I can only think that the fabled MM company is experiencing some life altering changes,  maybe their suppliers, management, build crew,  whatever,  something has changed.   How can such a well regarded company have so many screw-ups on one motor,  and a dam expensive one at that?   They screwed up not just your motor, but your attitude, and your love for the e-30 as well.    I dont know what to say, brother, except that I feel bad..
                                                                                Geoff:(

I think that when I placed my order, it was during an unusually "busy" time for them. MM is a team or 4-6 people. From talking to them, they are a very close group, basically family to one another. Friends I have talked to that have had engines built for other makes of car have ALL said that almost every engine builder they have dealt with is "great at building engines, not so great at running the business." Despite the screw-ups, MM is at least 100% behind me on this. Knowing what I know now, I could have manage them a little differently. My usual "hands-off" approach to things was not appropriate here. If I send them nagging emails with bullet lists of what I need done, it gets done fine. My suspicion is that they would not have these issues any longer if they doubled their staff, but I can see how they want to keep things small so that they have tight control over their builds.

Despite the "oopses" with them, I have a hard time getting mad because they are genuinely good people. At this point, I have to assume that they have burned through their margins with my engine and are just putting money into it to make it right for me. They are going to re-burn the chip and hand-select the injectors this time around, too.

Quote from: Warsteiner;119324
Sorry to hear that you're having all these issues! Running a larger injector is not a bad thing other than that they should all be of the same said type, make sure that they all actually flow nearly the same, and that the tuning is exactly meant for those injectors. Running too rich will wash down your cylinders and decrease your octane and cause havoc for your tune. I'll be running 24lb inj's in my set up as well. Your spring condition could be as simple as some sort of harmonics in the motor that they're not agreeing with.

One thing that you have to remember is that this is not a proven said up yet!! Yes there are 2.1L motors running around here and there BUT they are all different!! There is nothing standard about any 2.1L that I have ever read about, whether it be piston choice, inj's, to AFM or not to AFM is the question, cams, exhaust, to port the head or not, etc... etc...  YOU can't expect a set of inj's and chip sent to you to be perfect for YOUR motor, UNLESS the motor was installed in a car and tuned. Then that would be your tune and your tune only. Anytime you change one parameter of the motor, it should be retuned. I'm not saying that it won't run, it just isn't optimal for that motor anymore.

When chips and/or inj. set ups are sold off the shelf they go off of a standard baseline. Usually a stock motor, or X cam on the intake an Y cam on the exhaust or what have you, OR even an upgraded this or that can be the norm but it's still off of a baseline engine. These set ups are usually in a car and tuned specifically for those upgrades within a safety range so that they can be mass produced. Let's think about that for a moment......How many 2.1L or stroked M42's are REALLY out there? Do you think that any of them are the same? I highly doubt it. I know that mine is like no other out there.

You've taken such great care of your car from add ons to changes to maintaining it for daily use for how long??? Given that you just made a major change that is not proven yet should not discourage you. You are one of the pioneers as to how and how not to do these builds. Yes it sucks because it takes time away from you and your car and puts undue stress in your life, BUT we all know that there is still lots of love in that car that YOU put into it! Don't let a measly spring get your blood pressure out of sorts. Go sit in the drivers seat and just imagine what could be......

MY suggestion is......get your head fixed and prepped with whatever spring set YOU feel comfortable with. Whether you go back to the dual set up or whatever. Put the head back on. Find a GENUINE tuner near you, or take a road trip on a trailer and have your car tuned properly. You will then have piece of mind and also your most awesomest, funnest, rad M42 daily driver back and will forget what it took to get you there.

Good Luck with whatever you decide.....

Cheers,
~Ralph

Thanks Raplh. I do wonder how many calculations BMW may have done when they initially designed the M42, in terms of spring resonances and their relationship to the cam ramp angles and duration. I can see how spring selection may be far more than just picking the pre-load and travel allowance. The weird thing is that MM said that they have never seen a failure with this spring until now. Assuming that is true, then this must be a supplier quality issue. When the first one broke, the supplier recommended that they use ~230lbs of pre-load rather than the 160lbs that MM usually uses because of "coil resonance". It sort of sounds like BS to me, and MM agreed (aside form the fact that 230lbs would wear the hell out of the lifter heads & cam lobes). From reading around, it does sound like cams with a very aggressive ramp angle can be spring-killers, but I do not believe that my cams are ramped all that aggressively.

I do agree with you that I might want to look into a custom tune. The chip MM sent with the injectors was tuned on a 2.1L M42 at some point, but not mine specifically. It does sound like their 2.1L M42 build is "standard", but I take it that you believe that no two are REALLY the same enough to use a single chip?

As of now, my wife is stressing out about this because I spent a lot of money on the car and she feels like it is a big waste since it keeps breaking. We are looking at buying a house this year, so I can understand her aversion to "wasting money." At the same time, she doesn't think I should buy another car until I fix and sell the E30...which does sort of leave open certain possibilities lol. As of now, I think that the optimal course of action is to get HER a nicer newer car than her 2003 Civic LX, then we keep the Civic as the dependable/beater car, and maybe then I can also keep the E30. Regardless of what happens with the E30, my wife and I need TWO reliable cars. The E30 will never fall into that category, and I am sort of a dummy for thinking that it ever would lol. "Reliable" to me means "going 12 months without having to pull the timing case covers", but I am starting to see that my definition has sort of been shaped by owning an E30 for 12 years haha.

Quote from: nickmpower;119326
Guess the 36# i have in my engine are probably a little over sized...but 25mpg average

Wow. Well, I suppose that you never have to worry about burning them up with too high of a duty cycle!

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?

doitover

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 2
  • Posts: 260
    • View Profile
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2013, 07:48:02 AM »
It is good to hear that they are resending the injectors. Given your situation that was the only correct response. I was disappointed when I saw that you wrote the tuner had replied with just, "There is no way that could happen".

I understand your wife's concern but with all the things you have done to your car, once the engine is straightened out it will be as reliable as any other 10 to 12 year old car you pick up. My 91 318is since I have gotten it running half way correctly as required no maintenance other than brakes for nearly two years. There are still a lot of things I could do to it, but all of those things would be true of any car more than 8 years old.

Before you know it you will have kids and a minivan (both good things) but as into cars as you seem to be, driving something you don't love will eat at you and probably won't be good for those around you.

bmwman91

  • Administrator
  • Legendary
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Receive: 33
  • Posts: 2798
    • View Profile
    • http://www.e30tuner.com/
New Engine Suddenly Running on 3 Cylinders
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2013, 08:17:25 PM »
The tuner's "that's impossible" comment was one that the tuner made to their admin. I think that it was more of an expression of disbelief than anything...they explicitly asked me to send them the injectors and chip because they are trying to figure out what I got sent!

06/05/2011 - 212,354 miles
Visit HERE for a plethora of 318iS stuff and some other randomness.  Would you say I have a, plethora, of pinatas?