Author Topic: Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs  (Read 6597 times)

bmwman91

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« on: June 06, 2012, 12:40:26 PM »
Lots of very positive stories have been posted about using ITBs on these motors (with a proper tune of course). They have always tempted me, but I am getting old enough that I don't feel like swapping stuff around every year or two for SMOG inspections. Now, I imagine that it depends on the shop to some degree, but I have passed SMOG with a MAF conversion, COP conversion, slightly hacked up stock air box and a suspicious looking vacuum line sticking out of the intake manifold. These cars are probably old enough that the guy at the station just wants to see a stock air box and a cast aluminum intake manifold.

So...

What about chopping up the lower intake manifold a bit, since it is almost completely obscured by the upper part and other adjacent stuff? You could either do some heavy mods with a milling machine & TIG welder to incorporate custom throttle butterflies into the original intake runners, or maybe chop parts of it out and bolt/weld in the throttles from some other ITB setup. Maybe get the upper & lower portions extrude-honed out first to open them up (at least for those of us with displacements > 1.8L) and totally bore out everything in the original throttle body so that it is just a "shell" to look stock.

I sort of like the idea of having a stock looking motor that is anything BUT stock, one because you don't have SMOG headaches, and two because the "sleeper" type of setup is always good times. Also, I think that the stock plenum dimensions are sort of important. The M42 is a small-ish displacement 4 cylinder with little enough torque as it is. The original intake system was designed to balance mid- & high-range torque, and the various resonances created by the stock runners & plenum are part of that. I know that ITBs really help with high end power, but I think that it would be nice to trade a little of that for more mid-range torque. Honestly, if I wanted to work that hard while driving, I'd just go buy a Honda S2000 and call it a day lol.

I have played with basic slide-throttle setups in CAD a few times, and that would be the easiest way (mechanically) to get the throttle as close to the head as possible. However, all of my reading about slide throttles indicates that they are extremely temperamental, and that they are almost guaranteed to get stuck open at some point unless you service them all the time. There's a reason that only race cars use them lol...when you tear a motor down after every race, you can use all sorts of temperamental stuff like that.

This isn't something I will be starting any time soon, but I would like to start the thought process on it. I have a custom motor coming in a couple of weeks, am going to Asia for work around the same time and have a wedding in October. So, maybe later this winter I will see about picking up a spare intake manifold setup and toying around with the possibilities.

I am interested to hear what people here think, and I am especially curious to see commentary from people with "proper" ITB setups. What differences did they make, how do you like them for street-use and what are your thoughts about the use of them with the stock upper intake manifold?

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BKCowGod

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2012, 01:43:40 PM »
I will say one thing - the average smog guy in the bay area knows very little about old Euro cars. I passed visual and sniff in a Porsche 951 with a big turbo, no cat, chip, MAF, upgraded injectors, CAI... I have also passed with Weber conversions (replacing EFI), engine swaps - if it's old and not a Honda or Toyota, they just push it through to the sniffer in my experience.
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\'91 RX7, \'92 S4, \'93 Range Rover - sometimes they run!

bmwman91

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2012, 02:15:12 PM »
Haha nice. Maybe if I make a plastic cover to hide the "dBilas" logo, I can just go that route lol. In the end it would probably be cheaper than hacking up the stock stuff, although I love me some good custom fabbing!

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DesktopDave

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2012, 03:28:43 PM »
I've suspected for a long time that inspectors are "lightening up" on the law.  Not sure about Cali, of course, but there's a lot of tea party types around here looking to cut back on any sort of meaningful DOT regulations.

Given the amount of work you're investing in the MAF conversion, I'd love to see what you come up with.  Personally I'd consider a set of Yamaha R1 or R6 ITB's...driven with a Megasquirt or VEMS and nice little WBO2.


Granted, Pittsburgh is a rust belt backwater, but you should hear some of the 'louder is safer' Hardly 'tards, ricer beeotches and/or redneck truck hoons 'round here.  I see it all...straight pipes, carbs, chips, Ebay turbos, you name it.  Anything goes, more or less.  I'm sure nobody's looking for 100% original equipment on our cars...they're old enough to drink legally!
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wazzu70

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2012, 03:29:37 PM »
Some other people have passed smog in cali with the dbilas setup.

Personally, if you want to keep the stock manifold and increase breathing I would just make a big bore throttle body by expanding the size of the second butterfly valve.

Its supposed to work quite well and would look OEM. You could also possibly adapt a M50 unit which uses the same TPS.
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

carnurd

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 01:10:09 AM »
I want to do a extrutabody setup possibly anodized black then just make a 2 piece intake box and then add a BMW Motorsports label on the side and run it through smog bet they won't ask a thing.

bmwman91

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 01:25:25 AM »
Quote from: wazzu70;113048
Some other people have passed smog in cali with the dbilas setup.

Personally, if you want to keep the stock manifold and increase breathing I would just make a big bore throttle body by expanding the size of the second butterfly valve.

Its supposed to work quite well and would look OEM. You could also possibly adapt a M50 unit which uses the same TPS.


Hmm...does changing the TB diameter affect the torque curve / require a custom tune? The intake system seems pretty sensitive to changes...a larger TB would flow more air, but would it screw up the tuning?

Yeah, I think that a tasteful hack-job of some S50 ITBs might work and look good. Anyone got info on that?

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wazzu70

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2012, 07:31:41 PM »
Too large of a diameter throttle blade will make it hard to modulate the throttle. Think about it in terms of open area per degree of throttle rotation. The main issue is at low throttle.

Adjusting for the air is not too difficult as the AFM/MAF measures the inflowing air. Throttle position is mostly used for ignition maps to tell if you are trying to accelerate or cruise. Obviously simplified example, but you get the picture.

S50 throttles can be had fairly cheap. I was thinking of cutting off the flange and welding on a new one to fit M42 bolt pattern. I am also investigating Hayabusa throttles possibly. They are 46mm diameter throttles which I figure are about right. They can also be bored to 48mm easily if needed.

Dbilas look the most factory IMO.
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

bmwman91

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2012, 07:54:27 PM »
What is the inside diameter of the stock intake runners?

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thedguy

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2012, 08:54:05 PM »
Isn't the benefit to itb's largely from larger throttle bodies and shorter runners with better flow into the runners with titter bell ends?

I had considered trying to enlarge the plenum, improve the runner to plenum transition, and go to a larger throttle body setup with multiple plates on it to keep the engine more tractable at low throttle openings.

I however have been super lazy on learning the skill set to make any of this happen.

wazzu70

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2012, 12:41:44 AM »
Throttle response is the main benefit. The sound is divine as well :)

I need to measure the inlet diameter of the runners as well. I just started researching DIY stuff seriously so I am still piecing things together.

Ill put up an inlet runner diameter Monday since Im planning to work on the car and I have the upper intake removed :)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 12:48:34 AM by wazzu70 »
-Nick
91 E30 M42 with VEMS

bmwman91

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2012, 05:31:45 PM »
Here's a silly idea I was working on in CAD. Yeah, this would have a laundry list of problems when it comes to making it reliable and avoiding metal shavings, but it sure looks cool!

http://youtu.be/zHlQBEQkTvA

The guide slots are curved to try to give the driver improved modulation at low-openings for better "around town" drivability. Assuming a linear-pull, the opening vs input curve is thus.


I think that a slide throttle would be the easiest thing to make, and it has one moving part which is always a bonus for reliability. I dis like them because at part throttle, you get air flow on one side only. I have been toying with a dual-slide setup where you have 2 moving plates that overlap in the center. As you open the throttle, the opening starts & grows out from the center. You can get most or all of the advantages of the ridiculous iris throttle idea, without as many headaches.

Either way, I like the "flat" throttle arrangements since it seems like one can just cut the stock runners and TIG in the new stuff, or TIG an adapter plate and bolt things in.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 05:37:45 PM by bmwman91 »

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Warsteiner

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S42 Slides
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2012, 10:04:16 PM »
Do these look like they would pass for stock looking?:D

http://s927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/Warsteiner_photos/M42%20Stroker/

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bmwman91

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2012, 11:42:20 PM »
NICE! That's the first slide throttle I have ever seen on an M42? Did you build it yourself? How does it feel compared to the butterfly ITBs?

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MLM

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Idea: Stock-Looking ITBs
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2012, 02:41:03 AM »
That iris concept is awesome!! I imgine they would need springs (possibly blade not coil) to bias the blades to prevent jambing.

For a non USA resident im going to ask a dumb question. Whats a smog test? It sounds more than a O2 sensor up the tail pipe but a full induction and exhaust inspectionwhere no mods are allowed? What if your mods reduce emmisions?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:44:05 AM by MLM »