Author Topic: My Dyno Chart (Read 10262 times)

wazzu70 · « **on:** September 26, 2011, 10:01:04 PM »

I couldn't find a chart on here anywhere with this info, but I think it would be good to complie. If there is already a thread with this let me know and I will close out this one.

128hp/116tq on a dynojet. I did multiple runs until the data converged and was consistent. Of the two lines shown, one is in 4th gear one in 3rd gear. For all intensive purposes they were the same curve and similar power.

The mixture gets really lean, not sure why. I did this as a baseline and I will be putting on a different management system so I'm not concerned about fixing the problem.

Mods:
MarkD chip
M20 flywheel
Dynomax muffler

Dyno videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKq8Rkzj8-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq-S0PxWaAk

Picture on the dyno:

Warsteiner · « **Reply #1 on:** September 27, 2011, 07:00:14 AM »

Hey Nick.....not sure why you're AFR's are so high either other than a leak of un-metered air, but what baffles me is your rev limit. Mark increases that in his chips but yours shows the stock rev limit. Any ideas? Nice power though.

Cheers,
~Ralph

wazzu70 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2011, 12:50:39 PM »

Ralph, my suspicion is unmetered air as well. I am going to look for leaks this weekend. My engine is pretty fresh so I would be surprised to find any cracked hoses or anything.

I was having an issue that I traced back to the round engine harness plug on the firewall. The plug internally had some corrosion on the contacts so I used contact cleaner on those contacts and the AFM, TPS, CLT, ect. Hoping maybe a bad signal was the cause.

You are correct on the MarkD chip increasing rev limit. I was not feeling any power gain so I didnt see the point revving higher. If you look at the graph you can see the hp just was flat up top. With a proper mixture I assume things might have been different and power would keep climbing with RPM.

I have 272 deg cams in the car now and will dyno for comparison shortly. Trying to figure out the mixture issue first.

Warsteiner · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2011, 08:47:36 PM »

Yeah Nick...I would find the excess air before you go to the dyno again with those cams:D I think you would see a difference in rpm/powerband with a bit more fuel.

Good luck with finding it.

Cheers,
~Ralph

wazzu70 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2011, 07:57:13 PM »

Ralph, after a lot of searching it appears that JimC and MarkD have really lean tunes. Not sure why this is, but for some reason, its the consensus. I have seen too many people complain about this problem for it to be everyone having massive air leaks, especially when the people have well maintained engines. The M42 runs pretty lean naturally for emissions reasons I have heard, and the tuners just adjust the spark map.

At any rate, the decent fix seems to be getting slightly larger injectors from the Mustang or Volvo.

Anyway, against my better judgement I decided to see how the engine reacted with the new cams and no other major changes (except finding there are no air leaks). The cams acted as expected dropping a little power down low. When it gets up to the point it leveled off before from being too lean...well, it did the same again. I lost 2hp peak actually. I had them use the O2 sensor that replaces your regular one for a more accurate measurement hoping the sniffer was inaccurate. Watching the screen on the dyno....things were scary lean at points (15~16:1). Makes sense though as I'm now ramming more air into an engine that had too much air before :eek: The engine feels a lot better around town though. It feels so much better. I am excited to see what the cams do when I actually tune in decent fueling.

Dyno with cams (272deg Delta Cams regrind)

Before and after overlay:

Blue: before
Red: after

Bottom line: If you have a chip, you most likely need slightly larger injectors. Dyno to verify and add the charts here! If you want cams, you without a doubt need larger injectors to make proper use of them.

Good news is the VEMS is soooo close. I should be able to dial it in well. Even better, I found an E85 station down the way from me (about 40 minute drive) so if I use bigger injectors and fuel pump, I can run that and tune it properly. That should be fun. VEMS has the ability to switch between tunes from a switch on the dash, so I can have one for petrol, and one for Ethanol. Should be fun.

Warsteiner · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2011, 10:23:11 PM »

Hey Nick,

I ran the Jim C chip with my wideband and at WOT and I was never lean. Jim C doesn't tune anything that could cause him a nightmare. He runs them safe and safe means on the richer side. I'm sure that Mark D follows suit. I also know that JC tunes all maps not just WOT. Again, I'm sure Mark D as well. One West coast tuner only tunes WOT that I know of, but we won't mention them.

Lean can create power but is not good for the engine. Richer can also make power but not too rich as in the low 12's or lower which can wash down the cylinders and lower your viscosity in your oil.

I know you said you didn't change anything major but the cams. So here are my observations to that.

Cam dyno shows you richer? You lost power. Even at 6900rpm you're about 12.9 and that is where you want to be. So a bit more fuel for the cams could be good. Now�you can do that 2 ways; add an adjustable FPR or get bigger inj's and tune. An adjustable FPR will raise fuel across the board and might just solve the issue but I think you and I agree that you need to adjust the timing as well to absolutely get the maximum benefit of the cams!

In the 15-16AFR area you're ok. It's only at 2500-3300rpm. No worries there.

So what I'm saying is��You add cams, more lift, more duration, more air but your AFR's go down? Really?:-) Your AFR's are almost identical but slightly better with the cams. Doesn't make sense does it?

Your HP should have gone up, not down with the cams, even without tuning. Something is still a miss here.

Your first inj 702 looks to be ok to use. The 710 doesn't have the area next to the electrical connection for your inj clip to even be applied. I have a set of stock 0 280 150 714's that were rebuilt and they flowed 204cc's. How old are your inj's in your car right now? I would love to see you try a fresh set of stock 714's!! There is no noticeable difference in flow in 204cc vs 208cc.

So��.what shape are your inj's in now? Would you dyno with a fresh set to see what happens???

Let us know how you decide to proceed my friend�

Cheers,
~Ralph
E30 M3 2.5L with 300+HP
E30 318is 2.05L with ???HP (soon to be running)

wazzu70 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 09, 2011, 06:01:00 PM »

Ralph, thanks for the comments. Always appreciated.

I am glad to hear that you had good luck getting a proper AFR with your JimC tune. It does not really make sense not to get a proper AFR as its not really very difficult. I suppose odds are good then that a lot of the people out there just have a problem somewhere causing the lean condition. I have worked with engines a long time, and one that that's a common trend is people do not maintain their engines well

Cracked hoses and such are pretty common and can cause issues!

Also, yeah, that west coast tuner that people seem to love definitely only touches the WOT part of the tune which is why he is probably factory endorsed

.

I didn't look at my chart close enough to notice that the dyno with the cams is running much richer. Thanks for pointing that out. Kind of blows a big hole in my theory

.

I agree that being lean in the lower revs/low load is not a big issue. Many factory vehicles are tuned this way for fuel efficiency.

I will look things over and test for vacuum leaks again. Seems to point to something like unmetered air getting in. The injectors are just the injectors that came in the engine which is a "junkyard jewel." They don't seem nasty, but I have not had them flow tested to verify they are clean and working properly.

Here is the engine when I got it:

Not exactly clean enough to eat off.

Here is my build thread if you want to see it: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89208

I want to try and verify I don't have an issue with the injectors and air leaks, but I will be replacing the AFM and O2 with the standalone system so I am not worried about those.

I was hoping that the round connector on the firewall I cleaned would correct the issue as it was causing a voltage drop for other components. Also a few e36M3s had dynoed at the same place a few days before and all were lean so I was hoping the sniffer was misreading a bit and having the O2 in the downpipe would give more accurate readings. Either way, it didn't solve the issues.

I am excited to see what I can do when I dial in the fueling and timing.

Warsteiner · « **Reply #7 on:** October 25, 2011, 07:13:59 AM »

Nick,

Somehow I missed your reply:rolleyes: I'm out of the country until Thanksgiving but will try to reply. I would delete the AFM if your're going standalone no? Makes more sense to pick up a lot more torque down low, but you will need bigger injectors. I just dynoed my E30 M3 2.5L that I just rebuilt. On 92 octane it made 278 RWHP and on 100 Octane 290 RWHP. That's some HP to have fun with. I'm running Vipec with Alpha N. Those inj's are 300+ cc's and I was lean on the 100 octane so I had to increase my fuel pressure due to the light weight of that fuel.

I think you should start with clean inj's and then go from there. Then step up the cc's accordingly to what you think your power increase might be. Your AFM could also be bad as mentioned and O2 as well. Lots to check into. I would just eliminate the AFM and tune on a good wideband and then leave the system alone. Why put $$ into parts when you could spend them more wisely like on your standalone and eliminating restrictions.

Cheers,
~Ralph

wazzu70 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2011, 12:07:29 AM »

Ralph, somehow I missed your as well!

With the VEMS since I will be running it off a MAP sensor I definitely plan on ditching that clunker AFM

I will be using a WBO2 with the VEMS as well so the factory narrow band will be going in the trash. I'm pretty sure its bad, but I can't cough up the dough to replace it when I know a better system is on the way.

I also have a set of 96lb injectors (very large) that I will eventually switch to. I want to run the car on ethanol and these were a good deal from a friend. I might eventually sell them and get something a little smaller if I have problems dialing in the idle with such large injectors :cool:

In other news, I had a bit of time this weekend so I checked the cam timing on the engine. Turns out the exhaust cam was a few degrees retarded which would have a bad performance impact. With the cam in the proper position the car idles much better. I haven't got a chance to do a nice WOT run yet, but the engine feels healthier around town.

I also got an EGT sensor and a knock sensor for the VEMS so I can monitor the engine better.

Wish everything was progressing at a faster rate...

bwawuz02 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:58:20 PM »

Any updates?

wazzu70 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2012, 12:52:46 AM »

Thanks for asking. The car runs a lot better with the cam timing revised, but I have not dyno'd it.

Hoping to start the car up on VEMS this weekend. Finished all the wiring and stuff, just waiting for an intake manifold gasket to seal it back up.

Hope to post some updates soon.

bwawuz02 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2012, 02:34:04 AM »

Now that i have the ITBs sitting in my room and I know my KnockLink G4 is being shipped I cannot wait to get home and get this thing put together and tuned. Based on your plots, I think my build should def be able to put down 175-180 at the wheels. I'd be happy with 100hp/liter.

Get that VEMS in already!

Author Topic: My Dyno Chart (Read 10262 times)

wazzu70

My Dyno Chart

Warsteiner

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wazzu70

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