Author Topic: LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions  (Read 17691 times)

92BMW318is

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« on: April 30, 2010, 02:32:24 AM »
I have a 92 318is

  I need to know what kind of diff would be the best for my car, i want acceleration more then i want top speed. I need Some one to school me on the different gear ratios and what would be best for my car.
   
   Whats the difference between an open diff and a lsd

 Ive tryed to look at the threads as well as google but couldn't find what i was looking for.

harvey2

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2010, 09:13:46 PM »
Quote from: 92BMW318is;91699
I have a 92 318is

  I need to know what kind of diff would be the best for my car, i want acceleration more then i want top speed. I need Some one to school me on the different gear ratios and what would be best for my car.
   
   Whats the difference between an open diff and a lsd

 Ive tryed to look at the threads as well as google but couldn't find what i was looking for.


An open diff delivers torque to both rear drive wheels, and also allows the wheels to turn at different rates for going around corners smoothly.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_%28mechanical_device%29

An open differential delivers equal torque to both wheels, no matter what.  This means that when one wheel loses traction, and only needs a small amount of torqure to spin, then the other wheel simply gets that same small amount of torque.  The sum total torque delivered to the road therefore shrinks the less traction either of the tires have.   On ice, the total torque delivered might approach zero.  If you have one tire up in the air on hard cornering, the other tire gets zero torque.

The limited slip differential is designed a bit differently.  It will always send a useful amount of torque to the wheel with the better traction.  So you get a benefit from the limited slip feature in situations where one wheel loses grip, during racing or on loose surfaces for example.

There are different kinds of limited slip diffs, but the most common in the E30/E34 world is the clutch (plate) type.  A few owners have installed helical gear differentials (torsen, Quaife, etc.) as well.  

If you want more acceleration in a straight line in a 318, then an LSD probably won't help.  However, if you have additional power, or if your tires are not great, or if you want that acceleration on loose surfaces (all situations where you might spin your rear wheels) then an LSD would be a significant help.  If you want more acceleration during hard cornering, then absolutely an LSD will help.  

As for gear ratios, there are a few to choose from in the BMW world.  I'm familiar with E30 ratios, but not so much E34 ratios.  In my car, which is a '91 318is with M42 motor and Getrag 240 transmission (which is stock for my year), I run a 4.27 rear end.  In fact the 4.10 that was stock in my car was also pretty good.  The effect of the gear/diff ratio is a torque multiplication.  The higher your total gear ratio, the more torque you feel at the wheels.  And since torque is what makes your car get up and go from a stop, improving your torque multiplier is a good thing.

Here's some reading:

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=707

In my case, I only improved my torque multiplication factor by about 4% by going from a 4.10 to a 4.27 ratio in the rear end.  

One other thing that really helped my car accelerate better was to change to a lightweight flywheel+clutch assembly.  I also mounted the lightest wheels and tires that I could.  These two things reduce the rotational mass that the engine has to accelerate.  Accelerating rotational mass takes more power from the engine  than accelerating static mass, pound for pound that is, mainly because the rotating mass has to move faster than the static mass.  So lighter wheels and tires plus lighter flywheel should theoretically allow your engine to spin up faster.  In practice, the flywheel is rotating a lot faster than your wheels are from a start, so lightening that has a large effect in first and second gears and less effect once you get beyond second.   Lightening the wheels has a more subtle effect, and assists handling dynamics in other ways too, so it is good thing to do, but does not give you much of a boost in acceleration.
\'91 318is

Letsplayskatch

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2010, 12:48:01 PM »
And now in plain english...

Open Diff: Standard on most BMWs.
Sends power equally to both wheels, regardless of whats happening on the road (dry,wet,icy).

LSD: An optional extra on non-M models. Standard on M models.
Sends a set percentage of power to the wheel which has the most grip.
I.e. put your foot down on a left hand corner, and the wheel with the most grip (in this case the right-rear) will be fed a pre-determined percentage (usually 25%) of the inside wheels power. Basically the power will always go to the wheel with the most traction, to help increase and/or maintain cornering speed.

Simples ;)



And on a side note, the iS came with a 4.10 Open Diff as standard. I changed to a 4.10 LSD and it has transfromed the car :) There isnt too much in it, performance wise, between the avaliable LSD ratios. I'd have liked a 4.27 if all the car saw country B roads more often, but it doesnt.

Scott.


PumpItUp

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2010, 05:13:05 PM »
it's probably a waste to buy a brand new lsd (whether pumpkin or just rebuild kit) unless you're trying to be the drift king. or you're completely restoring the rest of your car as well.

just buy a used one, hopefully low miles, but it's more important how it was driven (rainy day antics or just a commuter to work) and whether there was fluid in it. don't pay attention to the ratio since you're trying to get your car running, if you find what you wanted later you can always swap and resell. because it's not always easy to find the one from your trim which will just swap in without any additional work (or parts), as there's small case (e30 318), medium (6cyl) and large (5series?), and small differences in all of those.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDXMOnYiMa8

Letsplayskatch

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2010, 06:53:11 PM »
E30 Diffs only came in Small and Medium case flavour. Although one is larger than the other, thats it - there was no 'large case' diff as such. Its just Small or Medium case :) The Medium case'd diffs were found on the 6cyl models, and are capeable of withstanding higher torque output. My own 4.10 LSD (rare) is a Medium case (so extra rare :D) I think it was from a US spec 318i convertable.


92BMW318is

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2010, 07:42:47 PM »
i called bulvarian yesterday and they said that the normal gear ratio for my car was somthing like 3.65

Warsteiner

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2010, 09:01:17 PM »
So you're ok with "bulvarian" telling you it's something like? Yeah...I'd buy from them.

Your car has a 3.45 stock ratio.

92BMW318is

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2010, 09:36:59 PM »
Quote from: Letsplayskatch;91761
And now in plain english...

Open Diff: Standard on most BMWs.
Sends power equally to both wheels, regardless of whats happening on the road (dry,wet,icy).

LSD: An optional extra on non-M models. Standard on M models.
Sends a set percentage of power to the wheel which has the most grip.
I.e. put your foot down on a left hand corner, and the wheel with the most grip (in this case the right-rear) will be fed a pre-determined percentage (usually 25%) of the inside wheels power. Basically the power will always go to the wheel with the most traction, to help increase and/or maintain cornering speed.

Simples ;)



And on a side note, the iS came with a 4.10 Open Diff as standard. I changed to a 4.10 LSD and it has transfromed the car :) There isnt too much in it, performance wise, between the avaliable LSD ratios. I'd have liked a 4.27 if all the car saw country B roads more often, but it doesnt.

Scott.


So the bigger the number the more speed you will have and the lower the the number the more acceleration?

should i go up from the stock of 3.45, or should i stay at it.
id rather have acceleration then top speed

92BMW318is

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2010, 09:42:26 PM »
Quote from: PumpItUp;91769
it's probably a waste to buy a brand new lsd (whether pumpkin or just rebuild kit) unless you're trying to be the drift king. or you're completely restoring the rest of your car as well.

just buy a used one, hopefully low miles, but it's more important how it was driven (rainy day antics or just a commuter to work) and whether there was fluid in it. don't pay attention to the ratio since you're trying to get your car running, if you find what you wanted later you can always swap and resell. because it's not always easy to find the one from your trim which will just swap in without any additional work (or parts), as there's small case (e30 318), medium (6cyl) and large (5series?), and small differences in all of those.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDXMOnYiMa8


thanks man for the help thank all of you guys actually,

ill most likely just buy the stock and figure the rest out at a later date

PumpItUp

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2010, 01:23:41 AM »
good, you can always weld the diff :D
when i bought my car i drained the fluid and there was plenty of metal that came along, so i figured there wasn't much locking ability left and to save money I would continue to drive it, not dealing with it until it became undriveable. couple years later still hasn't.

info on this topic is confusing. you'd have to deal with more cars than just one 318 to see the whole picture. if i was you i would go to a bmw/german auto dismantler, especially the ones you can walk through and see stacks of transmissions and diffs, to see what will fit (same pumpkin), and what could fit with some small alterations (changing the case,etc). you don't have to worry about swapping internals due to your damaged unit, unless you're buying more than one new diff. look at the stickers and tags for ratios.'
41:10 = 4.10
 Would help if the broken diff was in the car to compare before i buying anything. places like that usually have lousy return policies, only if its fked up they'll begrudgingly let you bring it back, they won't refund your labor cost ofcourse. so do the work yourself

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?p=1498642

PumpItUp

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2010, 01:34:27 AM »
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=339548

so large case diffs are from the 7 & 8 series o_o ? (for the 8 or 12 cylinder?)

Warsteiner

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2010, 05:37:51 AM »
Quote from: PumpItUp;91795
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=339548

so large case diffs are from the 7 & 8 series o_o ? (for the 8 or 12 cylinder?)


Yes the large 210's are from the 8 & 12 Cyl's.

Letsplayskatch

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2010, 06:13:21 AM »
Quote from: 92BMW318is;91784
So the bigger the number the more speed you will have and the lower the the number the more acceleration?

should i go up from the stock of 3.45, or should i stay at it.
id rather have acceleration then top speed

Other way round fella, the bigger the number the quicker the acceleration.
E.g. for a 4.10 ratio, the rear wheels will turn 4.10 times for every 1 engine revolution. So if you increase that 4.10 number (so the wheels turn more, compared to the engine's own revolutions) then you'll have greater acceleration. Get it? :D

BTW as far as I know (and im 99% on this), the E30 318is came with a 4.10 ratio'd Diff (either in Open or LSD flavour). There wasn't a 3.45 avaliable on any of the models. The closest was a 3.46 on a few pre-facelift models :

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/index.php/E30_Differentials

^ From the UK's E30 Zone Wiki :cool: ^ A great resource.


Warsteiner

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2010, 06:31:09 AM »
Quote from: Letsplayskatch;91802


BTW as far as I know (and im 99% on this), the E30 318is came with a 4.10 ratio'd Diff (either in Open or LSD flavour). There wasn't a 3.45 avaliable on any of the models. The closest was a 3.46 on a few pre-facelift models :

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/index.php/E30_Differentials

^ From the UK's E30 Zone Wiki :cool: ^ A great resource.


His 1st post said that he has '92 318is.  3.45 in manual 92-93 318i/is.  The 3.46 was in the 5 series.:)

Cheers,
~Ralph

Letsplayskatch

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LSD 4.27 Diff, Questions
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2010, 06:34:57 AM »
I see ;)