Turbo M42 Questions

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BlueBMW

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Turbo M42 Questions
« on: April 19, 2010, 06:05:37 PM »
Realizing I need to think about refreshing my timing components, I started asking around just to see if anyone I know has any extra parts etc to do the job.  What I found instead was a complete motor... but not just a stock motor.  One of the guys I work with, his dad has his own independent shop.  They had built a motor for a customer and had it all running and going good but with one problem.  The turbo seemed to leak oil internally, or wasn't draining properly or something so the result was excess smoke after the car had run for a while.  After three rebuilds on the turbo, they gave up and put a stock motor back in the car.  (or the customer ran out of money / patience) Whats left is a complete turbo M42 setup.  From what he told me, they were running 22psi boost and had built the motor with 6:1 compression "ross" (?) pistons and everything else necessary to run such high boost.  This motor was in an E36 and had the e36 style manifold etc...

Questions....

-- What is a nearly freshly rebuilt M42 with manifolds / pipes / turbo / intercooler computer / harness etc worth?  Supposedly they want to get rid of it cheap since its been sitting for a long time now.  I heard rumor of around $1200 for everything.

-- If it is true, what all am I looking at to make this work in my E30?  I understand that it is a bottom mount turbo (which might be part of oil issue)  I would think i'd need a new manifold to make it top mount.  I would also need to swap / modify an E30 m42 oil pan to work.  Lastly I know I'd need new pipes and mounts etc.  Anything else I'm missing?

-- Does anyone make a boost gauge that replaces the fuel econometer?

-- Is there any way to setup a turbo to be somewhat reliable?  I understand they were maxing things out at 22psi, is it possible to tune back to much less pressure to improve overall reliability?

-- Will my stock transmission and small case 4:10 lsd stand a chance at surviving with a higher powered motor?  I'd be happy if it could be tuned to make 180 to 200 hp, but I don't know how much they were getting out of it at 22psi.

-- What size exhaust would I need to upgrade to?  I'm still on a stock size 2.25" though with non OEM parts.

I've never done much with turbos etc (except for try and fix these new N54 motors at work... total junk!) so forgive my ignorance.  I'm going to go look at the stuff this week so I might be able to get some pictures.
1991 318is (Sold to brother :()
1995 530i (Daily driver til I find another 318is!)


Ryann

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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2010, 09:07:50 PM »
I used to own and play around with 80's Saab 900 turbos, so I guess they are my reference point when thinking about turbo anything. Specs were as follows:

2.0L 16 valve turbocharged/intercooled 4 cylinder with 8.5:1 CR, approx. max boost 7.5 psi, Bosch LH ignition/injection.
claimed 160HP, 175lb/ft. of torque.

They had this system called "APC" which amounted to a computer/solenoid controlled wastegate that dumped turbo pressure when knock was sensed. The general consensus amongst Saab nerds was that the system was too conservative and prematurely bled boost pressure. We used to adjust the linkage on the wastegate until boost pressure got high enough that APC would instigate fuel cutoff under hard acceleration, then turn it back a bit.. usually wound up around 10 psi max using premium pump fuel.

These engines were EXTREMELY reliable. The rest of the car would fall apart around it while the engine kept on ticking. Like the M42, Saab's 16v used forged internals, timing chains, hydraulic lifters, and sodium filled exhaust valves. I think the Saab intercooler and APC system could be adapted to work with an M42. I don't see how turbo location could be contributing to the "smoke" as most automotive turbo setups sit below the head/s.

I wager that even at 6:1 CR, 22 psi of boost is going to be excessive with any pump gas especially considering you haven't mentioned an intercooler or knock sensor setup. I think your 6:1 M42 (intercooled) could manage 190hp & 190lb/ft @ 15 psi & premium pump gas. I'm thinking the low CR is going to give you some pretty mean turbo lag.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 09:56:59 PM by Ryann »
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BlueBMW

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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2010, 10:04:20 PM »
I'm curious to see exactly how they had it set up.  Having never dealt with turbos much previously I dont have much to go on.  The only turbocharged car I had was a mercedes diesel which was weak even when the turbo did kick in.  I guess you could say I'm used to lag with the stock M42 since it doesn't come alive until you get over 3000 rpm anyways.

The whole thing might be more effort than its worth, but since I'm looking at putting quite a bit of money into re-doing my timing components, maybe I'd be better off putting that money towards a different setup completely.
1991 318is (Sold to brother :()
1995 530i (Daily driver til I find another 318is!)


Ryann

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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2010, 10:41:08 PM »
I think we're ALL curious about turbocharging our M42's. Somebody needs to step up and really document the process. Maybe you?

I think it'd be cool to devise a clean looking (turbo below head), affordable, low pressure setup that'd allow 160-170hp/torque on pump fuel without any piston or engine management mods.
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nickmpower

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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2010, 03:07:54 AM »
There is no way that is the actual compression ratio.

BlueBMW

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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2010, 06:32:01 AM »
My understanding is this motor is already setup for a below head turbo charger, but I also am told that the oil pan was modified to accommodate that, and also it was for an E36 so that oil pan would be incompatible with the E30.   I'll see what happens.  As far as the compression ratio, I'm just going by word of mouth, I know they replaced the pistons and supposedly they are 6:1 which to me sounds really low.
1991 318is (Sold to brother :()
1995 530i (Daily driver til I find another 318is!)


NisseJärnet

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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2010, 10:39:59 AM »
Quote from: Ryann;91124
I think we're ALL curious about turbocharging our M42's. Somebody needs to step up and really document the process. Maybe you?

I think it'd be cool to devise a clean looking (turbo below head), affordable, low pressure setup that'd allow 160-170hp/torque on pump fuel without any piston or engine management mods.


I can put up some info and pictures of my M42 turbo setup when its finished :)
Looking for 3-350hp on stock internals and pump gas. It should hit the dyno 11-05-2010 if everything goes smooth.
-88 E30 325i M50 6spd turbo, 764whp
-89 E30 318i M42, 140hp COP conv. (E36 engine + gearbox, 3.73 188 diff)
-90 E30 318is M42 turbo, 240whp (sold)
http://www.youtube.com/nissejarnet

bmwconnect

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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2010, 04:45:09 PM »
Quote from: NisseJärnet;91136
I can put up some info and pictures of my M42 turbo setup when its finished :)
Looking for 3-350hp on stock internals and pump gas. It should hit the dyno 11-05-2010 if everything goes smooth.

What PSI are running? I'm currently on 12-13psi at 20deg BTDC 11-12afr stock internals and the head locked down with grade12.9 bolts. Head was lifting last year at 18 psi on the stock head bolts
BarrieM/// BMW Tuner - OBD1 M42,M30,M20,M50,S50 Chips & OBD2 M44,S52,M52 Flashes
EMAIL:midnight-tuning@rogers.com
http://www.facebook.com/Midnight.Tuning.Solutions
Midnight YouTube Channel

NisseJärnet

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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2010, 04:50:12 PM »
Quote from: bmwconnect;91147
What PSI are running? I'm currently on 12-13psi at 20deg BTDC 11-12afr stock internals and the head locked down with grade12.9 bolts. Head was lifting last year at 18 psi on the stock head bolts


I havent run on boost yet, just made a short test run around the block to adjust the MS and to see its all working :)

I have M50 non vanos rods and o-ring block with ARP head studs, very low compression like 7:1 hehe.

Will se how it works on may 11 :)

What size turbo u got and do u know how much hp?
-88 E30 325i M50 6spd turbo, 764whp
-89 E30 318i M42, 140hp COP conv. (E36 engine + gearbox, 3.73 188 diff)
-90 E30 318is M42 turbo, 240whp (sold)
http://www.youtube.com/nissejarnet

bmwconnect

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Turbo M42 Questions
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2010, 05:01:24 PM »
T3/T4 Hybrid 63trim
HP unknown I have not been to the dyno yet. I'm going to run 15psi and see how she holds up. Im purity confident it won't blow the HG out. There was a guy with a M10 running 26psi stock and it finaly let go when he ran into some boost spike problems if I remember correctly
BarrieM/// BMW Tuner - OBD1 M42,M30,M20,M50,S50 Chips & OBD2 M44,S52,M52 Flashes
EMAIL:midnight-tuning@rogers.com
http://www.facebook.com/Midnight.Tuning.Solutions
Midnight YouTube Channel

Ryann

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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2010, 10:34:45 PM »
Based on my experience 350hp on pump gas for the m42 is unreachable- those are s42 numbers guys. But hey- dynos, threads, let's see them.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 10:38:24 PM by Ryann »
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BlueBMW

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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2010, 06:35:54 AM »
I don't even know if there is a dyno local to me.  We don't even have a nearby 1/4 mile track, only 1/8th mile here :(
1991 318is (Sold to brother :()
1995 530i (Daily driver til I find another 318is!)


bmwconnect

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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2010, 11:01:15 PM »
made about 30 runs today on 15psi . stock motor took the boost like a champ. I suspect it can hold more and I shall continue to push it
BarrieM/// BMW Tuner - OBD1 M42,M30,M20,M50,S50 Chips & OBD2 M44,S52,M52 Flashes
EMAIL:midnight-tuning@rogers.com
http://www.facebook.com/Midnight.Tuning.Solutions
Midnight YouTube Channel

bmwconnect

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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2010, 10:41:41 AM »
16-17psi today and it was 5degC outside. AFRs 11-12/ 91octane. 300ft above sea level. saw some detonation at 19degs BTDC and so backed the timing off to 18degs and the car held with no problems. I suspect the spark plugs played a part in destination also, so I ordered two step colder plugs. The car is easly making over 300hp
BarrieM/// BMW Tuner - OBD1 M42,M30,M20,M50,S50 Chips & OBD2 M44,S52,M52 Flashes
EMAIL:midnight-tuning@rogers.com
http://www.facebook.com/Midnight.Tuning.Solutions
Midnight YouTube Channel

Romrog318is

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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2010, 12:13:37 PM »
Quote from: Ryann;91179
Based on my experience 350hp on pump gas for the m42 is unreachable- those are s42 numbers guys. But hey- dynos, threads, let's see them.


this..

the most i have seen out of a boosted M42 was 333 HP
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no more M42