Calling All Gear Heads!

[FL318is]

OK guys its game time!:mad: :mad: :mad:

I need your help and internet diagnostic skills.  I have been reading and posting on a previous thread but I am hoping to get to the botom of this by giving you as much info as I can.

To recap, I have been replacing hoses (intake area/cooling system) and gaskets on my 91 iS.  Thats the good part.  Well, after doing the intake manifold gasket and the oil filter housing gasket and o ring, t-stat we put it back together.

The car started immediately, BUT thats when the infamous clicking noise started.  The noise would vary in intensity but never went away.  Now remember that noise was not there before.  Not even slightly.  So I removed the lower oil pan and found 3 bolts that must have been in the pan long enough to cause thread imprints.

Heres the questions:

1)  Is it likely that those bolts could have "miraculously" appeared in the oil pan, gotten stuck under or in the oil pump and kept sufficent oil from circulating?

2)  Is is likely that when the oil filter housing gaskets were changed, something could have created a block (debris, gasket fit, etc) and also have restricted the oil flow?

3)  Will an oil pump go out suddenly?

4)  Is this the oil pump
 http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF93&mospid=47305&btnr=11_0504&hg=11&fg=30     ITEM 9 or am I calling it by the wrong name?

I have a new chain tensioner ready to go on if, when we top the oil and cooling system and run it and the noise continues.

I look forward to your replies and solutions.  Thanks guys.

Signed,
"Where is my hammer?"

[bmwman91]

1) No, there is not enough clearance between the sump and pan bottom for them to get in.
2) Nah, something would have plugged up & there would have been an engine failure.
3) Haha, yes.  Learned that one the hard way.
4) Item 9 is the inlet sump.  Item 2 is the actual pump...just a simple crankshaft-driven positive-displacement pump.

You can give the tensioner a try.  If there has been too much wear on the system, there will still be a grinding noise.  If it is just a ticking, you are probably OK.  The M42 is just kinda noisy.

Oh and installing the tensioner...somewhere it sats to just pop it in still compressed and revv the engine to 3500RPM until it releases.  BAD idea.  Running the motor with no tensioning on the chain for a few seconds is enough to shatter bearing shells.  It is a little bit of a pain, but squeeze it by hand to release the internal locking ring (hold on tight, you do not want the parts flying out!).  Just muscle the released tensioner piston in from there.  Then it is good to go from the start.  That is how I have done it on the past couple cars.

If it is still making really bad noises, let us know.  I guess a PN list for the rebuild would be next.

[FL318is]

I really appreciate the help.  Obviously I could use it.  I just checked on the availibilty of the actual pump and not in stock locally.  I was going to get it just as a potential need.  We still have to place the lower pan gasket on and fill and HOPE for the best.  

The thing that is puzzling me is that before we replaced anything, there was NO noise.  

Thanks for the tensioner install gude lines.  I am the one who would have parts shooting through the garage.

Wish me luck.

[bmwman91]

Well, don't go running off to buy a new pump too soon.  Replacing it requires the removal of the entire timing case.  Reinstalling it CAn be done w/o pulling the head, but it is very tricky and, well, I take no responsibility for blown profile gaskets later on :p .  If you are gonna do the pump, you may as well do the whole timing assembly since it comes out in the process.  I removed the UPPER oil pan as well, and I think it MIGHT be possible to get the timing case out without removing it.  Removing the UPPER one requires an engine hoist to clear the crossmember.  If you just undo all the bolts and it is loose, you might be able to shimmy the timing case in/out.  I recommend pulling it anyway though to check for debris.

Sounds like it is probably just a bad tensioner, and likely the timing parts are all worn out from having a bad tensioner in there for a while.  I'd say expect to spend another ~$400 on timing case bits.  Don't worry about the oil pump.  Just clear the pan of junk.  The pump is either working 100%, or not at all.

Oh, and be SURE to mark the cam & crank positions REALLY well just in case stuff moves.  I suggest making a holding tool for the cams, and if you have a stock flywheel you can stick an M8 x 60 or longer bolt into a port in the back of the block that will fit into a groove on the flywheel & locate it.  Just beware...there is noe groove on each side, and it is possible to get the crank 180 degrees off from the cams (found that one out the hard way, too!).

[Febi Guibo]

nb: the following advice covers an abnormal amount of timing chain noise...

on my original engine (which was short a few upper oil pan bolts btw) the timing chain noise was somewhat intermittent... trying to figure out 'what made it start' tends to be a diagnostic dead end... just try to get it to stop! I'm sort of kidding...

re: the oil pump, it's a pretty small inlet and like any pump type thing, if you had the housing cover off, there may be some air in there and the pump can very occaisionally lose prime or take a bit of time to get it fully juiced.  

as a rough rule of thumb, the timing chain noise is caused when the tensioner doesn't have enough oil pressure to push the rail out. so check any possible leak that could be eroding oil pressure; pan gaskets, housing gasket, sender plugs, filter cap etc.

if those check out and you still get the noise (an abnormal, diesel lawnmower noise) and nothing is leaking, and your oil light is off), try removing the oil filter housing cover, get a funnel and little hose, and stuff some 50 weight oil in there until any air bubbles get pushed out and see if that re-primes the oil pump. hopefully the tensioner will get back to work after that.

[FL318is]

...you guys drove to Florida.  LOL  It all sounds pretty straight forward.  I did not know the oil pump could loose prime

if you had the housing cover off  We did have the oil filter housing off, is that what you are referencing?


as a rough rule of thumb, the timing chain noise is caused when the tensioner doesn't have enough oil pressure to push the rail out. so check any possible leak that could be eroding oil pressure; pan gaskets, housing gasket, sender plugs, filter cap etc.

This (TRIGGER CONTACT  # 12 14 1 721 861) was temporarily disconnected and reconnected.  Could this piece cause a pressure drop?  Does this housing area where this contact rests need to topped with oil or will it naturally flow into from the system?
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF93&mospid=47305&btnr=11_2683&hg=11&fg=10


the noise (an abnormal, diesel lawnmower noise)  
This would be a good description.

I removed the UPPER oil pan as well, and I think it MIGHT be possible to get the timing case out without removing it.

We actually are in process of replacing the pan gasket.  Thats a monster!

Just clear the pan of junk. The pump is either working 100%, or not at all.

That sounds good. I really had no debris in the pan, just the bolts.


Oh, and be SURE to mark the cam & crank positions REALLY well just in case stuff moves. I suggest making a holding tool for the cams, and if you have a stock flywheel you can stick an M8 x 60 or longer bolt into a port in the back of the block that will fit into a groove on the flywheel & locate it. Just beware...there is noe groove on each side, and it is possible to get the crank 180 degrees off from the cams (found that one out the hard way, too!).

Now this is where I get real lost.   Are you saying that this applies to when I work on or with the timing case only?  So far I have only removed the valve cover and painted it.  That is as close as I have come to seeing the cams.  One thing for sure is I am learning.

Again, my thanks to you guys.  I hope you understand how much this is helping.

Gary

[Febi Guibo]

I am going out on a limb here, but as soon as you replace the pan gaskets, your problem will be solved.

also, 'housing' = the oil filler housing

the sensor you reference on the upper part of the timing case isn't the problem, unless it's obviously leaking.

[FL318is]

I am going out on a limb here, but as soon as you replace the pan gaskets, your problem will be solved.

also, 'housing' = the oil filler housing

the sensor you reference on the upper part of the timing case isn't the problem, unless it's obviously leaking.

Sensor is not leaking.  If I replace the chain tensioner would that require any oil to be placed through the opening first?

[Febi Guibo]

no... strictly speaking... the tensioner FILLS with oil and expands, pushing the timing chain rail out... any oil you put in will simply drip down into the timing case (not the end of the world, but it won't fill the tensioner).

[FL318is]

If all goes well I wil be on the road tonight.

[bmwman91]

Marking the positions of the cams/crank ONLY applies if you are going to be removing the timing chain.  You need to keep them all in-phase.  That is the chain's job (in a strict sense).

I'd do a VERY thorough check of the timing chain & cam gears after replacing the gaskets/tensioner.  Even if that makes the noise go away.  When the chain is loose, it slaps around and can be damaged.  Do a very thorough inspection ov every roller, rotating each one all the way around looking for cracks.  Might take like 2 hours, but trust me, it is a lot faster than letting I broken one go!

[FL318is]

Marking the positions of the cams/crank ONLY applies if you are going to be removing the timing chain.  You need to keep them all in-phase.  That is the chain's job (in a strict sense).

I'd do a VERY thorough check of the timing chain & cam gears after replacing the gaskets/tensioner.  Even if that makes the noise go away.  When the chain is loose, it slaps around and can be damaged.  Do a very thorough inspection ov every roller, rotating each one all the way around looking for cracks.  Might take like 2 hours, but trust me, it is a lot faster than letting I broken one go!

When I inspect basically I would be looking for loose parts,wear and cracks?
Most likely cracks will appear where?

[bmwman91]

Cracks & missing pieces.  You will be looking on the round rollers that the gear teeth grab.

[D. Clay]

If you suspect it's the tensioner and it's intermittent, put 50 weight oil in it. Mine was at a point once where it would quit right after an oil change and then come back. Multi weight oils have "extenders" to mimic other weights. If the extender goes upward toward the 30 of 10W-30 the oil will get thinner as it breaks down. Extenders are some of the first things to go as oil additives break down.

[FL318is]

Heres the good news!!!!!

The filter housing gasket had folded over the check valve opening on install.  Replaced that gasket and BINGO!  It will tick for about 2-4 seconds on start up but after that, good to go!

Thanks to everyone for the GREAT help. You saved us alot of detective work.  I am buying the beirs, just let me know when.