Author Topic: help me decide!!!!  (Read 10371 times)

Euro Nation

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help me decide!!!!
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2006, 01:19:09 AM »
I can understand the points made above, but I'm still going to ramble a bit here because it's a good, friendly discussion and I haven't had one of those in BMW land yet.

We've done stroked and overbored VW engines in the past and the results never really show a gain that warranted the cost of the parts to do them. M42 cams and crankshafts are REALLY expensive compared to the parts I'm used to so the HP/$ figure still seems insane.

[rant]
The thing that sets them apart is you guys are stroking from 84mm to 88mm on a 140mm rod (if you do in fact maintain M42 rod length). VW guys are going from 86.4 or 92.8mm to 95.5mm on a 144 rod. The resulting 1.50/1 rod stroke ratio gives you an engine with so much rod angularity it's trying to force the piston out the SIDE of the bore. We tried to tune one a customer built, 2.1L 16v (83.5x95.5, 144mm rods, 11.5:1, fully built). The result was a mechanical limit of 6500rpm caused by rod angularity above which the engine simply did not want to spin regardless of the JE pistons and Pauter rods, ITBs and 288 degree cams that were inside it. The ITBs were a waste because I had tuned their harmonic length to 7000rpm and had to advance the hell out of the cams to bring the opperative range down to a number the bottom end could spin. It made more power on stock cams. This engine eventually scored a cylinder wall and piston from its heavy side loading. Good riddance to a motor that never should have been built.
[/rant]

As for the turbo reliability/milage misconceptions. I've thrown boost at engines with 190K miles on them because... well... we didn't care. It's still daily driving. I've also seen engine surpass 110K with a turbo on them the whole time... turbo is still good, engine is still good, everything works as it's supposed to, nothing has been replaced. Milage? How about 28mpg from a 1.8L 16v that makes 220hp and 230ft/lbs? The beauty of turbocharging is that it's a docile little 1.8l with low compression that doesn't use much fuel... until you stand on it.

The things that make an engine a pleasure to drive on the street just happen to be the things that make them excellent for turbocharging. IE: mild compression, mild camshafts, small ports. The high compression, big cams and large ports associated with N/A tuned vehicles are harsh on daily driving. Pure and simple, you can make more power, maintain more drivability, milage and much of your reliability with forced induction.

The only problems I've had with street turbo engines are:
- Big injectors don't like to idle smooth... like BIG... like 500cc+ but now we're into 300hp 4cyl parts. You need almost as much injector for a 220hp N/A motor as you do a 220hp turbo motor, so this isn't specific to turbocharging
- Harsh clutches. Once again a bi-product of massive power and something you have to deal with either way.
- Drivetrain failures from massive power numbers :D Once again, not specific to turbocharging.

I've built and daily driven both fully tuned N/A (2L 16v Rabbit on ITBs with Megasquirt) and turbocharged (a host of turbo VW 16vs) cars. I enjoy both.

If I were to suggest anything it would be to put youself in the situation to drive or at least ride in a couple cars with both of the above options. Oh... and contact Importperformanceparts.net when you need parts, they should be able to hook it up on pistons.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 02:31:34 AM by Euro Nation »
-Aaron
\'91 318i - Dead and gone
http://www.euronationvw.com
I own VWs... lots of them.

nickmpower

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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2006, 03:11:36 PM »
i wonder if the stock rods could be used? both if they are strong enough and short enough. I seem to remember MM saying that they use longer rods, but i dont know how that would be possible. I just seems like the pistons would have to be really thin? what do you guys think?

nickmpower

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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2006, 05:25:18 PM »
It seems that the pistons would a pin hight of about 8mm shorter, which seems like it may be too much?

tim_s

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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2006, 06:54:22 PM »
no worries with the rambling, just a few quickies from me, don't want to get into rambling

-stroke increase wasnt 84 to 88, was 81 to 88.

-rod ratio is not a concern, i run less angle on the rods than the e36 m3 which revs strongly all the way to 8k (yeah i know its a six but still). there's plenty of other good fours out there running more worrying rod ratios than me.

-i think you miss the point about turbos and reliability etc. I'm saying that by rebuilding my engine i got a more reliable engine, for the money i spent on my setup i couldn't have turbo'd and rebuilt as this would have cost more, i could have only turbo'd a 15 yr+ old engine with standard internals - considering its a daily, this seemed dumb.
turbos will inevitably have some negative impact on reliability, its just a question of how much, but of course if done right can still be uber reliable.

-as for mpg, i get over 35mpg on motorway runs like i've done today at 80-90mph, car should produce near 200bhp. this would be v difficult to achieve with a turbo esp with my diff ratio etc.

2.1 200bhp, 175ft/lbs 318is
E46 330ci daily

Euro Nation

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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2006, 07:53:36 PM »
Quote from: tim_s
-stroke increase wasnt 84 to 88, was 81 to 88.


Half asleep when I wrote it... thanks for the correction

Quote

-rod ratio is not a concern, i run less angle on the rods than the e36 m3 which revs strongly all the way to 8k (yeah i know its a six but still). there's plenty of other good fours out there running more worrying rod ratios than me.


My point exactly. I'm saying that in VW world where I'm from stroking gets scary rod ratios. M42s however are still pretty good to go at these strokes.


Quote

-i think you miss the point about turbos and reliability etc. I'm saying that by rebuilding my engine i got a more reliable engine, for the money i spent on my setup i couldn't have turbo'd and rebuilt as this would have cost more, i could have only turbo'd a 15 yr+ old engine with standard internals - considering its a daily, this seemed dumb.
turbos will inevitably have some negative impact on reliability, its just a question of how much, but of course if done right can still be uber reliable.


Once again, I think we're arguing the same point. High revs will have a negative effect on reliabilty at a point as well. It's hard to get more power and more reliability no matter how you go. If you're engine weren't in need of a rebuilt when you got the thirst for more power would you have gone the other way?

Quote
-as for mpg, i get over 35mpg on motorway runs like i've done today at 80-90mph, car should produce near 200bhp. this would be v difficult to achieve with a turbo esp with my diff ratio etc.


I can get to 35mpg if I try harder :D Less fuel, more timing... but yeah... impressive numbers. The 28mpg was mixed driving with plenty of spirited accelerations.

I'm interested in seeing a dyno chart from your car. I'm not ignorant enough to think that there's one school of tuning. I have some N/A projects in the corner of my shop right now... some goofy as hell, some pretty basic. The funnest cars I've driven have been all motor, while the highest power numbers have come from turbo motors. I enjoy the "free spirited revving" and response from N/A... but I can't resist the brutal torque of F/I .I like the idea of a hardcore N/A E30 4cyl that isn't an S14 swap. I just like the idea of boost better for my application

If I make it to 250whp with a stock longblock M42 you owe me lunch ;)
-Aaron
\'91 318i - Dead and gone
http://www.euronationvw.com
I own VWs... lots of them.

Febi Guibo

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« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2006, 08:21:25 PM »
on a non-technical note... there are kinda two separate discussions:

- turbo vs. n/a
- is it worth it to build up an M42

I don't think anybody could knock the benefits of a turbo, it's a great way to go and an ideal project...

But re: a built-up M42, the idea I followed was basically: an M42 is more or less 2/3rds of an S50, and the E30 is more or less (well, more) than 2/3rds the weight of an E36 M3.

So, you built up an M42 to S50 parameters, you'd be looking at performance (roughly) comparable to an E36 M3, with the same fun-loving driving experience of an E30 318is, plus good gas mileage. It runs great, has no quirks, and isn't a 'project'. In my case, I also got a zero miles engine with brand new internals.

again, not for everybody, but not a decent situation, esp comparing the price of a new, stock engine + shipping + installation.

Having said that... I saw a pretty decent looking 1995 E36 M3 w/reasonable miles for sale for like, $7500 the other day. arrrrgh! temptation is a bitch!

anyway... we're waiting for a really well documented M42 turbo project... hell, if it works out I'll be the first to order new rods!!
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StreetSpec_iS

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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2006, 09:29:27 PM »
another side note that can be part of the discussion is legality. Although no applicable to everyone, it can be an argument for some of us.

i can not legally turbo or supercharge a car that wasn't produced as an FI engine from the factory.

so, for me, if i get pulled over by the coppers, and they lift the bonnet, i'm pretty sure even the more daft cops out there will notice a big turbo hanging off the side of my block. Tha would render me a nice Defect sticker.

On the other hand, although it is technically illegal to modify engines internally, a modified NA motor, apart from such items as ITBs etc, is generally pretty hard to pick to the naked eye. Hell, even ITBs would probably be overlooked by most if the install looked clean enough.

Therefore, its really a no-brainer. Although I'd love to build an FI m42, it is safer to go NA, and still have a fun car.
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tim_s

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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2006, 04:40:37 AM »
Interesting thread this :)
Didn't read yours correctly about the rod ratios, didn't realise you were just applying it to veedubs and not us, was getting all defensive there!
For the figures you can get with turbo M42s, I don't doubt you could get 250whp no probs - its been done, I know of one fairly tame turbo e30 m42 on standard internals with over 200bhp at the flywheel on a T25 iirc, and another more involved e36 m42 turbo with somewhere around 270rwhp iirc, can't remember what turbo.
I totally think a turbo m42 is a great idea, it just wasn't for me with this car.
Mainly to this thread I just thought I'd stick up for the NA route and redress this comment
Quote
I really really don't want to step on any toes here but I still haven't heard any rave reviews of peoples 2.1L engines. While no one is talking them down I think it may be because they're embarrased at the hp-gain/$$$ ratio they had at the end of the project
as in my case, its clearly not true!
btw my engine didn't need a rebuild per se, it had done 115k and was putting out average figures on the rollers etc.
I guess I built the engine because the engine was 15 years old, I wanted more performance, so decided to start with the guts of the engine - I've extracted lots of power from elderly dub engines in the past only to have to inevitably rebuild at some stage, so I decided to start from the guts of the engine and work outwards. I bench built the engine and installed it on a wkend - minimal fuss, totally reliable etc.
I guess the time that the car would be off the road was another consideration!
look forward to seeing some more m42 turbos. I'll see if I can convince the chap I know over here in the UK to join up and tell us about his car.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 04:45:18 AM by tim_s »

2.1 200bhp, 175ft/lbs 318is
E46 330ci daily

nickmpower

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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2006, 01:44:07 PM »
so waht do you guys think? should i just have my machinest get me some pistons and maybe rods or should i get them from MM? MM are expensive but the non interference setup would be nice considering thats what put me in this position

idk maybe i should jsut go for the m44 crank and some custom pistons. seems like that would be around 6 ro 800 total. as apposed to like 2500 for the m47 crank rods and pistons? i dunno

stock           =                      1796cc
m42 crank and 87mm pistons = 1926cc
m44 crank and 87mm pistons = 1986cc
m47 crank and 87mm pistons = 2093cc  maybe money can be saved here by using e36 m3 rods? or do you guys think stock could work? i could have sworn the guy on bimmer forums used the stock rods. that would make this much more cost effective i think

hmmmm, i'd like to save money but i wonder if i'd miss not having gotten the m47 crank later on down the road?

edit agian, IDK waht i was thinking, but the pistons would only need to be about 4.02mm shorter which means a custom piston could easlily be used with the stock rods. Now the question is would i want stroger lighter, maybe a tad longer rods?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 06:51:24 PM by nickmpower »

nickmpower

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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2006, 01:55:57 PM »
here is a list i'll be sending to bma, I have a few more things to add but if im missing anything engine related let me know

11311247160    timing chain
11211247338   crank sprocket
07119951480   key
(2 of these) 11311721887  cam sprocket
11311247470   left guide rail
07119919629   screw for guide rail
11311721419   bottom guide
11311727569   deflection wheel
11311727342   tensioner rail
11311721641   top guide

11411715116   oil pickup gasket
11421709800   filter housing gasket
11421709513   filter housing o ring

11141247849   profile gasket
11141734422 timing case gasket

11531714738   coolant pipe
11531709157 o-ring

11141432240   rear main seal gasket
11142249533   rear main seal

11131739592  upper pan gasket
11131709815   lower pan gasket

11141439570 front main seal

11611717761 upper intake manifold
11611734684   lower intake manifold

(10 of these) 11111735525   main cap bolts
(8 of these) 11241744319   con rod bolt

11141721919   upper timing case gasket
11141721802   lower timing case gasket
12141727220   cam sensor o-ring

11212247514   M47 crank
11141714611   oil pump

11121721939   head bolts
11121433951 oversize M44 headgasket

nickmpower

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« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2006, 12:52:16 PM »
crank ordered, rod and piston opinions anyone?

Febi Guibo

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« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2006, 12:59:09 PM »
well, if I remember correctly (and I seldom do), the original guy who did the M47 crank mod used S50 pistons and stock rods, and I think a taller headgasket... maybe a search on bf.c ?
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nickmpower

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« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2006, 01:33:15 PM »
yeah i know that, but he ground almost 4mm off of the top of the piston, which is mad sketch in my opinion.

I know i could just my my machiniest get me some custom pistons and use them with my stock rods, but i wondering if pistons and rods from MM might be worth it do to the lighter weight, slightly longer rods, and piston design advantages

Euro Nation

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« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2006, 07:13:48 PM »
I've put in my $0.02. If you still think paying MM $900 for pistons is a good idea then you do that.
-Aaron
\'91 318i - Dead and gone
http://www.euronationvw.com
I own VWs... lots of them.

nickmpower

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« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2006, 07:17:10 PM »
well i'll see if my machinest thinks he can get the non interference pistons rigth, keep in mind if they came stock i wouldnt be in the position i am now. What about longer lighter rods because of the increased stroke?