M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: tglaze on January 17, 2009, 11:45:43 PM
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so i had been wondering about what sort of power i could get out of a stock m42 if properly set-up and tuned and without modifying/deleting/re-routing/relocating any thing if at all possible. this is my own personal car and started working on it little at a time as a had time in-between working on actual paying customer's cars. I posted up arigionally over on e30 tech but realized it would be more usefull and appreciated over here probably.
In order to not have to move/delete/change origional components, i decided the only way to do that would be to try and make the setup bottom mount. I havnt seen one done on an e30 so i was even more excited to take on the challenge. oh, and did i mention i plan on retaining the a/c as well??
motor was pullled, parts were cleaned as needed, all new bearing, seals, timing chain components. new stock head gasket and bolts, and thats about it.
turrbo is a garrett gt2871r with origional 12psi internal setup.
the pics should explain the rest.
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0052.jpg)
very inexpensive and efficient way to run vaccum lines, looks nice in the engine bay as well
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0047.jpg)
might as well as some cooling capacity/efficiency
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0046.jpg)
clean parts
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/026.jpg)
strpped down
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/027.jpg)
back together
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/032.jpg)
FMIC had to remove aux/ a/c condenser fan :( plan to add smaller one when it warms up
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/050.jpg)
bottom mount log manifold
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0054.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0055.jpg)
very tight in there....
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0097.jpg)
managed to fit a 3" intake all the way to the turbo. used DEI intake sleave to keep the intake at or near ambient temp and wrapped the manifold to help keep temps down
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0102.jpg)
intake shoe-horned in there
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0103.jpg)
origional coils and windshield washer resevior put back in factory locations un-modified
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0104.jpg)
MS PnP for m42
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0003.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/100_0040.jpg)
update later when I get more done...
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(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/109.jpg)
turbo outlet barely sqeaks by a/c, motor mount, subframe and steering rack
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/102.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/103.jpg)
even the belly pan still fits un-modified
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/108.jpg)
intercooler ish all done
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/112.jpg)
on tap....
swap diff
rebuild driveshaft
swap fuel pump
finish downpipe and exhaust
install guages and wideband
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huge compliments!
all fit great there with that short manifold.
don't complain about space because in my e36 it's really a more tight fit than your, and I'm doing all possible to not remove A/C compressor or anything... ;)
waiting for the MS installation details / maps ;)
PS: great turbo :D
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thanks.
on the e36 the subframe is further forward so there is a bit more room actually in the turbo area if you do a bottom mount.. it is a bit tighter on the fender side though.
the obx manifold will work for you and you should be able to get around your a/c. witht he intake. i actually have one and it is quite nice. they are made from what looks like schedule 10 stainless and it comes with a downpipe. i was hoping to be able to use it slightly modified or something on the e30 but that pesky subframe is right there in the way. so, needless to say, its available.
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thanks.
on the e36 the subframe is further forward so there is a bit more room actually in the turbo area if you do a bottom mount.. it is a bit tighter on the fender side though.
the obx manifold will work for you and you should be able to get around your a/c. witht he intake. i actually have one and it is quite nice. they are made from what looks like schedule 10 stainless and it comes with a downpipe. i was hoping to be able to use it slightly modified or something on the e30 but that pesky subframe is right there in the way. so, needless to say, its available.
I have already the manifold, a great bullet proof Neukin. Last week I fitted it in the car only to see how it would fit with my T3 60 trim turbo, and there is not so much room because of the engine mount, and A/C compressor is at 4-5 inches from the inlet of the turbo;) I'm fighting to have the charge pipe over the subframe so I need to do a lot of pipe work :)
The only fucking error I made was to choice the manifold for internal wastegate... I will need to do a custom actuator bracket, so some fab would be required.
I think that in the next 15days/1month I should have it running ;)
- what injectors you'll use with the MS?
- what size is the elbow reducer on the Throttle body side? is a normal 3.5"?
you have a really clean engine bay now :cool:
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ya, 3.5" on the throttle body.
i'm running 72lb/hr injectors. they are overkill, but i had them laying around and someday i will require that much from them.
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just a thought from experiance on the location of your turbo oil return line that will not work you will blow your oil seals on the turbo. you have to return oil above your oil level you cant have any pressure on your turbo return. i have tried that same spot on the pan and things didnt work out to well.
Other then that looks nice great build.
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just a thought from experiance on the location of your turbo oil return line that will not work you will blow your oil seals on the turbo. you have to return oil above your oil level you cant have any pressure on your turbo return. i have tried that same spot on the pan and things didnt work out to well.
Other then that looks nice great build.
i have definately had that in mind. that entire side of the oil pan is filled with oil, did you wrap it around to the other side? also, where was your turbo mounted? i figure that the turbo is still higher than the oil level and it should still drain ok, simple siphon effect.
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nece build :)
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Where did you get that silicone intake boot?
I need one just like it.
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we sell them. like $26 i think
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I need one thats exactly like the stock intake boot as far as angle goes and will match up to the afm.
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ok, i think i have an m42 car coming in tomorrow so i'll check it out and see what size will work best for you. probably 3.5-3.0. i think the afm is actually like 2.75 but that reducer doesnt exist so you have to most likely use 3.5-3.0. i'll test fit it tomorrow though
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update:
got the diff swapped today and rebuilt the driveshaft.
installed 88 and newer style m20 coolant expansion tank to work with the 6 cyl. aluminum radiator i am using.
also found a hose at napa to work with that radiator to the m42 thermostat housing.
made the downpipe as well
just a couple more days...
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Is that log turbo mani custom made or did you buy it somewhere?
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i made it. i could make more...
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ok, i think i have an m42 car coming in tomorrow so i'll check it out and see what size will work best for you. probably 3.5-3.0. i think the afm is actually like 2.75 but that reducer doesnt exist so you have to most likely use 3.5-3.0. i'll test fit it tomorrow though
If anything make it to 2.5 so I can heat it and stretch it over the AFM maybe?
Much appreciated!
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I would be interested in that hose also. Lets us know how it's going.
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i made it. i could make more...
It quite simple, but is it realy good (I mean style)?`
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its not the best for overall flow and efficiency, but it will be fine for propably up to about 300whp. most importantly it works for my goal of not having to remove or modify a/c and other factory components and work as a bottom mount setup
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i have definately had that in mind. that entire side of the oil pan is filled with oil, did you wrap it around to the other side? also, where was your turbo mounted? i figure that the turbo is still higher than the oil level and it should still drain ok, simple siphon effect.
i have a top mount and i ran my return to the front timing cover its super close to the pwr steering belt but it works just fine. your pretty much have to get the line just over the max mark on the dipstick thats what i used for a referance.
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it still seems like it should drain ok as long as the turbo is higher than the oil level and it has a consistant downward slope so it cant pool anywhere along the way. just like if you stuck a funnel in a bucket and poored oil into it, it doesnt matter if you have the bottom of the funnel in or out of the fluid in the bucket, it will still flow into it as long as the top of the funnel is exposed and above the oil level in the bucket...
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So about that boot...
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sorry, didnt have a stock car come by today to confirm the size to use with that stock afm. i'm nearly positive it is 2.75" and it is nearly impossible to stretch a silicone hose so i'm gonna stick with going with the 3" and just clamping it on there. i'm pretty sure i have an orifgional afm in my room of spare parts, just a matter of diggin through there to find it. i'll def get something figured out tomorrow for you guys.
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Thanks!
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it still seems like it should drain ok as long as the turbo is higher than the oil level and it has a consistant downward slope so it cant pool anywhere along the way. just like if you stuck a funnel in a bucket and poored oil into it, it doesnt matter if you have the bottom of the funnel in or out of the fluid in the bucket, it will still flow into it as long as the top of the funnel is exposed and above the oil level in the bucket...
well try it out i did it how you have it and it didnt work the turbo return is supposed to be free flowing you cant have pressure in the return line. that is also why the return line is supposed to be double the size of the feed if not bigger.
Where did you put your return Danny??
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I drilled three holes in the pan and bolted another oil drain type thing from another turbo to the pan.
I'll take pictures tomorrow.
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whats the total cost of the turbo build you figure? all parts...no labour.
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glaze, where'd u get the MS plug n play from? You custom make it or is that widely available now? I knew it could be custom made... but that one looks pretty damn good.
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whats the total cost of the turbo build you figure? all parts...no labour.
i had several of the parts hanging around left over from other builds. I made the manifold and built the megasquirt. I also have direct wholesale accounts with everyone that i order parts from so what it cost me and what it might cost someone else is quite different.
so i'd estimate somewhere around $1500 would be somewhere in the middle
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glaze, where'd u get the MS plug n play from? You custom make it or is that widely available now? I knew it could be custom made... but that one looks pretty damn good.
I build the megasquirts here..
heres another item on the car i forgot to mention. we do the m20 lightenbed flywheels and swap the ring gears so they are PnP for m42 as well. threw this in with a stage 3 m20 clutch.
might tack on a few extra bucks to the build for this setup as well.
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/002.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/001.jpg)
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oh ya, and that elbow deal..I was able to cram a 2.5" on the stock AFM but it wasnt easy. 3.0" however is wayy to big so you kinda gotta make the 2,5 work. just spit on it and use a thin little flathead screwdriver or something to sorta work it on as you push down. two peaple will make it easier too.
so, the official size to go from the stock AFM to the TB is 3.5" - 2.5". now the other question at hand is whether to use a 90^ or a 45^ because the angle is somewhere in-between. I would say its closer to a 90 if anything. I imagine most of you guys running the stock afm dont still have it mounted in the origional location so that probably doesnt matter anyways.
there is one more issue at hand. the hose that comes off the factory elbow that goes to the idle control valve will have to be sourced from somewhere else. you could use the barbed fitting that the valve cover breather hose goes to and run that to the idle control valve. that hose needs to get vented to atmosphere anyways to so you dont boost the crankcase so that shouldn't be a problem anyways.
so price on the 3.5 - 2.5 90^ elbow is $29 shipped
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I'll be in contact.
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Those Flywheels look nice. What's the weight on them?
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we typically do them at about 12lbs. This is the best for a street car to keep a decent level of drivability. we can do them lighter, but i wouldnt recommend it with an m42. if its going on an m20 we can go another pound or two less.
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got some stuff done.
installed the catch can and m20 coolant expansion tank. made the down pipe and full exhaust.
just need to build my MSQ file and tune, tune, and tune some more
some new pics
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/034.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/035.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/030.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/031.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/032-1.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/033.jpg)
downpipe and exhaust are 3" fully mandrel bent with magnaflow resonator and muffler
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/036.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/037.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/038.jpg)
noticed what this label on the front core support actually said, thought it was pretty funny
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/041.jpg)
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Nice work, love the OE sticker in the last pic, albiet out of focus....
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nice exhaust how does it sound pretty loud what kinda muffler did you use??
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its a magnaflow resonator and muffler. havnt fired it up yet, still have to build my msq file. shouldnt be too loud. i'll post a sound clip when i get it going as well as a dyno video and what not
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got it fired up today. here is a link to the first start video. it sounds epic, the video doesnt do it justice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJiXWN5bQY4
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thats damn clean lookin! did you do anything to lower CR(thicker head gasket, etc,) or is it all stock? how much would you say a build like this would cost both time and moneywise? and most importantly....how much hp are you expecting to get out of it?
-thanks, kevin
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scratch the cost question i didnt see that there was a 2nd page til after posting!
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compression and head gasket are both totally stock. i wanna find their limits and then i will throw on a cometic gasket and some arp studs and turn it up a bit more. i think with proper tuning, it should be able to handle about 12psi in stock form. that should be around 275hp at the crank, around 240 at the wheels i suppose.
we'll find out today possibly if i can get some time to do some tuning on the dyno.
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ok cool
well if all is successful, i may be interested in one if you can get that much power out of it! i am puttin my m42 in a 1974 bmw 2002, so it'll be a tight fit. how much would you sell em for if you do decide to make some more? how much boost will you be run if you put in the new head gasket?
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so..i took the car out this morning and did some freeway tuning. this thing is pretty sick. its making about 10.5psi with no pinging once we got the afr's tuned right. put about 45 miles on it, so far so good. I'm in love
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by "interested in one" i was referring to that manifold you made! sorry for the vagueness
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thats what i figured. we'll see how it all goes with this one.
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so..i took the car out this morning and did some freeway tuning. this thing is pretty sick. its making about 10.5psi with no pinging once we got the afr's tuned right. put about 45 miles on it, so far so good. I'm in love
agreed ive had mine at 14 and its even more fun but then it broke. definatly interested in seeing some dyno numbers at 10.5psi.
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we'll get those by the end of the week. i want to tune it better on the street before i finish it on the dyno. all production stops in the shop when we run it because its so damb loud as well as interesting to see what happens. especially since its my own car and not getting payed to basically shut down the shop for as long as it takes. soon enough.
sucks we have such crappy gas in cali. it was pinging a bit with pretty conservative timing and fuel. had to remove even more timing to keep it safe. i might be doing that cometic gasket sooner than i thought because i want more power..
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Are you going to start manufacturing turbo components as well? Maybe for the e36? :D
How about that strut bar? Available for e36?
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we can manufacture just about anything. what you have in mind?
we can do a strut bar for the e36 318i that is the same style as the one on mine for you. they are $220 for steel or $255 for aluminum(plus shipping). if you get some guys together that may want some i'll be happy to do them for a bit less. they are about the most functional and well built out there.
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Cool. I'll ask some people around, but I have to get out of Timeout from Bimmerforums. A lot of those guys ask about strut braces for the M42.
As for the manufacturing, the turbo manifolds available are 600 bucks. Can you beat that? What about pressure capabilities?
I was also referring to the plumbing and exhaust.
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sucks we have such crappy gas in cali. it was pinging a bit with pretty conservative timing and fuel. had to remove even more timing to keep it safe. i might be doing that cometic gasket sooner than i thought because i want more power..
i know all about that go easy on it. i got over excited and that was the end of a couple valves.
ive done compression lowering with the cometic gasket and it never really worked. i cracked 2 heads and burned a couple valves on the last try with the gaskets. but it may also vary on how thick you go i used the .140" wouldnt recommend it, major oil leaks from the profile gasket. I never tried with stock thickness though or a bit thicker maybe thats the trick to it but that all depends on how much boost you want to run 10psi is fun but why not have more.
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Cool. I'll ask some people around, but I have to get out of Timeout from Bimmerforums. A lot of those guys ask about strut braces for the M42.
As for the manufacturing, the turbo manifolds available are 600 bucks. Can you beat that? What about pressure capabilities?
I was also referring to the plumbing and exhaust.
the best bet for an e36 is the obx manifold. we are direct with them and i can get you a great deal on one. i actually grabbed one to see if a could get it to work on the e30, but the subframe sits too far back and the turbo couldnt fit in there. they are very good quality, made form schedule 10 stainless and come with a down pipe.
check it out..
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j98/nuniroche/11062e.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bimmerforums.co.uk/forum/f80/walking-thru-a-turbo-setup-m42-on-e36-t322/&usg=__OFIN0Zi21eF4crl5JmY86K88SxQ=&h=600&w=800&sz=51&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=6RwxnPTZZ1FKCM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dobx%2Bmanifold%2Bbmw%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
i could get you a bit better deal than that..
i can do an e36 exhaust no problem. i do them all the time.
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i know all about that go easy on it. i got over excited and that was the end of a couple valves.
ive done compression lowering with the cometic gasket and it never really worked. i cracked 2 heads and burned a couple valves on the last try with the gaskets. but it may also vary on how thick you go i used the .140" wouldnt recommend it, major oil leaks from the profile gasket. I never tried with stock thickness though or a bit thicker maybe thats the trick to it but that all depends on how much boost you want to run 10psi is fun but why not have more.
tell me about your turb setup, tuning, etc..
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Turbo is t3/t4 .48ar not sure on the compressor side but its about double the size. forged pistons 8.5:1 cr, mls gasket .080" , arp studs. For tunning i have the autronic sm4standalone. theres pics on members profile
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sounds like a nice setup. what about when it broke the first time and you had the thicker gasket on it and what not.
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Well, I'm stocking up on research at the moment. Once I finish the body work on my car, I might buy another to start building the M42, or just buy another M42 engine. I want to rebuild the motor, preferably make it a boosted 2.0 but due to costs, I might keep it at 1.8 and just get the turbo build kit from Vacmotorsports. I'll then do a mild head job, replacing anything thats worn out and then I'll contact you on turbo goodies. In all likelyhood, this project wont take off until the end of the year. But it is something that I'm leaning more towards than swapping a S52.
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Do you sell the MS boxes? Or the service to convert them? That is a really clean looking box you have there and if I can save my self the soldering I definitely will ;) Very nice build glaze, big time props.
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Do you sell the MS boxes? Or the service to convert them? That is a really clean looking box you have there and if I can save my self the soldering I definitely will ;) Very nice build glaze, big time props.
thanks man!
yes, we definately build these units for sale. m42 PnP units start for around $600. extra options can be added. price includes the MS1V3.57.
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Are the MS units plug and play?
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yes sir.
check out the picture on the first page. i build it entirely inside the factory ecu box so there is nothing to mess with. you just have to run a vacuum line to it and figure out how you want to mount it.
i can supply you with a file that should run the car in n/a or boosted form but only enough to move the car and get you started with the tuning process.
I am happy to stand by and provide as much technical support as possible as well.
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Glaze, thanks much for the reply. Will definitely take you up on that MS when time/money permits. Wife already ok'd the project, just a matter of timing now. Have the turbo but will need about $1000 to get everything else I'm guessing according to yours and Danny's build.
Keep updating (you too danny) as these threads are uber helpful.
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how much for all that blue&black intercooler tubing?!
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also, would you be willing to make a downpipe for the '02?
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how much for all that blue&black intercooler tubing?!
also, would you be willing to make a downpipe for the '02?
of course, I would need the car here. dont know where you're located though...
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sounds like a nice setup. what about when it broke the first time and you had the thicker gasket on it and what not.
The First time the engine overheated nd the head cracked in #2 cyl, second time the exhaust valves in #2 burnt and one melted and cracked the head. i dont know why this all kept happening but it did. the damage was always to the head the bottom end was always ok and my engine had about 315k on it before i rebuilt it.
If your thinking about more boost definatly go with forged pistons, steel gasket and head studs its holding up really well and runs 10 times better then with just the gasket and studs. the con rods are apparently good up to 30psi so i wouldnt worrie about those to much.
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You should perfect this and make a Turbo Kit w/PnP MegaSquirts with a good map for stock internals for about 10-12psi. That would be freakin' awesome 'cause I would buy one. :)
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You should perfect this and make a Turbo Kit w/PnP MegaSquirts with a good map for stock internals for about 10-12psi. That would be freakin' awesome 'cause I would buy one. :)
I'll buy 2:D
But for serious, I'll also get one.:cool:
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i'll see what i can do then.
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I demand some in car footage!
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I posted my car in my thread Pierre.
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i dont want to film it in action until i get some rims on it. such a weaksauce stance on it right now. not a good representation of what i do. looks like i may not get them for another month so i may just have to do it anyways..
i also pulled the turbo off to try a different one that wont be here till friday, so maybe after that
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I posted my car in my thread Pierre.
I saw those! Awesome.
Todd: I might need to get a lightweigh clutch and flywheel soon. PM me some prices and we'll be in touch.
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flywheel is $250
stock m20 clutch kit is $195
upgraded clutch options go up from there
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Any updates?
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He's busy building my MegaSquirt ;)
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i should have something to update tomorrow as long as the weather improves. finishing swapping out the turbo, adding coolant lines to the turbo as well.
and like danny said, busy doing real work..
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He's busy building my MegaSquirt ;)
Great to know! I'll wait for details about it next weeks in your thread :D
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so i got my new turbo installed finally and am now running 12psi. this thing is really fun now. it would blow the doors off an e46 m3, or even an e30 with an s50 swap.
the original turbo i first had on this thing was a used gt2871r i had hanging around that was apparetnly on its last leg because it only lasted about one tank of gas. I put on a brand new one and we are back in business. i am seeing full boost at about 3500 rpms and it seems super happy all the way to redline.
i'll post up a video this week and dyno stuff too soon after.
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Awesome Todd! Sounds so sweet! Can't wait for that video.
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So what turbo didya get now?
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same.. gt2871r 52 trim, but with an .86 a/r hot side.
this one .. http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2871R_743347_4.htm
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If you dont mind can you post or pm me what you have your timing set up at just so i can have somthing for referance. i think mines somwhere around 22-26deg under boost cant remember exactly
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viiiiiiiideeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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If you dont mind can you post or pm me what you have your timing set up at just so i can have somthing for referance. i think mines somwhere around 22-26deg under boost cant remember exactly
im running alot less than that. at about 10 psi im running from about 16 at about 3500 to about 21 at redline. thats stock cr. dont have the map on this computer so just a guess.
i believe you have 8:5 cr so you're probably on the right track with what you're using.
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viiiiiiiideeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
was just about to do a video tomorrow when i got to the shop, but got pulled over today on my way to church. turns out my liscence was suspended like 6 months ago for a ticket i completely forgot about. never got the notice in the mail so i forgot about it. almost got the car impounded but the cop had pitty on me because he said i looked like a good guy on my way to church with my daughter in the car and what not so he just followed me home and made sure i parked the car. oh ya, and he gave me a fix-it ticket for modified exhaust. haha
probably gonna have to just keep the low pro and drive my truck till i can get my liscence ish sorted out. i might have one of by buddies drive or something so we can film something with it. i guess i'll have to do that to appease the masses.
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:( no video yet?! ive been checking daily in anticipation!!!! hopefully i will be happy soon! lol. great build though, you will be recieving many of my paychecks this summer for parts!!
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thats what i like to hear.
i am trying to get my liscence and reg all taken car of before i get the car back out on the street. just been laying low driving my truck. in a couple days we should be ready to rock.
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good deal! do you sell all that black and blue tubing? and will the MS map you have work on an m44? and what did you end up deciding about that manifold? gonna make some? :D
any wor d on a dyno yet?
-thanks, kevin
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i can make another manifold, but if you have an m44 i assume that its an e36,
in that case use the obx bottom mount manifold. good heady duty tubular design and very affordable. it also comes with a 3" stainless downpipe with a flex pipe and 3 bolt flange. i can sell you one for around $400 i think. yes, we do sell all the tubing as well.
i'm still holding out on the dyno until i am completely satisfied with the tuning. thats takes time and i dont have alot of it. poking away at all this ish little by little but we'll get it knocked out.
I have found what i beleive to be the limit of the stock head gasket/head bolts. sustained 10-11 psi causes the head to lift and overpressurizes the cooling system causing it to push out coolant and overheat. it seams to be fine with full boost bursts but nothing drawn out over more than a run through the gears or twice maybe.
i will now be swapping the head bolts to arp studs and see if i can make it woulrk with the stock head gasket still. i'm pretty sure that should work just fine for up to close to 1bar boost.
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i actually just have the m44 from a 94 318i, but its going to be dropped in a 1974 2002 so the engine bay will be way more similar to the e30. so that being said, how much would you expect to sell it for if you do end up making one?
and i will be running forged internals and ARP's right off the bat, so i will be able to run quite a bit more boost, but im interested to see what the baseline is with around 10psi, so i can know a little what to expect
and also, do you think the MS would work as a starting point on the m44 as well or will i have to get a completely new map?
EDIT: Im dumb, a 1994 is still an m42!
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it will definately work. the timing will likely be higher for your set-up as i imagine you will be running slightly lower compression at least.
the manifold will not be efficient at much higher boost levels that what i am running now. i would highly recommend fabbing a legit tubular manifold.
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ok, so heres a little burn out video from ealier today. sound isnt that great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l_sccqEF_8
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That was money Todd! Now we need a in car video. For shitty sound, it still sounds good.
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+1 on in-car! Shit's awesome Todd!
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Get in-car and drive-by vids ASAP!!
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What are you using for a fuel pump in your car? im running out of fuel on 10.5psi in high rpms.
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i use these on just about all the performance projects i do. have one in our supercharged s50, m20 stroker, m20 turbo, and my m42 turbo.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/255-LPH-FUEL-PUMP-BMW-M3-E30-E36-E46-320-325-i-318-330i_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1171Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem280314783421QQitemZ280314783421QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
What are you using for a fuel pump in your car? im running out of fuel on 10.5psi in high rpms.
what size injectors you using?
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I'm using the Bosch style green top Im pretty sure there 42lb
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they are probably 30lbers. you have probably maxed them out. maybe increase your fuel pressure a bit and see if it helps. 42 lbers would be just right on that setup. run a datalog and see if you are running out of duty cycle on the injectors and/or hook up a fuel pressure guage and go for a pull and see if the fuel pressure drops.
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Ya the injectors are at 95% do you think a pump will help out? Or should I look into bigger injectors? What injectors are you using?
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it could be a combination of both. typically you dont want to go over 85% duty cycle on injectors. 42lbers should be fine to like 14-15 psi i would guess. some 550cc injectors would be perfect. i'm using 72lbers on mine which are overkill and really hard to tune, but i have some more new ones i could sell you if interested.
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What's the price on those? I'm goin to see if the guy I got mine from will just trade me for bigger ones if not then I guess I will have to buy a new set which I wanna try to avoid.
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Never mind they are 42lbers 440cc just checked my invoice.
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Updates?!?!
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bump
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bump
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ya, sorry. i fail.
i havnt touched the car since like feb or march. im expanding the shop and things are crazy right now. i will be pulling the motor to build a more efficient manifold as soon as i get a chance and project will go on. i promise.
car just came up for smog too so after i pull the motor i will probably put in a stock one and get it through smog first too.
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Im interested to see someone try a .140 MLS gasket.
6 cylinder e36 people love them and are making 450whp at 16psi out of a 3.0
I quess leaking around the profile gasket is a problem in an m42 as prevoiusly stated. But that could be remedied
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1218177
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1217829
Heres a guy on BFC. Obviously its hard on the motor running such high boost but I wonder what size gasket hes using?
Im thinking of a .140 one for my car just to try it. There not too expensive, it'd be a pain to have to change the gasket again though.
Someone needs to do more testing with one. You can get 9.1:1 with just a gasket and the bottom end is pretty strong.
I plan on running VEMS EMS, Holset HX35 turbo, .140 HG and APR Studs.
Id like to get around 15psi. 300ish Whp
Hunter
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todd,
is MS running fuel, spark, and boost? could you setup a MSPnP for me to also incorporate a knock sensor? MAP sensor?
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todd,
is MS running fuel, spark, and boost? could you setup a MSPnP for me to also incorporate a knock sensor? MAP sensor?
MS is run on a MAP sensor, you delete your AFM completely. MS handles fuel and spark. Boost is handled by your wastegate, unless you have some sort of electronic boost controller, yada yada.
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MS is run on a MAP sensor, you delete your AFM completely. MS handles fuel and spark. Boost is handled by your wastegate, unless you have some sort of electronic boost controller, yada yada.
Not my first turbo rodeo, but thanks for your input. former WRX owner here. it just appeared in the pictures that he was running a manual boost controller, but i read matt325is write-up on using the typhoon controller, not sure if he was capable of putting that in a MSPnP for me. It's also a little vague in his posts to whether he's running a knock sensor or not. Here's a spy-tip for you, i joined this forum before you, but only have 10 posts; I read a lot.
After further reading, i found the MAP Daddy 4bar setup on diyautotune.com
I'm curious to know if that location on the oil pan ended up working for the return line? You've got a very impressive setup todd, i'm in NorCal and would love to come by the shop someday.
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I'm curious to know if that location on the oil pan ended up working for the return line? You've got a very impressive setup todd, i'm in NorCal and would love to come by the shop someday.
I wasn't trying to be sarcastic in my last post, just fyi.
But Todd's shop is actually way down south.
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But Todd's shop is actually way down south.
okay kid, you're officially on quiet time!
I know where his shop is okay, he didn't mention it being in cali; i found it on the Contact Us tab of the dynotech web page and google mapped it. Just like i know you're in Vacaville, maybe i'll come see you someday; i'm stationed at Travis AFB.
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I think someone needs a nap.;)
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Fantastic!
I would enjoy meeting another enthusiast.
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I think someone needs a nap.;)
yeah, base exercises SUCK!
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Very impressed with the build Todd.
Your Ms is making me reconsider my plans for a rrfp.
Looking forward to the update ;)
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Im interested to see someone try a .140 MLS gasket.
6 cylinder e36 people love them and are making 450whp at 16psi out of a 3.0
I quess leaking around the profile gasket is a problem in an m42 as prevoiusly stated. But that could be remedied
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1218177
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1217829
Heres a guy on BFC. Obviously its hard on the motor running such high boost but I wonder what size gasket hes using?
Im thinking of a .140 one for my car just to try it. There not too expensive, it'd be a pain to have to change the gasket again though.
Someone needs to do more testing with one. You can get 9.1:1 with just a gasket and the bottom end is pretty strong.
I plan on running VEMS EMS, Holset HX35 turbo, .140 HG and APR Studs.
Id like to get around 15psi. 300ish Whp
Hunter
We run an E30 Turbo M42 in BMW club racing. Those layered metal head gaskets aren't that great. They look good but in our experience they didn't work as well as the stock head gaskets. We run the stock M44 head gasket. As I'm sure you know, turbo motors give you the opportunity to learn a lot about head gaskets. IMHO I would go with the stock gasket and save that extra money for a spare stock head gasket.
Regarding this build thread, it would be interesting to see some dyno results. We used a Dyno Dynamics which is a steady state dyno and allows tuning with partial throttle. What ECU are you running?
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We run an E30 Turbo M42 in BMW club racing. Those layered metal head gaskets aren't that great. They look good but in our experience they didn't work as well as the stock head gaskets. We run the stock M44 head gasket. As I'm sure you know, turbo motors give you the opportunity to learn a lot about head gaskets. IMHO I would go with the stock gasket and save that extra money for a spare stock head gasket.
Regarding this build thread, it would be interesting to see some dyno results. We used a Dyno Dynamics which is a steady state dyno and allows tuning with partial throttle. What ECU are you running?
Ive heard good and bad on BFC about them.
Obviously its not the best way to lower the compression but im willing to try it. Im not tracking the car either its just my fun car.
You guys have the 666 manifold, gt28 car with the new plenum right? Awesome build.
Hunter
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Hi great job. Do you control the ignitions coils with the MS??
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Nice build, I just noticed it, very clean :)
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great work, first time I check this post out. pretty impressive.Almost would make me take the Begi off the car and order a nice PnP MS :)
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Hi great job. Do you control the ignitions coils with the MS??
yes i do.
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yes i do.
OK Thanks. Do you have some diagram or something of how you install the MS on your M42??? Thanks
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i build a plug and play inside the origional ecu based on the factory electrical schematics.
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Todd's plug and play MS is top notch.
I would recommend it to anyone.
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Thanks danny. hope all is well.
still planning to get my car finished all legit. havnt touched it since january though. its sad, i sold the rims i had on it and now am selling the rollers i have on it. I feel like its wasting away.
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which vac turbo kit are you talking about? I looked on their site and didnt find anything. Do you have a link? I love the idea of turboing my m42, but dont have the time or knowledge to piece together a custom kit...
Well, I'm stocking up on research at the moment. Once I finish the body work on my car, I might buy another to start building the M42, or just buy another M42 engine. I want to rebuild the motor, preferably make it a boosted 2.0 but due to costs, I might keep it at 1.8 and just get the turbo build kit from Vacmotorsports. I'll then do a mild head job, replacing anything thats worn out and then I'll contact you on turbo goodies. In all likelyhood, this project wont take off until the end of the year. But it is something that I'm leaning more towards than swapping a S52.
tglaze, any chance you will be putting together a complete kit for sale??
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how much is the PnP MS?
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I think he mentioned around $600, but not sure
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I would like to know how much the megasquirt is as well
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Subscribed! I want to see the new manifold, etc.
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are you selling the old log style manifold? and also interested in the possibility of a complete kits
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i'd be interested in a kit
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which vac turbo kit are you talking about? I looked on their site and didnt find anything. Do you have a link? I love the idea of turboing my m42, but dont have the time or knowledge to piece together a custom kit...
http://store.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=vacmotors&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=740062892&Count2=657203316
Kit Includes:
CP Forged BMW Turbo Piston Kit, includes rings, pins, and locks (8.5:1)
(4) Forged Arrow Precision H-Beam Connecting Rods with ARP Hardware
VAC Multi-Layered Steel Head Gasket (.070)
ARP Head Stud Kit
The kit costs $2300. I can't do this project until I get another job. Hopefully by then, the OP offers bolt on turbo kits or parts :D
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http://store.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=vacmotors&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=740062892&Count2=657203316
The kit costs $2300. I can't do this project until I get another job. Hopefully by then, the OP offers bolt on turbo kits or parts :D
no need for this kit for anything under 10psi. thats for the big boys, and even then you're better off buying the parts you need individually.
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hey todd, hows the build coming along so far?? i might turbo my M42 ti as soon as i get out of college or maybe get a job, but it looks like its coming along nicely.
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Question for Todd can the OBX headers be turned upside down and work in a top mount setup with a little modifaction of course cheers Billy
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that will put the turbo in a really wierd spot.....probably not recommended :)
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hey todd, hows the build coming along so far?? i might turbo my M42 ti as soon as i get out of college or maybe get a job, but it looks like its coming along nicely.
still havnt touched it. really miss my car though. have been brainstorming on the manifold and have something figured out, just need to do it. we are constantly in the middle of like 10 large projects so its hard to justify any extra time to work on my own car when there are paying customers in line. getting close though. stay tuned guys.
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Question for Todd can the OBX headers be turned upside down and work in a top mount setup with a little modifaction of course cheers Billy
not really, the turbo flange hits the head. you woulf have to slice the flange and rotate and angle it and weld it back together. sucha nice manifold for the $$. would highly recommend for any e36 user.
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no need for this kit for anything under 10psi. thats for the big boys, and even then you're better off buying the parts you need individually.
I'm a big boy now. Look, no stains!!:p
Seriously though, once I jump on a turbo build, I'll be shooting for more than 10psi. Make a worthwhile build and do it right from the start. But that's just me though.
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I build the megasquirts here..
heres another item on the car i forgot to mention. we do the m20 lightenbed flywheels and swap the ring gears so they are PnP for m42 as well. threw this in with a stage 3 m20 clutch.
might tack on a few extra bucks to the build for this setup as well.
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/002.jpg)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr221/tglazier/001.jpg)
I sent you a PM a couple weeks ago asking how much this flywheel is but no response.
I figure this will be a better way to find out.
So how much for just the flywheel?:)
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So how much for just the flywheel?:)
flywheel is $250
stock m20 clutch kit is $195
upgraded clutch options go up from there
flywheels are also 12lbs for the m42 application
Figured I would save him the time and post this up. He posted it up in the middle of the thread. I only know this cause I just read the entire thing. The flywheel works with the M42 starter and requires an M20 clutch. Not sure about T-Bearing though.
Hope this helps
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flywheel is $250
stock m20 clutch kit is $195
upgraded clutch options go up from there
flywheels are also 12lbs for the m42 application
Figured I would save him the time and post this up. He posted it up in the middle of the thread. I only know this cause I just read the entire thing. The flywheel works with the M42 starter and requires an M20 clutch. Not sure about T-Bearing though.
Hope this helps
Thanks,
I read the entire thread when I was building my setup. I thought I saw a price once but couldn't find it again to confirm it.
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Thanks,
I read the entire thread when I was building my setup. I thought I saw a price once but couldn't find it again to confirm it.
I wonder if that setup is completely plug and play though? I am in need of a clutch fairly soon, but I've read so many conflicting reports about what the m20 kit needs. Longer flywheel bolts, some sort of spacer etc. etc. If that kit is plug and play completely it would really spike my interest.
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You need shorter flywheel bolts (the single mass M20 ones), and the spacer you need comes on the flywheel, you just have to put it between the flywheel and crank instead of the bolt heads and the flywheel.
I used the M20 TO bearing that came with my clutch kit, no issues what so ever.
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tglaze...Have you put anymore thought into offering a turbo kit like the one you are building? What are you overall horsepower goals for this project?
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i dont know if this question was asked i just jumped to page 7 but what are your engine internals are they stock or have they been modded and how much boost your running
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I am pretty sure he is running stock internals. I think he said he was doing new head bolts and sticking with the stock head gasket. There was somebody else on here that was running forged internals that put him at 8.5:1 CR...Not positive but pretty sure.
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is have that type of cr bad for boost or good and thats awesome now that i know that we can do we boost on stock but how far did he say 10psi for 300whp cause 300 would be enough for me especially with the power to weight of these cars well become rockets...ya know this just renewed my faith in the M42
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Awesome stuff, clean and neat :) I work in a vehicle dealer and we have turbos and associated parts on the shelf, its very tempting for me to throw money at my engine with those parts :)
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...its very tempting for me to throw money at my engine with those parts :)
do it!!!!!:d
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its a magnaflow resonator and muffler. havnt fired it up yet, still have to build my msq file. shouldnt be too loud. i'll post a sound clip when i get it going as well as a dyno video and what not
You seem to be missing your cat... :D
-D
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Updates???
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Great build! any updates??
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I would like to know some info on the log style manifold.
What size pipe was used?
I am going to try and build one my self.
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depending on how much boost your going to run you should monitor Your exhaust gas temps before they sky rocket with that exhaust manifold but otherwise looks like a solid build:)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a224/Bear607/bends.jpg)
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I want dynotech to tune my boosted m42.
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Do you guys still make the m20/m42 flywheel conversion?
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I'd be interested in a pnp clutch/flywheel kit for my m42 if you're still offering them...
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ya, so been off the forums for a while. just finished moving the shop to a new/better building and am getting geared up to step things back up in terms of marketing, projects, etc. now that we can actually handle the extra workload.
The build is no more :( srapped the the build and sold the car to some guy in Arizona who seemed willing to take good care of it and cary on the 4 cyl e30 legacy. (still have most of the parts)
The log manifold hit its peak at aroun 10psi and then caused problems with exhaust gas reversion in #4 where the collector was about 1.5" from the port. as a bottom mount, there the collector was within 1/8" of where it had to be in any direction, otherwise the turbo would hit the frame rail, firewall, engine, or subframe. This brought me to the conclusion that project bottom mount m42 will not work well for big power unless i could come up with a way to design a trick compact cast manifold with internally formed (longer and curved) runners.
10 psi on an m42 will yeild about 200 rwhp for those interested in the output. quite quick for an e30.
as for the flywheel/clutch kits; we send them completely plug and play for about $550. it can be hard to come up with cores at times so very subject to availability.
still building megasquirt pnp setups and have a dyno as well so feel free to inquire about these as well. best way to get ahold of us is always to call the shop at 760-726-7111
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10 psi on an m42 will yeild about 200 rwhp for those interested in the output. quite quick for an e30.
QFT... I outrun my buddies m52 swapped car without too much trouble.
Sorry to hear you sold it, and wish I was closer for some actual dyno tuning on mine but at least I have it running fairly smooth after tuning for over a year now. lol.
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as for the flywheel/clutch kits; we send them completely plug and play for about $550. it can be hard to come up with cores at times so very subject to availability.
Might be contacting you soon about this.
Thanks for the build thread. Too bad you had to get rid of it.
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as for the flywheel/clutch kits; we send them completely plug and play for about $550. it can be hard to come up with cores at times so very subject to availability.
I'm also interested in this. Definitely looking to change that clutch soon. Might as well combo the flywheel. :cool:
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I'll be calling the shop tomorrow about the single-mass kit as well :)
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Just called and was quoted $600 for anyone else interested.
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Yup, call last week and was quoted $600. Put my name in for one on the waiting list. :cool:
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Sweet. Calling DTM on Monday to confirm an order. I'll definitely keep everyone updated.
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I want this turbo manifold. :)
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I have just made a similar setup for my son, but we are having problems with the crank case breathing. The catch tank is filling up pretty fast when pushing hard on the track. Normal hard driving it works fine. How is this project handle the crank case breathing?
This is our project (in Norwegian, but the pics tels a lot).
http://bimmers.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=223632&hilit=robins
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Here is my Turbo built E30 318is Turbo 313Whp.
https://plus.google.com/+ChrisPhares/photos
Check out my Youtube Channel for some videos.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLEu7uRERoZOnpMyy0x4enA
Cheers.
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I have just made a similar setup for my son, but we are having problems with the crank case breathing. The catch tank is filling up pretty fast when pushing hard on the track. Normal hard driving it works fine. How is this project handle the crank case breathing?
Its got stock pistons and not much boost so its not a problem. you will likely need to add an extra breather port on the valve cover and make sure all breathers are vented to atmosphere and no boost pressure is being fed into crankcase.
This is our project (in Norwegian, but the pics tels a lot).
http://bimmers.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=223632&hilit=robins (http://bimmers.no/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=223632&hilit=robins)