M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: sh123 on March 31, 2015, 05:38:34 PM
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hi,
Looking for some guidence. I have a e36 compact with an m44 in. ( I did put a thread up in another section of this forum but had no reply, so figured a lot more people come on this section)
My car is used for rallying and nothing else so street driveabilty isnt a factor tbh. but one thing i do need which for some reason other people who run compacts in rallying stuggle with is setting off the line due to the type i do there is a lot of stop start.
ive found that my car is hugely under powered and sticking a better air filter and exhaust wont give me the power i need.
Ive come up with some sort of spec but im not 100% sure what best etc
I firstly considered 2.1 but have been in touch with an engine builder in the uk and told me not to bother. He claimed he could get 220 out of a m44 with standard inlet (which my regulations say has to stay standard)
so I was thinking of putting high compression pistons that vac offer is 12:1, vac say race gas only but im assuming i could get away without special fuel. as most competitors i run against dont and they have more modified engines than i will have?
What rods do people recommend?
Will standard m44 crank be allright? or what do people suggest?
and cams? I was considering cat cams but what lift i am unsure of.
Plans are to assemble it myself but ill send the head away to have work done on it.
Im in early stages of getting info together and doing research so bare with me if i come across as clueless haha
Also plans may change as im waiting for regulations to be updated at the end of the year.
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You will probably need to spin to 8k, maybe higher, to get that kind of power out of an M44. I'd talk to Mertric Mechanics since they are probably one of the few that have gotten anywhere close to that output. Spinning that high will Definately place more stress on some well designed internals. The crankshaft and valve train aren't among those, though( for real high rpm). I can't confirm this but IF the rod design is the same as the Euro S50 then they are good to at least 7,500 rpm. Delta cams said they didn't like the results of welding cams. A lot of this depends on your budget, class rules, and how competitive you want to be. Also, after having just installed a light flywheel, I noticed one of the benefits is how much smoother it is near redline. Granted both it and the pressure plate are balanced
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Hi
There's nothing wrong with the m44 crank for na but as soon as you go forced induction it can't handle the stress of massive power.
The block could get bored out upto 87 mm. Requires a different headgasket though, Athena.
Or 86 mm and stay with m44 gasket.
As for the head m44 is designed for low friction.
M42 for revs.
My 2c
Cheers Rohan
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Thanks for the replys!
Yeah I thought the limiter would have to be raised. Ive just remembered about the guy in the forsale section who is selling a m48 lightened and balanced crank with mahle forged pistons and stronger rods. im unsure what the compression ratio was but it brought it up to 2.0ltr. would this be a better option to go down to? atleast then id get a better crank rather than a standard m44 crank. also no modification is needed to the block for this sort of set up.
Darky, are you suggesting i go for m42 head? I had thought this but I wasnt sure if id get any real gains?
budget - i havent really thought about it. my other option would be a honda s2000 engine with type 9 gearbox. Engine and box would be 4000 pounds. but I know i wont get s2000 sort of power out of a m44 so I dont want to spend huge amounts on it.
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Hi again
Your from England, you would be crazy not to find a m47d20 crankshaft.
Find a late e36 m42 also and some new s50 Pistons and play mix and match.
M47 crank, M44 conrods, m44 front timing case, m42 head and 86 mm Pistons.
Good to go! :o
Rohan
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Think thats the plan atm but with mahle forged pistons.
Am i going to have reliability issues with block bored to take 87mm pistons and a 12:1 compression ratio?
Cheers
Sion
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You might want S50 rods in that mix since they are 5mm shorter. I love hybrids. I have 3 different engines in my build: M44 block and crank, M42 head, S50 pistons. My personal record was a datsun I built some years ago with 4 different engines to make a 2.3L monster.
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Benz tech which Datsun motor did you play with? Sr fj l.
87 mm fine with Na but there is no more room between bores, go 86.5 safer!
For forced induction they generally only go to 86 mm.
12:1 is qiute high. Depends on the quality of rings and Pistons and how you look after it.
Cheers Rohan
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S50 rods dont work with m42/4/7 crank, the diameter of s50 rod are bigger
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S50 rods dont work with m42/4/7 crank, the diameter of s50 rod are bigger
real oem has the big ends both at 45mm for an S50 and an M42. The set I had a while back definitely looked identical to my stock M44 rods minus the 5mm overall length.
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S50 rods dont work with m42/4/7 crank, the diameter of s50 rod are bigger
Correct for Euro s50
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Off course i was talking about euro s50, didnt know for US s50
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Right current plan atm is
S50 euro pistons
M44 rods
M47 crank
Going in a m44 block with custom headgasket and trying to find a late e36 m42 head.
an engine builder from croatio is supplying the lightened and balance crank along with pistons. And says i can run my standard m44 rods. What happens with the pin can i use standard pins?
im still unsure what cams to use probably catcams but i need to find the best balance as id like some decent torque. Any suggestions? Also im unsure what to do about head, get it worked on now or not :/
Cheers
sion
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Can a standard m42 head be made to take 6mm valve stems? And 35mm valves ? Does same apply for m44? How much gains will i actually get from going to m42 head?
What is everybody doing with the harmonic dampener with their high revving engines?
Cheers
Sion
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Hi
A late model m42 head comes with 6 mm stem valves.
So you can change them, just order 16 m52 guides and valves, most people think all m42s are 7 mm stem and get confused!
You could put 35 mm valves but not common at all because the valve seats would have to be changed.
So typical max is 34 mm on inlet.
Gains from the m42 head would be measured by being at 7000 rpm and blowing up.
Vac under drive pulley set.
Hope this helps
Rohan
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Thanks for your reply.
Yeah i know only late ones comes with 6mm but im struggling to find one. But found quite a few e30 heads. Ill have a look into swapping the guides over.
I never realised that the seats have to get changed. For 35mm.
I didnt get your comment about 7000rpm and blowing up.
With the vac underdrive pulleys id have to run standard harmonic dampener?
Ive sent an email to go ahead with the 12:1 compression pistons and lightened and balenced 88mm crank.
Cheers
Sion
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Ok...choose whatever head you like but you're not going to swap any valve guides over! LOL If you meant switching from 7mm to 6mm then that's ok but you always put new guides in no matter what. Just making sure that's what you were saying:-) The guides are measured from the inside diameter not the outside. So you would need new 6mm valve guides with 6mm stock valves if you wanted them without any other change.
You don't have to change any seats if you don't want to. All depends on what you're doing to the head and how much $$$ you want to spend. All out race motor with no expense skipped then you could go 34mm on the intake and 31.5mm on the exhaust or bump up to whatever the S42 had which I think was 35mm/32mm.
Internet myth about the front hub blowing up at above 7K. I have yet to hear of one actual case of this. I've told the story about the SC M42 at the track at WGI running 7.5K all day long for years!! It's still running! LOL And now MM running 7.7K? Don't you think they would have a warranty issue unless of course they redesigned it and put a new one on?? Anyone with a MM 2.1L want to chime in?
Sion, You should have a screaming motor when it's all put together... Good Luck!!
Cheers,
~Ralph
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yeah I worded it wrong im afraid haha
Im still stuck on what cams to go for. Im not really that clued up to make a decision at the moment. any input? I Need something that will give me reasnable amount of torque.
The only thing im worried about with valves is that If I have issues (if thats such a thing) and that I have to for out more money to make all this work. As in huge amount of porting or I have to go standalone?
Also something I have been thinking of. will I gain from porting the tb? or is there larger/better standard throttle body that can be fitted?
how much sort of power am I looking at with all this do you guys reckon?
cheers
Sion
Ps Ill post some pics of whatthis engine will be going in soon with specs etc. hopefully engine will be coming out in a few weeks.
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12:1 compression is a lot of torque!!!!!
M44 head does not like revs very much unlike the m42.
Cams that's a science, tell us what you want it to do and valve size, and opinions will flood in. Generally 250/250 copy of us s50 does the job.
Throttle body, don't bother yet, get her going again and then think itb, as you maf. A huge advantage!
Power is a funny thing, you could have lots up high but none down low, depends on a great deal of things.
Don't go for max it won't be useable!
My opinion anyway
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Sion,
Designing the whole engine to work harmoniously is a science...LOL
Make sure you design things properly with things that are not easily removed and replaced...ie: Crank,Pistons,Rods,Valves
All the other stuff is like bolt ons which is easily swapped out with little effort...ie: TB, Cams
For cam choice there are a lot of variables as Darky has mentioned. Just make sure that your valve reliefs in your pistons are cut deep enough to allow for larger lift cams if you choose to go that route for clearance purposes. Also compression plays a large role in this as well.
Get a complete plan together first and see how it looks on paper first. Then talk to your engine builder if you have one as well to see what they say.
It's very important to plan ahead and have it all thought out first. 8) Makes things much easier.
Keep us updated....
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Thanks for your replies guys very much appreciated!
So sort of an update, pistons and cranks have been ordered now should be here in a few weeks. Im going to get a engine builder to build the bottom end for me and get him to balence it all the same time as well as lightening a flywheel for it.
What are people running for rod shells and main bearings? standard? was looking at vac?
with this setup i can run 2.5mm lift at tdc which doesnt give me huge amounts of choice for cams.
So I am looking at possible http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/1301414.pdf (http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/1301414.pdf)
and with these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Supertech-Valves-BMW-S42-M42-1-8L-2-5L-1mm-Oversize-/250502451472 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Supertech-Valves-BMW-S42-M42-1-8L-2-5L-1mm-Oversize-/250502451472)
And this is what the engine will go in eventually!
(https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/t51.2885-15/e15/10953078_1435762723382257_237430601_n.jpg)
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Hi Sion
That's alot of lift for oversized valves :o
Remember you will have a larger opening in the head now no need for such a large amount of lift.
I remember doing my head and I found that I had 2 different outside diameters of my valve guides, 0.40 something inches. (I hate imperial) I took them out measured them and brought new ones to match except instead of 7 mm guides I got i 6 mm guides for my new valves (internal diameter).
Cheers Rohan
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darky, If i stayed with standard valves with 6mm stem would the cam be more adequate then? there is another cam on their site with similair duration but less lift if i remember would that suit it better then if i had oversized valves? thanks for your help!
what are my options with the crank trigger and crank sensor?
From what I have read they say go for m42 timing case, but it seems as if m42 timing cases are troublesome and weak?
So recieved pics of my kit the other night as well along with some spec of pistons, kit is currently in the post on the way to me
Pistons spec: weight 309g (im guessing with out pins and rings), height 28.2mm, 87mm diameter. Head gasket 1.45mm
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/20150428_1705081_zpsqq6qk2uq.jpg)
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Hi
Before we begin that picture is beautiful! Dam that crank is light, I love the look of new bits.
I'd go oversized valves that way you don't need the lift (as much) as lift is just another enemy, spring wear, breakage and also rpm. Your there may as well do it right! My valve guides were 0.495 and 0.493 outside and 6 mm inside of course. Knock yours out and measure buy to suit! Ask for m52 ones otherwise they will send 7 mm guides.
But don't buy cams yet either, you need to do a practice build with existing camshafts to see what will fit!
No point having massive cams if you just end up hitting Pistons with valves! :'(
As for timing case, go either late m42 timing guide, small oil pump.
Or m44 timing case timing guide, large oil pump but you need to make a bracket to hold crank sensor.
Cheers Rohan
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Thanks for your input rohan! Much appreciated!!
Are there any standard bmw rod and main bearings which will do the job? Or get aftermarket ones?
Im back home after a weak away now so engine will be coming out this weekend!
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Hi Sion
For excellent bearings go MM, xrallyparts (same ones) or vac autosports.
I think xrallyparts are the closest to you, you will probably get a scared when you see a price list though!
What connecting rods are you using?
Regards Rohan
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Yeah ive been on xrallyparts website before, very expensive stuff on there!
Found some 'acl race bearings' which come to £160 around $190 probably for main and rod bearing.
M44 but will get whole bottom end balenced and arp bolts. Do people put arp bolts on crank or head?
Im also considering staying m44 head atm will save huge amount of hassle. Just have to somehow upgrade the m44 head.
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http://www.aclperformance.com.au/BMWM40Bearings.htm l (http://www.aclperformance.com.au/BMWM40Bearings.htm l)
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Yep that will do it nicely.
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When you get those bearings see if they fit straight in or whether the tap might be abit big?
Be interested to know.
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So engine has now been taken out, awaiting to be stripped.
Parts arrived this morning so will get some pics up asap, pistons are insanely light.
I might get my engine builder to sort bearings out now.
Anybody know if m42 and m44 valves are the same?
Cheers
Sion
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Need some advice guys.
Been doing tons of research into larger valves and better springs for the m44 head. Found more or less nothing!
What i need to know is can a m42 head be put into a e36 which had a m44 engine in? I belive that there are water pipes at the rear of the m44 but not m42? Im sure this can work easilyenough, and i think cam sensor are different? Can they beswapped over? And inlet but ill stick to m44 inlet.
I find that there aretons of m42 valves, springs, cams, lifters etc. But nothing at all for m44 unless id go custom which means more £££ or $$$ :D
Also are m20 and m42 harmonic dampeners interchangeable? Struggling to find one.
Nothing to update on build atm other than everythings stripped ready for machinist.
Cheers
Sion
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would I be right in saying if i fitted the m44 upper timing case along with trigger wheel on the cam and m44 sensor on to the m42 head it would work? As I have found that m42 takes the cam timing off the exhaust? and the m44 takes the cam timing off the inlet i belive? also both sensors are different?
This would just leave me with the the water supply at the back to sort?
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This is what I plan on doing. It looks like it will work but it will be a few months before I can verify. I have both timing covers and sensors just in case. My end goal is to run the M44 ECU etc in my E30.
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Hi
Check the different sensors with a multimeter! See if they have the same resistances.
Keep us updated Benz tech that's a nice plan with running m44 ecu.
Cheers Rohan
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Slight set back. Builder who was going to do my block has suffered a stroke so im now bavk to square one. Struggling to find someone who isnt going to charge a fortune! And who is willing to fit valves :/
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Hi
Sh123 where are you located?
Cheers
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Hi
North wales, UK.
Are these the correct vag lifters for m42? https://vwheritage.mobi/GB/productDetails.cfm?iItemID=102679797 (https://vwheritage.mobi/GB/productDetails.cfm?iItemID=102679797)
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Hi sh123
I'm in oz, so I can't recommend anybody.
But someone should be able to recommend somebody.
As for those lifters, I know that some 35 mm vw lifters do fit not sure whether it's those ones.
But it is on this site!
Some of us went to 33 mm lifters from m52 cam tray cut down though.
Cheers Rohan
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Thanks for the reply Rohan!
Need some input/estimations from you guys now.
im quickly realising the cost of building an engine haha
So im looking to see if cost of head is justifiable or atleast can stay like is for now.
how much power will i be looking at with a 2.1 block 12:1 compression, ported head with stiffer valve springs everything else stock?
how much more power am I looking at from 35mm and 31.5mm Valves? seems that head work jumps up quite a bit when putting larger valves in.
Im considering putting the larger valve idea to the side for now. and concentrating on getting the block together and engine back in as I have a few events coming up after August so im getting quite tight for time now.
Also i have plans for a close ratio gear box.
cheers!
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Hi sh123
Please tell me your name?
There are a couple of reasons to put different valves, springs guides etc. the best is to get rid of the 7 mm stem.
The other thing to consider is that the power is in the head.
Also nothing stoping you from doing the bottom end and then doing the head later.
Just with 12.1 2.1 lightened crank and 6 mm 33 mm 30.5 mm valves you will still be around 200 with a good tune.
Cheers Rohan
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Hi rohan,
My names sion
Well im thinking putting appropriate cams with better lifters and springs and maybe getting the valves fitted at a later date
200bhp attheflywheel still sounds reasonable!
Has anybody had experience with dbilas springs? Cant find that much info on them.
Cheers
Sion
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hi,
not much happening at the moment but hopefully in the next couple of weeks it will start coming together, or atleast the block and head will be sent away to be assembled.
one major issue I have is conrod bolts. I will be using standard m44 conrods, but I can not find any uprated bolts anywhere ( +I havent rang around however)
are there bolts I can use from other engines (6cyl bmw?)
or will standard bolts be fine? im not planning on reving over 7200 for now.
also looking for input on these
http://www.dbilas-shop.com/Products/Valve-spring-sets/BMW/M44/Valve-spring-set-for-BMW-318is-Z3-16V-M44-with-6-mm-valve-stem::7089.html (http://www.dbilas-shop.com/Products/Valve-spring-sets/BMW/M44/Valve-spring-set-for-BMW-318is-Z3-16V-M44-with-6-mm-valve-stem::7089.html)
im looking at getting cam reground for now. and building a decent head in year or two.
cheers
Sion
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Hi
Standard is fine at that rev limit.
Cheers Rohan
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Quick question for you
Do usa spec s50/s52 valve springs fit the m42?
The s50/s52 usa spec uses the same valve spring as my euro spec m44.
Now as im writing this ive recieved a message of supertech saying they are the same. But you guys may as well tell me just to be sure.
Update on the build: had a quote to build complete engine which came to £3000 off a highly regarded engine builder but its a bit high as cams, valves, springs or even enlarging the valve seats was not included. So im doing the assembly myself now. Therfore if you guys come back with a good answer its having +1 oversize supertech valves and springs and the head sent away for gas flowing and cnc head porting. And block should be sent for boring in the next week or two.
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Good cams are going to be way more benefit than a valve and spring upgrade and port work. The valves are still a nice upgrade though if they are one piece versus two piece for reliability.
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Hi Sion
We don't get the U.S. S5* engines here in Australia so I can't help you with that question.
We get the euro s5* engines like you.
Cheers Rohan
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The guy thats going to do the head can do custom cams for me. So ill just get him to spec them for me.
Cheers
Sion
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Right, abit of an update today. So the engine is booked in to be built by a engine builder. I gave in at the end. He is going to sort czms and everything out for me and hes going to look into possibly a valve job depending on cost.
Not a huge updat but itll be sent early next week. Maybe because it will be out of my hands the build will move on quicker :D
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Hi Sion
These things take time, relax!
What head did you end up using?
Research and enjoy it.
Cheers Rohan
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Hi rohan
Yeah i know. The engine has been out the car now for about 6 months, it just feels like ive got no where haha.
M44 head for now to keep cost down. I may look into a m42 head at a later date along with larger valves etc.
Cheers
Sion
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...... so its gone to the engine builders.
Getting excited now. Got a lot to do to the car now before i put the engine back in.
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You may have this sorted out by now but realoem has s52 and m44 beehive springs as the same p/n. I will run these (since I have a set from a cracked m44 head) as soon as I add 33mm lifters to the mix. I'm not sure they'd be up to the task with 35's.
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hi,
it is the m44 head that im running now already, so will have these springs fitted.
I have asked the engine builder to have a look and give me feedback on his thoughts on going larger valves and what to do with the valve springs. as Im uncertain on their plans with the cams at the moment.
one thought/problem that has been going through my mind is the what to set the rev limit. Im unaware of what the stock valvetrain of the m44 head can take? and what about stock m44 conrods? and rod bolts? im going to look into this now, but maybe someone knows these answers allready.
regards
Sion
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Sion,
I run the beehive springs with my motor. I have 33mm buckets and 10.4mm lift on my cams and there is no issue.
I run my rev limit at 7500rpm's.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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As far as the rods go, I saw no difference between an m44 rod and s52 rod other than the length. I have the stock balanced m44 rods and I'll be spinning mine to 7,500 rpm if it makes power that far up.
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Great thanks for the input.
My main worry with the m44 is the roller rockers that the m44 have. Cant find any info at all and no info on their rev limit other than a few saying the m44 doesnt like rev. But no real evidence of this.
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right so I have fitted my new radiator tonight. was a bit of a pain as the drain plug for the radiator was right where the strengthening bar for my sump guard is.
anyway I thought I had ordered the 328 radiator that has the expansion bottle stuck to it. (all this may be different on a e30 im unsure) baisiclly I know have to fit an expansion bottle to it. I could go ahead and fit it where my battery is like the e36 m3. but this seems like a lot of hassle. even through it may tidy the bay up a bit. and i may be fitting a non bmw bottle anyway(I work in a garage which recovers accident damage cars, so have plenty to hand)
my question is does the expansion bottle need to be at a certain height. where i have in mind may mean the bottom of the tank could be lower than the top hose.
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Hi
The expansion tank needs to be just a little bit higher than the top of the radiator.
That way any of the air in radiator will eventually bleed out into expansion tank and cause no issues.
Cheers
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Hi
Change of plan. Im moving the battery inside the car. So i will put the expansion tank where the battery is like the rhd e36 m3's
I have also ordered some injectors.
And im looking into a 6speed close ratio box out of a honda s2000, watch this space
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hello sion
i looked into the s2000 gearbox and the ratios in the 328/m3 box seemed better and much easier to fit. i am still using the standard 318ti gearbox which i previously used with a 328 engine and it has been given some heavy abuse https://youtu.be/vldaFf5zwvU (skip the first 60 seconds as i got lost) but never given me any problems. i have a 2.1 m42 and have been told if i want to keep it safe i should limit the revs to 7000 as the longer stroke puts more strain on the rods and i am using the standard m42 rods. Is your engine going into a rally car?
good luck with your build
tim
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hi Tim,
We did speak on the bmw rallying forum a few weeks ago, not sure if you remember or not, I think I have the same username.
I think that the s2000 has closer ratios than the m3 6 speed hence why I was/am looking at going down this route. problem with the bmw 6 speed is its exactly the same ratios as I have now but with an overdrive. with the type of rallying I do a direct 5th and a 4.45 diff is ideal top speed, hence why im looking for a box with as close to a direct 5/6th as I can.
Bmw ratios: 4.35, 2.5, 1.66, 1.23, 1.00, 0.85
s2000 ratios: 3.634, 2.372, 1.718, 1.347, 1.126, 0.941
yes im keeping mine at 7000 i think, but the compact cup guys are running their standard m44's at 7200RPM
Not much news on the build side of things, just doing bits and bobs to the car. spoke to the guy who will be remapping it once its back running so that is all sorted. And spoke to the engine builder, said he was starting some point this week and he is going to concentrate on my build to get it done all at once.(rather than doing other builds as well)
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your right, the s 2000 ratios do look better than the ones in the 328 box, they don't seem expensive at the moment either. I'm not sure i can face all the work involved with fitting the starter motor, clutch, bell housing and prop shaft.
a friend of mine has one off the car so i might go and have a look, do you know if it has been done before?
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Them ratios are for the first series of s2000 just so you know 2nd series is very similar however.
Yes it has been done i know of two. What needs doing is cutting the bellhousing in half the then transfers the mounts for the starter. Then you need a slave of a diesel vauxhall( i havent a part no yet) and then a honda accord 240mm clutch disc fitted to a m3 flywheel and cover plate. Quite simple really you just need to find an engineer to do the cutting and welding.i can send a few pics if needed.
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Hi
What affect would 35mm inlet valves and standard exhaust valves have on a m42? Ive asked my builder to get back to me on valves but doing a bit of reading. Have found that the Peugeot 206 gti180 inlets ar 6mm exact same length and 35mm. One peace uprated ones are about £20 each. Just got me wondering
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http://www.spoox.co.uk/en/919-valves?p=2 (http://www.spoox.co.uk/en/919-valves?p=2)
The exhaust valves of this engine wont work though as they are longer
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Scion,
In my opinion you need to be making over 250 crank HP before you consider moving up to bigger valves. Remember that everything has to work together. Valves are not a bolt on performance so I would concentrate on other areas.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Hi Ralph.
Thats fair enough I was only looking as I know a lot of other engines which are used for competition usually have bigger valves than the m42/4. Such as whati just linked which are standard sized valves on a 2.0 with 180bhp factory.
Im not arguying as i havent really a clue what im talking about haha. But my head will be flow benchd etc and the cams will be specified by the builder so he will be making the final decisions.
Cheers
Sion
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Scion,
I'm just speaking from personal experience on the S14 where I still have the stock valves and am making 320+HP from a possible 380HP.
I can't wait to see what your builder comes up with. Are you allowed to port the head?
~Ralph
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Yes im having the head ported. Ive basically asked him to see what he reckons and get back to me with a price. Buts its being ported and cams atleast.
Im looking forward as well as he is very well known in the uk especially in the classic/competition ford scene. Ill post some links later of some of the engines hes built.
I rang him last week and he told me he was starting it last Wednesday /thursday and he was going to do it all at once. So hopefully it will be here soon!
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The size of valves to fit depends a lot on the bore size of the engine. An engine of equal displacement but larger bore can make use of bigger valves. The reason is the valves have more room to space out without being right up against the cylinder wall.
Bigger valves dont benefit if the flow from them interferes with the other valve flow!
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So the builder contacted me today. Hes stripped the engine given me a proper quote with parts etc now included. He is regrinding the standard cams for me. And for some reason exhaust valves need replacing i havent asked why yet but they were clogged up with black stuff when i looked so maybe they are pitted or something.
He says work is starting tomorrow and should be with me in 4 weeks!
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Hey guys,
i just read the complete threat and i´m fighting around with the same problem, i just building an M42 rally engine.
Setup so long:
M42 Head:
CNC machined and ported head, CNC machined combustion chambers, flowbench test, multi angle valve seat ring cut, new conical valve guides for 6mm valves, aso... (all done by NG Motorsport Germany)
Valves:
Supertech Inconel Valves, +1mm inlet and outlet,
Camshafts:
Catcams 1301520 Kit (298/290) including Follower, Lash Caps, upper and lower retainers & suitable uprated Springs (no more hydraulic lifters)
Pistons:
CP Forged Pistons, 11:1 Ratio
I'm not really sure if i should put all together in this configuration!? What do you think?
Crankshaft and Flywheel will be lightened and balanced for sure, even forged I or H Beam Conrods will be used.
But i'm struggeling with my head config.....
I have to mention that i'm not allowed (rally regulations) to use an ITB, for sure it will get an DTA ECU and will run on AlphaN.
Goal is an engine with an big usable rpm range, starting somewhere around 5000 till 8000rpm´s
Please help me and let me hear your ideas and proposals!
David
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Hi
Sounds impressive but this is Sion's thread.
He has gone with 87mm pistons and 88 mm crank. Hint!!
Cheers Rohan
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Hi David,
Personally I am not the right person to give you advice on what spec to build your engine. I have sent my engine away to be built and spec'd by a engine builder, their are a few reasons for this:
Firstly I wasnt happy with building an m44 head as their wasnt much info out there on them, therfore I decided it was best for someone who had more experiance in building heads in general
If i would have built it myself i would have had the head built by one company and the block by an engineer. ....What happens if the engine goes bang?(which often happens in competition circumstances) who would I turn to if it blew up...Therfore if I was you I would go back to NG Motorsport and see what they think of your bottom end and what they can do.
Few pointers I would give on your build though, Im building mine for rallying but I was looking for torque as the rallying I do is very twisty and not suited for high revving engines, So hopefully with a 2.1 block and 12:1 compression I will see good torque. I belive if you kept to 1.8/9 you would have to rev it much harder which as you may know isnt always good for rallying and engine life.
Good luck with your build though
Sion
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Hey Sion,
i forgot to mention, i'm even not allowed to raise the ccm, so i MUST stay at 1800ccm.
Our Rally regulations are a bit shitty.
So i try to make the best of it. As we all know 1800ccm will never be a torque-monster... :-)
Thats why i'm trying to find someone who has experince in a 1800ccm powerbuild.
Thanks
David
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I havent much to update on this thread. nothing much has happened recently other than getting my car ready for the engine. so its now baisiclly ready for the engine to go straight in other than re routing the fuel lines as I used to have braidied lines running inside but they made the car smell of petrol. so now gone for copper lines, andalso I will need to re route the coolant pipes, which I cant do until the engine is in really.
The only update on the engine is that its first inline to be put together in january. I didnt want to go to much into it with my builder as I do not want harras him haha. but maybe it should be back with me by end of january or feb? we shall see.
In the meantime ive aquired this:
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/20151217_105626_zpspxvfml99.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/20151217_105626_zpspxvfml99.jpg.html)
Now what do I fit in this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVino9WOZmI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVino9WOZmI)
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very nice, i was interested in that compact, looks like a nice shell. i might be getting some m42 2500cc cranks and rods if you want to keep it 4 pot and stage rally it :)
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Thank you tim!
Im very interested in the crank and rod! Any more info? Pm me if you like! Last thing i want to do is stick a heavy 6 cyl in her!! Even if the power is 300bhp+
Cheers
Sion
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not much to update, just a few pics ive been sent across, over past few weeks, builder says engine should be done end of this week.
Got a few things done on the car over the weekend, such as finished the mounts for the bigger radiator, made a new mount for a vw expansion tank, So now the car is more or less ready for the engine to be put back in 8)
Also been in touch with a company called thinkauto, who say they have m42 and m44 take off adapters that replace the screw on caps for the oil filter, they say they should be on sale early this year. so once they are available ill fit an oil cooler to the engine. and im about to order the bits I need for a COP conversion once im done uploading these pics
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_2994_zpszkd277vn.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_2994_zpszkd277vn.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_2995_zpsrgqotw6e.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_2995_zpsrgqotw6e.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_2996_zpsxmr5xxa2.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_2996_zpsxmr5xxa2.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_2997_zpsfhi2iqiq.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_2997_zpsfhi2iqiq.jpg.html)
And to finnish, some new wheels ive chucked on the car ::)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/20160116_174601_resized_zpsfdzkdu4e.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/20160116_174601_resized_zpsfdzkdu4e.jpg.html)
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Nice Sion
You boring it yourself?
very nice, i was interested in that compact, looks like a nice shell. i might be getting some m42 2500cc cranks and rods if you want to keep it 4 pot and stage rally it :)
2500 cc crank?
Hartge made a 2350 cc but massive out of square.
Cheers Rohan
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No, these are just pictures ive been sent from the engine builder.
Sion
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had some bad yet good news today, had a email off the builder asking what i had planned for the rods forthis engine. He had asked once or twice before. So I gave him a call and he offered me a set of rods with arp bolts. I asked do I need them andif standard should be fine as obviosuly I had read on the forums standard should be good. anyway cut a long story short he foundthe small ends of the rods had gone on a couple. so I decided to take the plunge and upgrade the rods.
So looks like I should have a pretty good bottom end now. so Ive been researching quite a bit to see if I can get the head to rev higher in the future.
obviously me running the m44 I am at a disadvantage. and seemed at the time alot of fettling to get the m42 head to run on m44 management. which at the moment im kinda regretting.
What I have found though is that ford pinto's running 8-9000rpm and 200-225bhp actualy upgrade their valvetrain to roller bearing followers. which I am a bit confused.
Is it the roller bearing thats at fault? the actual finger/follower that doesnt like high revs? or what I have noticed is that they do not run hydraulic tappets. And the follower actually sits on a adjustable ball stud.
some input would be great. I dont want to mention this to my builder as I have spent enough on my build for now. so this will be a further stage to my build to get it to rev higher on itb's
anyway.....
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3003_zpsqlcmiyuz.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3003_zpsqlcmiyuz.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3002_zpsiucgrcit.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3002_zpsiucgrcit.jpg.html)
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just my 2cents, the mitsubishi EVOs run the roller bearing valve train and they rev like crazy, and i still don't know where the myth of "this valve train doesn't like revs" come from?
even the S54 doesn't run hydraulic buckets but the roller bearing valve train but a bit differently....
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I have seen you mention the evo head a few times which is interesting.
2 things worry me about the m44 head
1: is the actualy roller follower up to it? it seems flimsy, what are bmw ones like compared to evo?
2: is the tappets up to it? have you any specs on the evo one?
I have done a lot of googling on this tonight, few pointers that seems to be said
roller bearing followers on different make cars seems to be a updgrade done further down the line in abuild, and i read somewhere are used on f1 cars?
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i'm sorry, i'm afraid i have no specs regarding them except for my driving experience, i had a mitsubishi colt before that had the 4G92 MIVEC engine it was 1.6 litre with 170HP that revved almost to 8000 rpm with no problem at all, it had that same rocker roller bearing valve train, and i've never heard about any problems concerning that design in those engines.
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Still love pictures of that crank!
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I think the main reason people say the M44 head cannot handle higher revs is because the OEM cams are an economy grind and dont support high end power. Most say there is no point in revving high because you wont make any power...which is true.
If you switch to a nice cam grind made for higher rpm power I dont think you will have issues. The mitsu cam follower system is very similar. You would need to put them side by side to do a good comparison though. The mitsu cam followers are very similar as are the hydraulic adjusters. EVO guys replace the hydraulic adjusters at a point to solid adjusters, but I think that is pretty high up in the rev range that becomes necessary. If you shot just for a nice full power band up to 8k the factory equipment should suffice.
I attached pictures of the M44 followers and the EVO8 followers. EVO picture has the adjustable piece
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Darky i do love pictures of this crank as well. Haha.
Thank you wazzu for your input. Much appreciated.
After momansi mentioned the evo followers i did some research and found that piper cams in the uk do the solid lifter kit for the evos. And I have also found dimensions for the hydraulic tappets in the evo. So I will mention it to my builder before he puts the head together to measure the tappets. Hopefully ill be able to sort something.
This work however wont happen until the shell is ready. Because if I am happy with the engine, it will have a second stage of build. With larger valves. More aggressive cams.
But again as you mentioned wazzu if standard tappets should be good for 8k then i wont bother going for solid tappets
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Solid lifters/adjusters sound cool, but its a real PITA. If hydraulic works fine, its so much easier :)
Looking at the Catcams site the grinds available for M44 do not require solid lash adjustment. You can always call and discuss, but it looks like you should put your money into valve springs and retainers and not worry about the hydraulic adjusters.
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i strongly agree with both of you... :)
another thing that caught my attention, the airbox for these engines is really small in terms of air capacity.
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Got a few updates today or pictures atleast.
head is having a three angle valve job tomorrow, and he has recieved rods so will be fitting them as well he said.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3018_zpseauvcv9b.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3018_zpseauvcv9b.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3017_zpsfskr7nfs.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3017_zpsfskr7nfs.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3016_zpskkxqsnkq.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3016_zpskkxqsnkq.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3015_zpssq3o9hwz.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3015_zpssq3o9hwz.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3014_zpsbittos0q.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3014_zpsbittos0q.jpg.html)
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few more pics today
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3028_zpsbf0hsdeh.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3028_zpsbf0hsdeh.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3027_zpsa1jsoxhr.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3027_zpsa1jsoxhr.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3026_zps4htgakyu.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3026_zps4htgakyu.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3025_zpsfytydmpl.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3025_zpsfytydmpl.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3022_zpsbxu59skq.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3022_zpsbxu59skq.jpg.html)
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What's your desired compression?
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What's your desired compression?
Kit I have should give a 12:1 ratio with custom headgasket that was included. Builder said he was checking compression ratio today.
Sion
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hi, not said much lately :o
So things changed abit. after the builder checked they compression ratio we found that it came to about 14.4:1 I think it was. So ive had to get the pistons machined. he machined some of the edges then machined all the piston down 0.5mm giving me a ratio of 11.8:1 with a cometic headgasket that he has had to order which is holding the build up now. The block is now completed and back together and the head is completed.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3198_resized_zpswjbusb4c.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3198_resized_zpswjbusb4c.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3197_resized_zpsz8apfqga.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3197_resized_zpsz8apfqga.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3196_resized_zpsl3lghhpq.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3196_resized_zpsl3lghhpq.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3188_resized_zpsbfobcvhd.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3188_resized_zpsbfobcvhd.jpg.html)
im not gonna' lie I cant get enough of pictures of the block! shame its all going to be hidden :(
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Hi
It is a pitty that it all gets hidden.
Did you get the crank balanced with flywheel and clutch?
To get 14.4:1 what connecting rods where you using?
Cheers
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Yes its a pitty! It will be worth it i hope :P
Yes bottom end has been fully balanced
Standard length rods! Both head and block have been skimmed so maybe this has something to do with it? I do not know. I never questioned it.
Sion
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Good news today. The engine is now fully built.
So hopefully we will have an engine next week!
Looks like I'll have a busy weekend ahead of me!
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Excellent news
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final update before the engine comes. (ill be away all week when this engine arrives :-[ )
ive baught a second hand mocal oil filter take off plate. the guy i bought it off had a supercharged m42 i belive. and he had to relocate the alternator to the exhaust side of the engine. but ive made a few guesses and I think I could make it owrk with original m44 alternator mount in place. and also using bango type fitting rather than straight or bend type fittings to the pipe. Also I purchased a plate to relocate the oil filter. The guy was a mocal dealer and suggested I wait for the new caps that screw in plate above the filter. but I wasnt kean on this idea as everytime I would need to change the filter I would have to remove all the pipework, as the m44 cap is screw on.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_1843_zpsunte6riy.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_1843_zpsunte6riy.jpg.html)
This also has a hole for a oil pressure warning light
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_1845_zpseylm8pcr.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_1845_zpseylm8pcr.jpg.html)
here is a few pics of the crank sensor mount for the front off the m44 timing case
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3311_zpsrgmrx0oe.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3311_zpsrgmrx0oe.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3309_zpsovbqab8d.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3309_zpsovbqab8d.jpg.html)
I will however beef the mount up as it has been suggested to me and possibly make a guard for it. as it is rather exposed.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3310_zpsm3qfvyhd.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3310_zpsm3qfvyhd.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3254_zps4ywvtykp.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3254_zps4ywvtykp.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/IMG_3250_zps4a988pce.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/IMG_3250_zps4a988pce.jpg.html)
And over the past few weeks ive rewired all the wiring that I have previously doe to try and tidy the interior and under the bonnet. I have also relocated the battery to the rear and fitted a master switch etc this pic is half way through, you can just about see the new switch panel and master switch panel
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/20160214_180627_zpsbpz1vdcs.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/20160214_180627_zpsbpz1vdcs.jpg.html)
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looking good, hope all goes well with the install and initial fire up. what ecu are you using?
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Standard ecu which will be remapped on a rolling road/dyno
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Hi
I'm surprised you don't go m42 head as getting springs and hydralic lifters for 10k can be attained fairly easily.
Just need to make sure the rest can handle it.
Cheers Rohan
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Hi Rohan.
You are right I could have but at the time I wasnt sure if the m42 head would work. Thats why I havent gone "all out" with this head and gone for regrinds and a port job. Im going to see how happy I am with it. And in 2/3/4 years when this engine is going in the stage car with itbs and standalone I will then consider a m42 head, solid lifter, cams , and possibly valves.
Sion
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oh...and the engine arrived yesterday. but im away until tomorrow :( So I have plenty of time to think about it here in the hotel :o
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Hi Sion
M44 ecu?
I noticed that you have a m44 front timing case and Bracket for the crank sensor like a m42 mod.
That's just annoying new toy and your away.
Cheers Rohan
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Yes m44 ecu.
And the trigger wheel had to be moved to the outside as they are inside on the m44s
Sion
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so this weekend this happened
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/20160320_1804111_zpsevwbp82j.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/20160320_1804111_zpsevwbp82j.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/20160319_1729091_zpsafploez7.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/20160319_1729091_zpsafploez7.jpg.html)
obviously it is not done. but got engine in. all water hoses sorted which I was worried about as I had relocated the expansion tank. sorted most things under the manifold out. Fitted the clutch and flywheel as well.
Have an issue though. I bought injectors for it around 4 months ago unknowingly for m42. It didnt cross my mind the diameter of the holes in the manifold was smaller. I know vac do adapters but im in the uk.
So ive sent a few emails around to people who do supercharger kits for the m44 here in the uk as I see they do adapters as part of the kit. I did also think maybe (i need to measure first) if I can take apart the m44 injector and cut the bottom off I may be able to get the m42 injector to sit inside? was just an idea.
and im sorting everything for the oil cooler out tomorrow. so that will be my job for tomorrow night!
ive been in touch with the the guy who will be mapping the ecu and there is a waiting list of 3 weeks. so im contemplating booking it in to get mapped in next 3/4weeks. as it will be run in on the rolling road as well.
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Can you machine the injector cup in the manifold to the larger diameter? Not sure if there is enough meat to do that or not. Other option is to wed in an aluminum injector bung of the proper diameter.
I havent worked on an M44 so I am just going off what you are saying is the problem :)
The M42 injector is more standard so being able to fit them easily opens up a lot of options for you.
You are remapping the stock ECU if I remember correctly. Are the locations for fuel and ignition maps known for the OBD2 system? I have a standalone so I have not looked into it and am just curious.
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The holes in the manifold are to big so I just need and adapter to sit inside you see. I have had a reply off a injector specialist who has adapters and is looking into the stock that he has incase he has the appropriate size. Otherwise i may get somebody to weld them up or possibly we have a lathe at work we may be able to knock something up (we rarely use it)
With regards to mapping, here in the uk there is a guy who is well known for mapping bmw ecu's. A guy I know had his mapped there. Same ecu. 2ltr block stock head and cams they managed 180bhp on standard ecu, manifold and injectors. And making the most of the disa valve in the m44 to get good torque.
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Awesome. Having the hole in the manifold be too big rather than too small is an easier fix!
Good news on the remapping. Seems a lot more common outside the US for there to be people available to do this. I wish I had gone with the M44 ecu and mapped it out myself, but at the time a standalone was an easier path.
Cant wait to see this up and running!!
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Yes hopefully i can sort it fairly easy.
Yes he did say he will take a whole day to do it. Thats as much info as I can give you sorry haha
I cant wait either. Im getting all the little bits that are missing today such as exhaust manifold bolts, cooler pipework. This should just leave me with the injector problem. I fitted gearbox and sorted most the wiring last night.
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She turned over today. But didn't fire. :(
We think that it is down to a crank sensor. I was supplied with a three wire sensor like is on the m44 anyway. But i think its a hall affect one rather than an inductive one.
I do however have another sensor to test with tomorrow. I just have to lengthen it a bit. Ill then see if i get a signal on the scope
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And today it was running!!
Was incorrect sensor.
Booked in for mapping in two weeks time.
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Glad you figured out the issue without much fuss!!
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Awesome!!
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Great news, how does it feel?
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She sounds. Its going to be ran in on the rollers. So had a quick blip on the throttle (nothing major) and sounds pretty good. Sounds standard idling. Exactly how I want it tbh!!but the figures shall tell all!!
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I'm amazed at the level of control Sion, I'd be going around the block the moment it started!
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Trust me Rohan im dying to take it out! Im leaving the prop on until the car is more or less ready for the rollers.
Got the front end on now and fitted new wings as old ones were rusty as are all the wings on e36s!.
Got a few things to do this week. Sort a fuel leak from above the tank. Fit a rollover valve to the fuel tank as im getting rid of the charcoal filter and fit a oil temp guage.
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Which oil temp guage m3?
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Not sure.
I was thinking aftermarket and fita guage to the centre console. And after the rolling road im thinking of fitting a pressure guage and a pressure warning light. As this is a competition engine its always going to be on the limit.
Would m3 involve changing dash?
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No it wouldn't, not on the e36. You already have a pressure warning light!
It just replaces the fuel economy guage, fairly common for e36! You'd probably be able to get the 8k tacho with oil temp guage!
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I dont have a fuel economy guage. And I need it done within a week.
And ive read that standard warning lights come on to late. And damage will be done by the time its on. Maybe its not true on bmw's
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You don't have the fuel economy guage below the tacho? True a week is pushing it badly.
What did your engine builder say your new redline is?
Standard warning lights come on late, where did you read that?
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I think he means the pressure in which the oil needs to drop to trip the light is too low. Engine damage has already occurred by the time its illuminated.
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You could easily replace the standard sensors for more sensitive ones.
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It is definitely a possibility! Ill see what happens when it gets mapped. Ive got a temp guage on the way so that is now sorted. And after the mapping ill sort out what to do about pressure guage and cooler
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The warning gauges would be just normally open or normally closed switches that change stat at a pre determined point, buying a different gauge sender would be all that's required!
E36 m3 gauge clusters aren't too expensive either. E30 ones are poisonous to buy.
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10 or so hours and she'll be getting mapped!!!!
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10 or so hours and she'll be getting mapped!!!!
And???
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Car is still with the mapper. Hwe ran into some problems so he had to change a chip in the ecu etc.
So hes calling me when it's done.
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FWIW, I just looked at an E36 M42 lower manifold. It doesn't have the breather cups and uses standard-sized injectors with the small holes. Looks like you have it running already, tho. Great news!
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thanks for the info benz-tech! yes its running
she made 170bhp and more than 160ft-lbs of torque ( I say more as he didnt know what the figure was at the time but he knew it was more than a 2.0ltr m42 that made 160 on his rollers) so ill get accurate figures tomorrow!
abit dissapointed with power figure but everybody says torque is what you need in the rallying I do. So im excited!
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so here is the graph. 167bhp and 161ft-lbs
ive given it a quick blast earlier today and im very happy. now ive driven id say its pretty much what I was expecting.
I think with itbs and abit more of a aggressive cam (not much as the torque is fantastic) it should be a brilliant engine.
And it sounds fantastic inside!! and with the e36 box and 4.45 diff it gets to 100mph in absalutly no time at all!! quite scary really!
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/sionhardy/13035477_10201745028944998_192491841_o_zpsyjoxw2at.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/sionhardy/media/13035477_10201745028944998_192491841_o_zpsyjoxw2at.jpg.html)
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Hey Sion,
Great that you finally got it tuned!! Are those numbers actual power or rear wheel power?
Maybe you could post your complete build here again? Crank, rods, valves, cams, etc...
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Hey Sion what cams are you using?
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I havent spoken to the guy that mapped as I/family run a breakdown recovery company and one of our drivers was passing sohe picked the car for me. so im abit confused with the graph but I would have thought the figures were at the flywheel. the bottom table shows lower figures of around 130bhp. not sure on torque.
itcurrently has these regrinds http://www.kentcams.com/product-details/98/Camshaft/Camshaft/BM48-Sports-Injection/ (http://www.kentcams.com/product-details/98/Camshaft/Camshaft/BM48-Sports-Injection/)
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From what I have seen of your build I would say that's at the wheels!
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thinking down the line here...
what sort of power increase would I be looking at when I fit ITBs to this engine? and possibly with a different spec cam
such as second cam down http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/BMW_318iS__318ti__Z3__138hp_.html (http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/BMW_318iS__318ti__Z3__138hp_.html)
First event for the engine in three weeks time. running like a dream at the moment! very impressed.
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thinking down the line here...
what sort of power increase would I be looking at when I fit ITBs to this engine? and possibly with a different spec cam
such as second cam down http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/BMW_318iS__318ti__Z3__138hp_.html (http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/BMW_318iS__318ti__Z3__138hp_.html)
First event for the engine in three weeks time. running like a dream at the moment! very impressed.
I can't say an exact number, but I would guess quite a bit. The E36 manifold seems to get restrictive around the ~4000 RPM mark, which even on your dyno is the point that curve becomes less steep. I would hazard a guess that if you were to match your build with a decent intake plenum volume you could probably just extend the power curve up in a straight line to 6000RPM. If you're pedantic about getting everything right you could probably do it without losing anything below 4000RPM, but I reckon realistically you'll probably trade 4~5% down low for 5~10% up top on a decent setup. On my stock internals setup the ITBs scaled up by ~22% in some places, and 16% peak power being pedantic about EVERY detail. I'm not sure how that would translate to a modified engine though, but I imagine it would be similar with a good tune.
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so did the first event with the new engine over the weekend. ran like a dream!
It pulls very well! barely feel anything when coming to hills.
few small issues though, (not engine related) have a noisy gearbox, handbrake was awful and I need to do a few adjustments to the suspension.
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not posted on my topic for a while.
nothing much has changed to the engine, its been stripped once as it was leaking, seal between the head and rear bottom timing cover, due to the large headgasket theseal was abit to thin. so the only thing we could think of was rhoderseal under and above the seal. (not ideal) but it has worked!!
Now I have a leak from the oil filter housing. :-[
Also the car is fitted with a 5.43:1 read diff. it is insanely quick!! ok it will only do around 90mph max but its all i need.
what would you guys recommend to run as spark plugs?
....have also been offered solid lifters and a set of cams.....
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Hi
Just thought i'd update my thread.
So around 2 weeks ago. I did my last event in this 8th overall out of about 85 starters so was very happy.
But on monday after the weekend i had a guy come to look at it.
So the car has now been sold. And ive moved onto a vw golf mk2 with a 2.0 16v engine which will be getting the same treatment as the bmw had 8)
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its a shame you sold it, what are you going to do with the other shell?
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it is a shame, it was a good car. Ive been curious about front wheel drive however.
the shell is in storage for when i come across a cheap enough m3 engine engine (euro s50/2 hybrid)