M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: sjoerd on September 14, 2014, 02:16:54 PM
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hey, i'm planning to tune my m42 a bit next year and i'm searchin some info now..
i'm going to put Dbilas sports cams and itb's on my m42. alot of people here said the best is to buy the dbilas chip that tunes it but now i was wondering what the Alpha/N - control unit http://www.dbilas-shop.com/Products/Engine-management/-alpha;-N-control-unit/BMW/Electronic-Alpha-N-control-units-BMW-1-8-16V-M42B18-1-9-16V-M44B19::6381.html does? i deleteat's my mass air flow meter so bether air flow and some bether performence/throtle respons/bether sound? and if i buy the Alpha/N - control unit do i still need the dbilas chip? and when the mas air flow meter is gone how do i filter my air? (i realy don't like those cone filters). and do i need somthing else to instal the Alpha/N - control unit?
and what are the other advantages exept that there is no air sensor anymore? (bether tuneability?)
thx guys :)
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Hi
When you say deleted mass air flow, how?
Afm to map?
Cheers Rohan
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i don't know i'm asking u guys :p
Alpha/N - control unit says : alpha/N - control unit for driving without air flow meter of electronic injection systems.
Simulates to the ECU the air flow meter or the air mass sensor. and i don't realy know how it works.. instal the alpha/N and remove the air meter and put a filter straight on the airbox like they do with e30 m3's witj carbon airboxes..
i realy don't have a idee how it works and if i yust need to install the Alpa/N to remove air meter or do i need to buy other senosors..
grtz
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i yust want to know if it is just as simpel as installing the Alpha/N - control unit and getting rid of my air meter?
and can i use COP with this alpha/N
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Interesting, not sure if its tuneable or if its just a pre set program. My assumption is it just simulates the AFM so the chip is still needed. For that cost, might as well install a standalone instead.
Alpha-N means using the throttle position for load instead of MAP/MAF/AFM.
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Interesting, not sure if its tuneable or if its just a pre set program. My assumption is it just simulates the AFM so the chip is still needed. For that cost, might as well install a standalone instead.
Alpha-N means using the throttle position for load instead of MAP/MAF/AFM.
and what are the advantages with a stand alone unit? (much more expensive)?
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have a look here:
http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=18412.0 (http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=18412.0)
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Just my .02
Get a standalone system like wazzu70 mentioned. You will have complete control over your engine. Here is a synopsis from our M3 list back in the day.
Enjoy...
Cheers,
~Ralph
Alpha N, first of all from a terminology perspective, came from the mathematical representation of the Greek symbol, alpha, to mean throttle angle and N to denote RPM. Engineers used these letters to represent the equations of this system and hence the name.
When you look at reasonably modern engine management system (ok, just pick something understandable like Ford EEC-IV or Bosch Motronic), there are many inputs that go into fine monitoring of engine variables to ultimately do two things:
1) control fuel injection pulse width
2) timing advance
Generally speaking, as you have more closed loop information and control, you have more ability to deal with variance. If you know exactly how much air is really coming into the motor in volume and you know what the exhaust byproduct looks like, you can use that information to alter fuel delivery and ignition timing. So yeah, you can actually drop a cam in a car with a good engine management system and have it run within reasonable (though not optimal) power ranges.
Why not optimal? Because, at least both engine management systems I mention above, bypass things such as O2 sensor input when running at WOT (Wide Open Throttle). At WOT, the engine uses maps in the ROM (read only memory) to give predetermined timing and fuel. Once your cam has changed (and obviously I'm just using a cam as an example), its profile may be better suited for a different predetermined set of WOT timing and fuel values.
So what is Alpha N for and why would you want it? Well frankly, its use is rather limited. Alpha-N provides no intake limitations (restrictions) since no air is measured beyond the inherent throttle angle. If you are running a race motor with a high lift, fast rising cam, you want all the air velocity you can get and that means as little restriction as possible. Motors like these, frankly, idle like shit.... they make no sense on the street. Recall that modern engine management systems gave us great low RPM performance (for those of you old enough to have owned carburetor cars) because of the ability to closely monitor sensors and determine close to optimal timing and fuel injection pulse width. You don't get that with Alpha N ... hence another street detriment.
Why is Alpha N so intolerant of engine configuration changes, or environment changes? Because its approximation of real air volume (just using the throttle angle and maybe barometric pressure and air temperature) no interest in exhaust measurement (closed loop) and not much else, it runs off of a table which effectively is indexed by throttle position versus RPM with possible compensations from barometric pressure and intake temperature. How do you build the maps? Simple ... spend hours on the dyno with expensive EGT sensors and develop the specific maps for the specific engine configuration until you get it optimal or give up and say it is good enough. Now you have a completely static system highly tuned to its configuration. Change anything and it's a no go. Even something like the exhaust system...
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so alpha N is not so good for the street if i'm reading correctly?
and this is what i actualy need? http://www.dbilas-shop.com/Products/Engine-management/Engine-Management/engine-control-units/dbTronic-4000-ECU-stand-alone-plastic-housing-without-Barometer-with-Software::6336.html and this is programmable? and this will let my engine run more smoothly than alpha/N and does not depend on hot ore cold ore other variables?
i'm a real rooky in al that electronic/programming stuff :s
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It's not ideal for the street but could be done.
Find out what your local tuner likes to use for stand alone systems and go with that one.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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It's not ideal for the street but could be done.
Find out what your local tuner likes to use for stand alone systems and go with that one.
Cheers,
~Ralph
why isn't is ideal for street use?
we don't realy have alot of tuners here in belgium, i would need to go to holland (about 800km) to get to e proffesional tuner so i wold realy like to know almost evrethig before i start this project
grtz
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It doesn't compensate for temperature or altitude.
I would first research what your tuners like to use. Then make your decision as to what direction you will go.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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It doesn't compensate for temperature or altitude.
I would first research what your tuners like to use. Then make your decision as to what direction you will go.
Cheers,
~Ralph
aaah, okey.
i just maild those guy's and i will call them tomorow but can you advice me somthing that is perfect for street use and alot of people use on theire m42'?
grtz
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There are so many brands out there to use. That's why you need to see what your tuner feels comfortable using. I personally have Megasquirt on my M42. I have ViPec on my M3. You can also use LifeRacing, Motec, Haltec, and the list goes on......LOL
You really need to talk to your guys!:-)
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Go megasquirt:
This guy builds PnP systems and you can get them setup how you want.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=204722
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Go megasquirt:
This guy builds PnP systems and you can get them setup how you want.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=204722
okey thanks :)
Dederic Motorsports Plug and Play Standalone Engine Management System for m42, m50nv, m50tu, s50 <- so this is the one i need? (perfect for street use and pragrammable) and nothing else is needed?
grtz
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It doesn't compensate for temperature or altitude.
I would first research what your tuners like to use. Then make your decision as to what direction you will go.
Cheers,
~Ralph
Hi Ralph, I have to disagree here as this may not be true for all A/N systems. I have a link ecu a varient of your vipec. In A/N mode the MAP port acts as a barometric measurement and correction, and there is a inlet air temp sensor for temp correction. I daily my car in traffic, open road,summer,winter and I behaves very well with this setup.
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MLM,
I agree with you:-) Sorry for the confusion. It may not be all the different units out there but there are definitely some. I should have said some. Then I should have said, the more control and options you want, the more expensive it gets...LOL Unless you stick with MS which is very reasonable.
He also wanted to use the Dbilas A-N control unit set up and you couldn't tune that without getting more equipment i.e.. an emulator. It's still a chip based system. I had a chip based A-N on my M3 back in the day and it was rough. They now have A-N systems for tuning fuel but the spark is still chip based. Then you get into the full stand alone and that's where the knowledge and the $$$ comes into play with "some" units. 8) Running "true" Alpha N and running MAP are two different worlds. I won't run A-N on a street car unless it's blended like you're saying and it's not on the stock ECU. It doesn't have the stability as MAP does. Any change in altitude and your tuner had better have made all of the necessary changes in multiple maps or Kaboom! This made all the maps run way richer than necessary because it was an extrapolation of what could be and not what actually was. That also meant loss of power being on the excessive rich side to be safe mentality. Also, any change you make to the engine, i.e. cams, air filter, exhaust etc... you have to retune the engine to compensate for that. That's not fun for a street car. MAP or a blend would be much better suited for the street.
If you are going MAP, with adding the ITB's that he wanted, this creates the issue of taking the sample from all 4 inlets instead of just 1 or each set of ITB's. So you need to build a balance bar to draw from for your sample for a stable signal. It's all in how you want to tune the engine.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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and do you roughly know how mucht a decent stand allone will cost me? it doesn't have to be one with a lot of options, if i can drive without my air flow meter and if it's tuneable/programmable and good for street use it's gooed for me.
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Go megasquirt:
This guy builds PnP systems and you can get them setup how you want.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=204722
okey thanks :)
Dederic Motorsports Plug and Play Standalone Engine Management System for m42, m50nv, m50tu, s50 <- so this is the one i need? (perfect for street use and pragrammable) and nothing else is needed?
grtz
I think it is 99% PnP so you would need to a vacuum line for a MAP sensor and replace o2 sensor with wideband. I would email the maker at the email provided in the post to ask the exact items required for base MS2/3.
MS is a stand alone system that is open source and highly supported in the online community. Buying a PnP system will allow you go to MAP based tuning for the best price and most room for upgrade in the future. MS has functionality to help you tune the vehicle and is understood by most tuners so should be able to be tuned easily.
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Interesting, not sure if its tuneable or if its just a pre set program. My assumption is it just simulates the AFM so the chip is still needed. For that cost, might as well install a standalone instead.
Alpha-N means using the throttle position for load instead of MAP/MAF/AFM.
a stand allone cost allot more, not? still nit wide band lambda sensor? al the cables and shit, the tune..
or am i wrong?
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A standalone could probably be had for less cost, but there is work involved. There are people running M42 now based on many systems so you should be able to get the trigger settings easily enough.
You will need to tune/have it tuned.
The best thing to do is find someone who you want to tune the engine and see what they prefer. Results are always better using what your tuner recommends. If you are going to tune it then the options are more open.
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A standalone could probably be had for less cost, but there is work involved. There are people running M42 now based on many systems so you should be able to get the trigger settings easily enough.
You will need to tune/have it tuned.
The best thing to do is find someone who you want to tune the engine and see what they prefer. Results are always better using what your tuner recommends. If you are going to tune it then the options are more open.
some guys i know told me a full functional stand allone+ tuned engine wil cost me easely 2500euro, are they right? cause non of tha ever had a stand alone..
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Sjoerd....
You need to talk to your tuner directly. They will tell you what your tune and unit will cost.
You can probably get a Megasquirt unit shipped to you and ready to go for about 700euro. Tuning is then whatever your tuner charges and how good they are. With a start up map already installed, you could be looking at 4-5hrs to tune and another 700euro. So I would say less than half of what your guys told you. All depends on the tuner and their comfort level of the unit. IF they don't know MS at all then there is a slight learning curve and that costs money so it's important to talk to them first. Some tuners won't touch certain units because they don't work with them and they don't know them.
Please make the phone call or email your tuner and see how they can help you first before you drive yourself crazy :o .....lol
Cheers,
~Ralph
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it's to late, my head is mest up by beemers :p
i found a good tuner (KMS) some of there cars -> https://www.youtube.com/user/kronenburgautosport/videos
he is making a NA 200hp+ rally e30 318is now and he is verry helpful. thanks a lot guys for al the info!
grtz
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Awesome, You Made the right decision to go Stand alone!
-TG
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just one more question :p
is stand allone a stupid upgrade whan the engine will be pretty stock? i will only get itb's,cams, COP and maybe bigger injectors if this is possible without upgrading pistons ect... i won't rise te rpms higher than 7250 caus it's mainly a street car and i don't whant solid lifters.
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No its not stupid. I have a standalone on my car and the only engine mod is bigger cams. I got rid of the AFM since its a MAP based system.
Throttle response is much improved, engine is tuned properly for my setup, I can datalog to see what the engine is doing for problem solving. When I make future upgrades I can adapt the tune to take full advantage of them.
With the mod list you said, its a good candidate for standalone!
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No its not stupid. I have a standalone on my car and the only engine mod is bigger cams. I got rid of the AFM since its a MAP based system.
Throttle response is much improved, engine is tuned properly for my setup, I can datalog to see what the engine is doing for problem solving. When I make future upgrades I can adapt the tune to take full advantage of them.
With the mod list you said, its a good candidate for standalone!
okey thanks :D stand allone doesn't make the car more unreliable?
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No a stand alone in itself dosnt make a car unreliable. A poor tune on the standalone or poor installation might. That and the fact you will probably drive the car much harder...