M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: MrPhatBob on January 07, 2014, 04:29:59 AM
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Although the car came with the M44 engine I found a well priced Z3 M42 engine as I want to see if I can get this thing to rev, I put a 4.3:1 LSD in the car and came to the conclusion that while more power would be good, more revs would be better.
The plans are roughly:
- Wossner 86.5mm 2 ring slipper pistons (S50B32)
- Steel rods - rebushed for 21mm piston pin
- ARP fasteners
- Solid lifters
- Worked head
- Cams TBC
- S50 throttle bodies
- TTV 5kg flywheel
I'm keeping the stock stroke, so with an over square engine using light components I should have a light revvy engine.
Checking the S50 ITBs fitment:
(http://i.imgur.com/5zY6pTOl.jpg)
Into the hot wash:
(http://i.imgur.com/MHwThBDl.jpg)
Drill and tap the oil gallery bung:
(http://i.imgur.com/aB4AjFkl.jpg)
Trial fit an M14 threaded bung:
(http://i.imgur.com/FXCypcrl.jpg)
Cleaning the oil way galleries:
(http://i.imgur.com/UzrJ2N9l.jpg)
The questions I have are really surrounding the choice of pistons and rods, I'm fairly happy with the Wossner pistons because they have a lot in common with S42 pistons, but the rods are a bit of an issue, I've looked at Eagle, but they state that they weigh 540gm I weighed the stock M42 rods and they come in at 547.1gm, so thats not significant enough to warrant purchase. ZRP rods claim to be 483gm, but what other options are there?
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M44 stock rods are said to be 100g lighter than early M42, but as your are coming from a Z3 they should be of the light type.
if somebody could weight early M42 rods we could get direct comparison.
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According to Metric Mechanic's M42 booklet the early M42 rods are 610gm, so these are the light type. This M42 version has piston squirters, chain upgrade and all that sort of good stuff.
The weight of the ZRP rods is good, the Metric Mechanic I beam rods are said to be 475gm but are 2mm shorter, with the low compression height (around -0.5mm) of the piston I'm going to run out of chain tension if I deck the block by that amount.
I'm being challenged on my rod choice by the people who own the workshop I'm lucky enough to be using, they build high-end race and classic engines so use known top name manufacturers
(like this hand finished piston on a Pankl rod (http://i.imgur.com/9wzFUhkl.jpg))
Their concern is that many of these "new" budget brands is that they may be a costly mistake - buy cheap buy twice.
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I weighed each rod I was anticipating on using: (the weights are with bearings). Metric mechanic 610 gram is weighing the ROD only, not the bearings or the bolts.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/whitebred21/Mobile%20Uploads/20140105_111540_RichtoneHDR_zps56c9e6a2.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/whitebred21/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140105_111540_RichtoneHDR_zps56c9e6a2.jpg.html)
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Good point on adding the bearings into the mix. The engine builders reckon that a good few grams could come off the standard rod with some judicious use of the grinder, removing the casting marks down the side, rounding the shoulders on the big end, but its not going to lose a massive amount of mass.
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Pauter also makes a 140mm rod.
The lower end rods arent horrible, you just have to double check the machining. Make sure your big and small ends are round and the correct diameter. Thats usually the issue with them is lack of machining quality/QA.
Most of the cheapo rods are only 135mm anyway which wont work for you.
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Well these are the ZRP rods: http://www.forged-pistons.co.uk/webshop/zrp-h-beam-forged-connecting-rods/b-m-w/bmw-m42-m44-r-bmw-002h/ I'd put them at "mid-price" range.
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Not sure what length rod you're looking for but if you need to drop down to help with your calculations then you can use an aftermarket equivalent of the Honda 1.8L VTEC B18C (GSR) 138mm rod. You're also ready to go since the S50B32 piston already has the 21mm wrist pin.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Thanks Ralf, I'd seen a mention of that type of rod being used - the problem is that it will mean a 1.95mm block skim
- M42 Rod length = 139.9 M42 Piston compression height = 31.65 (139.9 + 31.65 = 171.55)
- B18 Rod length = 138 S50B32 Piston compression height = 31.6 (138 + 31.6 = 169.5)
I don't know how this will effect the timing chain at this stage, it doesn't *seem* to be much, but I'll talk to the machinist tomorrow and see what he reckons.
Getting a rod rebushed down to 21mm will not be too great an issue if I stick with M4x rods.
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MrPhatBob.....please list your complete build. Your numbers seem slightly off.
S50B30 US 32.8mm CH/86mm bore
S52B32 US 31.0mm CH/86.4mm bore
S50B30 Euro 31.6mm CH/86mm bore
S50B32 Euro 32.3mm CH/86.4mm bore
Position = (Stroke/2) - rod length - compression height
212.15mm = (81mm/2) + 140mm + 32.3mm
212.15 = 40.5 + 140 + 32.3
212.15 = 212.8
This tells you that the piston needs to be shaved .65mm to return back to stock location. But what will your compression be??
Euro 3.2L pistons gave a 11.3:1 compression
Just food for thought....
HTH
Cheers,
~Ralph
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The 31.6mm compression height is what Wossner state for their 2 ring slipper piston I think that this is the difference in your and my figures?
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Ok so that puts you in a position for the math again..... You're going to come up slightly short.
212.15mm = (81mm/2) + 140mm + 31.6mm
212.15 = 40.5 + 140 + 31.6
212.15 = 212.10
So you're .05mm short using that piston. If you had the stock 3.2L Euro 32.3mm piston you'd be ok :-\
Not sure how being only .05mm short will effect the chamber in the head for combustion. I'm not that technical. You will have to ask your people you're working with or maybe someone on the list will chime in. You are really close ;) to making it work. I'm still not sure that decking the block is the answer but ask around.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Yep 0.5mm short using stock rods, 1.9mm short using Honda B18 rods.
Decking the block is something that will be happening anyway, they use a flat bed grinder to give the flattest of flat surfaces, and usually use a thicker MLS gasket to make the difference. We'll see about the possible depths later today.
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Nothing amazing to report on yesterday's work as the job was all about measuring ports and modelling them in a CAD Package, so that we can get the head sent off to Jondel Motorsport for port work while we're machining up the
(http://i.imgur.com/YIydFEOl.jpg)
The ports and throttle bodies have been measured and modeled in a CAD package. The surfaces were then printed onto A3 paper, the holes punched, and the paper copy checked for dimensional accuracy.
The cut out hole on the left is the profile of the port, on the right is the profile of the throttle body.
We can now machine the adaptor plate from the measurements. If you look closely the ports are about 1.1mm larger than the throttle body, it should be possible to blend this nicely with about 25mm thick aluminium.
I've not done any accurate measuring for about 5 years so I was quite happy with the end result - although it needed a significant amount of input from the Precision engineer who was helping me ;)
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From the factory the inlet manifold ports are usually slightly undersized. This is to eliminate the chance of manufacturing variation making the ports line up poorly.
If you think about direction of flow, its a lot better for the inlet manifold port to be unobstructed by the head. If the inlet manifold port was the same size or slightly bigger than the head port, you would have a small lip...and that would cause some issues!
Still, since you know what head and what inlet manifold you will use...you can match them with higher confidence!
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You should see the mismatch on the stock manifold - they're barely even the same shape! I reckon there's good gains to be made for those who are sticking with the standard manifold if they were to port match.
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Okay so Wossner are not interested in splitting a set of 6 pistons, so I need to find another piston set :(
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CP, Wiseco, Diamond, JE, ect. all make pistons. You can even buy a set of 4 :)
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Cheers, trouble is it only looked like Wossner did the S42 two ring slipper piston :(
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Unless you can convince two other M42 guys with much deeper pockets than I to go in on a set of 12 pistons...
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Any of those companies can make anything you want. They make two ring pistons as well. Not sure what a "slipper" piston, but Im assuming you are meaning less friction from one less compression ring.
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I've been speaking to a UK distributor for JE Pistons about getting 4 US S50 pistons, but I can most likely get a UK manufacturer to make them for less than the cost + freight + import duty + tax. Especially as the piston for the GM C20XE is close to perfect all except for the valve angles.
One of the engine builders pointed out that OEM S50 pistons are not exactly "standard" in the sense that they're pretty high spec in comparison to lowly engines. So we're getting prices on Mahle 86.4mm S50B30 pistons.
In the good news section of the program, Jondel Race Engines have taken a look at the M42 head, quoted me a good price and say that my BHP predictions are more than achievable.
Slipper Pistons are an established term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piston#Slipper_pistons you'll know what they are when you see them.
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Thanks, I looked up slipper piston and I knew what it was from looking at the pictures. Its essentially maximum reduced weight. Learn something new every day!
CP, JE, ect. Offer slipper pistons they all have their own unique name for them :)
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Well I'm now waiting on prices for a set of JE Pistons from Cambridge Motorsport, they're the UK dealer and work with MASS Race Engines who're kind enough to let me use all of their equipment. We'll see how that pans out.
BTW I just realised that you used to be on the VEMS forum I ran.
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:) I figured there wernt that many PhatBobs out there!
The VEMS is working nice on my car. Just need to keep it together long enough to rack up some miles!
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So I got prices from the Mahle supplier near me and the price for standard S50B32(EU) pistons was close to the same as JE Pistons - so I ordered a set of 11.5:1 S50B32 US pistons as they have the 22mm piston pin.
According to the scales at Mass Race Engines my current piston and rod assembly weighs 1032.1gm
Using the JE pistons with ZRP rods I'm looking at a weight of ~788gm
Resulting in a reduction of 244.1gm each, meaning 976.4gm for all four - that's a good reduction in weight for the whole rotating assembly.
My next concerns are: front pulley and water pump cavitation at higher than standard RPM
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You could switch to an electric water pump (EWP) and never have to worry abut cavitation, regardless of rpms.
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Yeah that's one option I was thinking of, there are underdrive pulleys available for the M4x engine to avoid cavitation. Then we'll have a cost benefits analysis to work out which option to go for.
I've seen that Mocal do a take off plate for the oil filter so that I could use a remote filter and oil cooler setup.
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Now for lifters...
From what I've read these should be the right type:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Audi-VW-1-8-2-0-16V-racing-solid-lifters-cam-followers-tappets-set-16pcs-/111142281592?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19e098a178
Am I correct? I hope so as they're really well priced.
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IIRC the lifters were from an 8v VW engine.
Websites like Catcams have the BMW lifter dimensions and you could compare to the 16v VW to see if its a match
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I measured the lifters from the M42
Diameter: 34.99mm
Height: 26.00mm
Foot depth: 13.97mm
They show the same lifter specs for the 8V
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audi-VW-1-6-1-8-2-0-8V-racing-solid-lifters-cam-followers-tappets-set-8pcs/121178191705?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D286%26meid%3D4280270231920223192%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1048%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D111142281592%26
So that looks to be the same, what I don't know about is the lash caps that sit between the lifter and the top of the valve.
Oh, and I went to buy ACL bearings today - ACL have gone out of business so no joy there.
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VAC sells lash caps, but of course its never the cheapest option.
Also make sure to determine if you have 6mm or 7mm valve stems :)
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6mm :D
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BTW, you might find this interesting regarding the EWP:
http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=6419.msg121375#msg121375
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Nice one Colin, I'll give that some reading tomorrow at work.
ACL Bearings have arrived (http://i.imgur.com/YW8I5Ehl.jpg)
The next blight on my horizon are the oil squirters, I managed to loose a few of them in the hot wash (yeah I know, but they looked like they were press fit and that turned out not to be the case )
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At least you realized you lost them. There have been MANY BMWengines put back together and run with a few missing squirters....and 0 oil pressure because of it!
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It was only because I was washing the block and admiring the jet of cleaning solution that was squirting into the cylinder, I mused for a while on what method of controlling oil pressure they'd employed - and that's when it hit me.
Its the cost of the bloody things that I find upsetting.
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I can understand frustration at parts cost!!
Im very excited to see how your engine turns out!
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There are issues around feature creep with it... I'm drawing up a water pump blanking plate after colin86325's post.
The water jet cutters http://www.h2oprofiling.co.uk/ have just texted me to say that my ITB to M42 head plate has been finished, so I'll have that to play with tomorrow.
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I got my hands on the adaptor plate from H2O Profiling so I was able to start mounting the S50 bodies.
(http://i.imgur.com/2xDdG2wl.jpg)
Cut three pockets to allow the M7 bolts to recess below the mating surface of the plate.
Cut four pockets 9.5mm dia 4mm deep, then tapped an M6x1mm thread to locate the ITBs on the plate.
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is it the definitive intake runner length?
because all I could read on the subjet calls for longer intake runner to be able to tune the engine properly.
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As I understand it the runner length is dictated by the length of the inlet trumpet, these ITBs normally bolt directly onto the head, in this case they're 16mm further from the ports than normal. I will consider my options for trumpets once the engine starts coming together better.
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Yeah, runner length includes the ITB assembly and trumpets. The trumpets are not shown in the picture.
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Currently I have some velocity stacks from some Weber 45 carbs, they'll not be long enough to make much torque, there are options around, but the standard M3 ones should be plenty good enough
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I learned something. thanks guys!
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The solid lifters from FCP arrived this week:
(http://i.imgur.com/AZchSmwl.jpg)
They appear to be good quality and are coated in what we think is a Dry Lubricant Coating (DLC).
The standard hydraulic lifters are 62gm
The FCP solid lifters are 50.3gm
Until I measure the lobe clearance I can't weigh the lash caps to get an accurate total weight saving.
They fit in the cam carriers just fine:
(http://i.imgur.com/nXBB5bIl.jpg)
And I've found that Toyota 4A-GE lash caps fit my 6mm valves, so they'll be ground to size once the cam is re-profiled.
On the subject of valves I did some weighing of valve plus, spring, cap and collets:
In: 109.6gm
Ex: 109.3gm
As a comparison I weighed the inlet of a Honda Formula 3 engine and that came in at 126.5gm, which is a fair bit heavier - although the valves are a good few mm bigger.
I also started looking at the S50 bodies - this time to see how I was going to modify the throttle shaft, and to check that the centres of the ITBs bearings matched up.
(http://i.imgur.com/jkLZVqkl.jpg)
It leaves me with two options: Cut and machine the shaft so that it has the right profile to fit the throttle body. Or cut the middle of the shaft out and use a drive coupling to join them. The second is the easiest - but the machinist might not let me do it!
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I thought DLC was Diamond Like Carbon coating to make parts resist wear. PTFE (teflon) coating could be Dry Lubricant Coating too. There are toom many dang TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms) out there :)
Great info as always! A coupler for the ITB shafts is easiest, but it would be nice to have a single piece shaft!
What engine management are you planning on using?
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I used DFL from Techline a while ago, its also a DLC... TLA overload. Back when God was a Boy you used to be able to get Parkerized followers and that was it.
As I say its the choice of the machinist at MASS Racing how is a mate of mine - which makes him a very harsh, abusive, critic. So its down to him what happens with the throttle shaft, and that's fine by me because everything he's told me to do so far has worked. And he makes me do the work on his machines which pushes me out of my comfort zone (normally I spec what I want and send it off).
I'll be putting a VEMS on this one, it seems silly not to when you consider how long I've been involved with the project ;)
At MASS they specialise in classic, historic and rare race engines, and have a contact who'll make custom copper head gaskets which come in cheaper than Cometic gaskets, this means getting rings machined into the head and block.
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Somehow I figured VEMS would be the ECU of choice :)
Im not sure any of my configuration will work for you unfortunately due to the different crank triggers. Please post up the primary trigger settings when you get that far.
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The S50B32 US JE Pistons arrived and were promptly weighed
(http://i.imgur.com/wXjXa0vl.jpg)
JE Piston 428.6g
OEM Piston 484.1g
Thats a reduction of 55.6g (1.96oz) per cylinder.
Onto the S50 throttle bodies, the shaft was cut down on the lathe
(http://i.imgur.com/aBNuTcWl.jpg)
Then the flat that drives the TPS cut on the mill
(http://i.imgur.com/uHiSf2tl.jpg)
And it all bolts together and works nicely
(http://i.imgur.com/SAzZ9upl.jpg)
I'm running an electric water pump so a blanking bung was machined out of nylon
(http://i.imgur.com/C7Av88Fl.jpg)
Which was sealed with "grey snot", pressed in place, and then held captive with cap heads
(http://i.imgur.com/Hzkmifnl.jpg)
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What waterpump are you looking to use? There is a discussion on bimmerforums about these on racecars. I have also read on the Nissan SR engines the waterpump cavitates at higher RPMs. Not sure if the M42 does the same thing, but an electric pump is a great way to solve the issue!
ITBs look great!
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The exact make has not been decided yet, it will either be a Davies Craig or Bosch unit. I was undecided as to what to do, as the machinist who did 99% of the work above makes impellers that don't cavitate at high RPM - but a well known race engine builder was up at the dyno with a Ford Zetec engine running a Davies Craig unit, and a brief chat with him convinced me.
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Its been a while since the last update - but thats not to say nothing has been happening...
The ZRP Rods arrived - weighed at 534.5g (OEM weighed in at 547g) 12g saving - totaling in a saving of 68.1g per cylinder when adding the piston mass.
(http://i.imgur.com/XbxYJ2Dl.jpgp)
The block was chemically cleaned, so it needed a spot of paint to stop things rusting.
(http://i.imgur.com/ubSmPSSl.jpg)
Next up - mains clearancing with Plastigauge - torquing down the caps to 60nm.
(http://i.imgur.com/5iJEijsl.jpg)
And then pulling the caps off to measure the spread - and the results were good! Close enough to 0.050mm on every journal.
(http://i.imgur.com/k2O9S0Kl.jpgp)
So as thats good we need to see how the piston/rod combo works out in the block.
(http://i.imgur.com/1lLUSmAl.jpg)
Leveling the piston using the magic tool means I can safely measure the piston to deck distance.
(http://i.imgur.com/mu6tIfXl.jpg)
Then repeating the same measurement using the same piston and rod assembly at the far end of the block.
(http://i.imgur.com/EenCTeMl.jpg)
Result @TDC cylinder 1: 0.0476" above deck. cylinder 4: 0.0465" above deck. So I'm going to have to grind the deck flat.
For my metric users out there the piston was 1.32mm proud of the block, which I expected to occur because the compression heights differ in the S50B32 and M42 pistons... And it reminded me why I'd bought the 11.5:1 JE pistons - once machined flat I'm going to be sniffing around the 12:1 compression ratio (if my maths is right - and it seldom is).
Next up I need to check the valve pockets for clearance, so get TDC sorted with the degree wheel.
(http://i.imgur.com/Qfn8bRTl.jpg)
I didn't photograph measuring the valve depths - because it was hectic, I know, its wrong, but we need to be grown-up and learn to cope with disappointments in life...
Inlet clearance:
12deg ATDC => 4.31mm
20deg ATDC => 6.32mm
Exhaust clearance:
12deg BTDC => 1.50mm
20deg BTDC => 3.47mm
So far so good - its looking like my compression will be close on 12:1 and I can run some aggressive cam profiles.
We were comparing this engine with the Cosworth BDG engine which one of the engine builders used to build at Cos. they made 212bhp from a 1.6litre engine. Similar bore/stroke combination, exact same rod ratio, similar valve angles, same compression ratio... Its nice because I'd like to make 200bhp from this build, the possibility that I could make it is what drives me...
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Looks good! What compression height did you end up going with on the JE pistons, stock s50b32 US 31 compression height? Also, what rod length did you end up chosing?
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Stock S50B32 US piston compression height and stock M42 rod length.
The bench that I'm doing this on has a disassembled M10 engine on it, we noticed that the mains bolts for both engines are exactly the same, as are the rear crank seal carrier and seal.
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I'm shocked to see that your setup was above deck height and by a whopping 1.32mm? How much had you taken off the block already? On my stock block with the same setup (81mm crank, s52 pistons, 140mm rods) I was below deck. However, using the 83.5 crank I was above deck (you can see the picture on page one of my thread.)
The stock m42 pistons are 31.65mm ch
The stock s52 pistons are 31mm ch
So with that being said then the m42 pistons would have been 1.92mm above deck? I must be missing something :o
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I am clearly missing something as I put the pistons and rods in to measure how much I needed to remove from the block.
Unless I have somehow stumbled upon an M42 that had a longer stroke crank - I've not measured the throw...
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Check the crank, the m42 crank will have 81 stamped on it and the m44 crank will have 83.5 stamped on it. From the pic you posted it looks like it says 81.
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S50B30 US 32.8mm CH/86mm bore
S52B32 US 31.0mm CH/86.4mm bore
S50B30 Euro 31.6mm CH/86mm bore
S50B32 Euro 32.3mm CH/86.4mm bore
Position = (Stroke/2) - rod length - compression height
212.15mm = (81mm/2) + 140mm + 31mm
212.15 = 40.5 + 140 + 31
212.15 = 211.5
This tells you that the piston is down inside the bore by ( -.65mm)
212.15= (83.5/2) + 140 + 31
212.15= 41.75 +140 +31
212.15= 212.75
This tells you that the piston is above the block by ( .60mm)
Maybe you can do a quick measure on your New pistons to see if they are at 31mm CH?? Do the same for the rods and make sure they're 140mm center to center.
Did you already deck the block? How much did you take off?
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Lots of good info in here.
The pistons he is using are higher compression than stock if I read correctly, which probably accounts for some additional compression height.
This is why you have to measure things! Savesa lot of headaches and guessing later on!
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I think that all measuring should be done again from the beginning.
You can raise compression by simply having less of a dish (less cc's) in the piston. It only takes a couple of cc's in the dish to make a significant difference in compression ratio without changing anything else.
I have to agree with Nick that this really does come down to measuring things. I would measure the piston CH first and see if you got the right piston. The dish looks ok from the pic. Then measure the block deck height. Should be 212mm.
That would be where I would start.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Yes, I have seen people sent pistons with the wrong specs before. Unfortunately its not all that unusual :(
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I'll be over there tomorrow.
The rods were 140mm when I checked them, it has to come down to the compression height.
Lots of good info on the crank - I shall have a good old check.
The block has yet to have been decked - we'll see how much I have to take off it to get it ground flat.
But all things will be measured.
Taking ~1.6mm off the top of the pistons will not be a problem - I have compression to spare, according to the compression calculation program taking that amount off the pistons will put me up at around 11.6:1, plus I have loads of valve depth with those cut outs as they are... And it will make the pistons lighter.
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Ok..........wait a sec!
If you have not decked the block and you know for sure that the rods are 140mm.......then why would a stock S52B32US piston make you stick that far out of the bore with a stock 81mm crank? :o You should be -.65mm inside the bore.
It doesn't make sense mathematically. Unless you have the wrong pistons. And if you did buy these pistons new then why couldn't you have made them to your spec to fit the motor you're building?
I would now check the CH and cc the dish to see what you actually have.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Okay so I've had all the measuring tools out this morning.
Stroke confirmed at 81mm
Rods length confirmed at 140mm
Compression height 32.8mm (32.78mm)
(Stroke/2) + rod length + compression height = 40.5 + 140.0 + 32.8 = 213.3
213.3 - 212.15 = 1.15mm above the block.
So I am going to deck the block to get it flat and then cut the pistons down about 1.3mm, crown to ring height is 6.65mm which would reduce to 5.35mm
The pockets are cut into the crown leaving a crown to ring of 4.78mm so my modifications wouldn't go below that.
As for getting them to spec, it was a bloody nightmare getting any pistons at all, none of the UK companies were quoting anything close to sensible prices, Wossner weren't interested in playing 4 cylinders and the JE piston order was, in short, rushed.
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Ok that sounds more like it. So now you should measure the piston itself and find that you are probably at 86mm which is a 3.0L piston which is correct for the 32.8mm CH. Glad you measured again to get it straight so you have peace of mind.
Just another thing to think about......This list is not only for sharing information with each other but it's also about helping each other out. If you needed a specific part and couldn't get it by you, any one of many people would have helped you get what you needed here in the US I'm sure. I will say that I would have helped you get whatever parts you needed and shipped them. That's what a community is about no matter what the distance or how many ponds we have to cross :D
Let us know....It looks like its gonna be great!!
Cheers,
~Ralph
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On a Topic which has cofused me over the years, and this may be an appropriate time to ask given the discussion on piston height and your acess to some excelent engine build knowlege. What squish clearance are you targeting and what are your thoughts on this?
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Well I asked, and the answer was - "It depends on the engine"... From what I can understand its best to try and replicate what came from the factory, the pistons came to the top of the block leaving the gasket thickness as squish clearance. There's going to be more squish area as the bigger bore pistons will see to that.
So... I put the block on the grinder
(http://i.imgur.com/GciQTvEl.jpg)
To get the whole thing flat - took 0.004" off the deck in total
Then the pistons and rods went back in
(http://i.imgur.com/CQBolXYl.jpg)
and the crown to deck heights measured - indicated by the numbers on the crowns.
These were then machined down on the lathe - a touch concerning because I was plunging a cutter into my new pistons.
While the pistons and rods were out, I checked the crank endfloat - 0.12mm which is pretty much spot on.
(http://i.imgur.com/fyB6Hisl.jpg)
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Nice clutch/flywheel!!!
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That's one from one of the race engines on the bench I was using, mine is a 5kg TTV steel flywheel with standard M44 clutch.
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Its really hard to get a proper answer on squish clearance! I think too many factors are involved to have good data to follow as a general guideline.
Following what the factory did is pretty wise. There is no way any one of us can replicate the analysis and testing performed by the OEM!
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New oil squirting jet arrived so...
There they are, the last time (for a while) that I'll see them - see if you can spot the three old ones
(http://i.imgur.com/MmkoM1ol.jpg)
Rings were gapped according to JE's spec
(http://i.imgur.com/mOMHVGwl.jpgp)
Pistons fitted using 86.5mm sleeve
(http://i.imgur.com/sDZvvsCl.jpg)
Then finally the core plugs
(http://i.imgur.com/EQ21qOel.jpg)
Unfortunately the people at BMW do not have any 92-95 M42 crankcase gasket sets, so now the fun starts trying to find them.
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Looking real clean! You just reminded me of something I forgot to check when I left the machine shop the other week...to make sure all the oil squirters were still there!
So, your final piston compression height is 31.5mm after the shave?
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Its close on 31.5mm, we took a bit off the block to get it straight so its probably closer to 31.4mm now, it became more important to get the height correct with respect to the deck.
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If it were me, I'd ditch the stock gaskets and use Yamabond (or similar) instead. I don't like having to fix leaky seals twice!
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I'll bare that in mind, but the final decision is in the hands of the engine builders who own the place I'm at, they will ruthlessly mock me until I do the right thing!
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Boil for 15 minutes
(http://i.imgur.com/NO7YnQSl.jpg)
Into the grit blaster
(http://i.imgur.com/W2KFCpXl.jpg)
After blasting
(http://i.imgur.com/MTtkKa7l.jpg)
Strip a 20V 4A-GE engine (broken ring lands on cylinder 3 - no sign of detonation which is remarkable as its a supercharged high compression engine)
(http://i.imgur.com/oyZIjq4l.jpg)
Skim the top of the cam cover to give a nice flat surface
(http://i.imgur.com/klJ2lkGl.jpg)
Get a Group-N 16V VW KR Engine running
(http://i.imgur.com/A1Toyzjl.jpg)
Spray cam cover
(http://i.imgur.com/bDnXJFpl.jpg)
Then...
Grit blast the whole damn thing back to raw ally because the wrinkle finish didn't work out at all well >:(
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That sucks!
At least you have a blast cabinet which makes it slightly less of a pain!
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That wrinkle paint is funny stuff to work with!
Did you block off any of the oil venting paths in the valve cover to stop grit and dust entering the system and falling out later on?
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The baffles are out so the only thing I'll need to do is throw the cover in the hot wash, then bottle brush out the top breather hole.
-
And it looks like this now: (http://i.imgur.com/KFWv1dDl.jpg)
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Nice, Looks Good. Sure wish i had a grit blaster and hot wash for my painting projects ;D
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So do I, I get to use this stuff at a race engine 'shop.
I seem to be able to use this stuff as long as I make myself useful, so there's: coffee making, finding and ordering obscure parts and technical support for their PCs and Engine management.
Its not hard onerous work, I had to fault find the engine management on this
(http://i.imgur.com/VuzSvc6l.jpg?1)
But I've been out of work since the Feb 18 and its fast becoming a luxury I can't afford any more!
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Finally some more development, the head has come back from Jondel Racing where the ports have been matched:
(http://i.imgur.com/4zRB8Mvl.jpg)
And the ports smoothed out, plus valve guides reduced:
(http://i.imgur.com/GdUK7sQl.jpg)
Next up will be to flat the head surface and measure the valve to piston clearances.
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I was curious how this was progressing. Keep it up :)
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Yeah it was a case of getting some work, then some money, and then proceeding with the project :)
This engine will be used to beta test a new ECU which will be interesting.
I found some spare M52 COPs today so those will be going on.
-
So you will not be using VEMS, or will you be using "expanded VEMS"? I have heard an add on board is in the works with much more I/O, CAN, ect.
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It's a completely new ECU from a different company, for me the killer punch is that it has a facility to develop your own control loops, and the only ECU that I am aware of that also has that ability is the Bosch MS5.2 - which costs in the tens of thousands.
This means I can design in detonation avoidance strategies that fit the engine's characteristics or intended purpose.
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It's a completely new ECU from a different company, for me the killer punch is that it has a facility to develop your own control loops, and the only ECU that I am aware of that also has that ability is the Bosch MS5.2 - which costs in the tens of thousands.
This means I can design in detonation avoidance strategies that fit the engine's characteristics or intended purpose.
Wow, that sounds pretty amazing. Do you mind sharing what company offers the ECU you are referring to?
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It's a completely new ECU from a different company, for me the killer punch is that it has a facility to develop your own control loops, and the only ECU that I am aware of that also has that ability is the Bosch MS5.2 - which costs in the tens of thousands.
This means I can design in detonation avoidance strategies that fit the engine's characteristics or intended purpose.
Wow, that sounds pretty amazing. Do you mind sharing what company offers the ECU you are referring to?
+1! i was just recently looking at vems trying to figure out which stand alone i want to go but that does sound amazing
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The ECU is detailed here http://motorsport-electronics.co.uk/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/20/s/me442-engine-management-system/#
Yesterday I did a bit more on the engine, ground the head flat.
(http://i.imgur.com/jJ9zHCJl.jpg)
Refurbed the S50 ITBs, which took for ever! But they've been stripped, ultrasonically cleaned, polished, and then reassembled.
(http://i.imgur.com/bYNvzCTl.jpg)
The head was hotwashed (again), scrubbed in the cleaning tank, so I took some loving pics of the port work
(http://i.imgur.com/4ZcQhArl.jpg)
Exhaust port
(http://i.imgur.com/NtmArFql.jpg)
Inlet port
(http://i.imgur.com/ULxZzrcl.jpg)
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So now the head is on its time to measure up valve to piston clearance.
Cat Cams give a valve lift value at TDC - for the 1301520 (http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/1301520.pdf) profile I want to run it's 4.30 / 3.70mm
Cometic make various gasket thicknesses, the smallest is 0.040" and the largest I'd want to use is 0.060" as the compression ratios for my engine are:
0.040" gasket - 11.27:1
0.060" gasket - 10.65:1
The higher compression is only just acceptable for a race engine, it really needs to be 12:1 or higher.
Measurements @ TDC:
Inlet 0.040" - 3.51mm
Inlet 0.040" - 4.05mm
Exhaust 0.040" - 2.10mm
Exhaust 0.060" - 2.63mm
Dropping to the lower compression will still not get me the clearance I need and would result in a compression ratio that might be too low for the cams to work properly.
So it looks like I need to take the pistons out and see if they can be pocketed. At this stage I am wondering if I have enough information in order to buy a set of JE pistons without machined crowns, and get my own crown profile machined from them.
-
I need an intermediate engine as I blew mine up at the track today
(http://i.imgur.com/JVwx7IWl.jpg)
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Oh crap! :(
What happened? how was the car running before it happened?
-
What exactly happened?
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This just means you need to finish the engine faster so we can see results!
Bummer on the engine failure >:(
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The car was running okay, after about an hour laps there was a power loss and some strange noises which I thought was coming from the diff, I noticed smoke out the back of the car so slowed and pulled to the inside line on the track and hoped to limp back to the pits. Suddenly there was the sound of things exiting the engine, total power loss and smoke pouring from the engine and the oil light came on.
The engine spins like the plugs are out, although there was no significant oil loss...
One of the Compact Cup competitors was at the track that evening and I've agreed a purchase of one of his M44 engines as the M42 build is not going to be done any quicker and I love driving that car on the track as it is!
I will be putting my S50 ITBs on the M44 in the meantime, just to get them working and to test that ECU.
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Slow progress, but progress is progress...
I made a fuel rail!
(http://i.imgur.com/yIvBBctl.jpg)
It took forever to do something seemingly that simple, and I think next time I'd be better to do more of it on the lathe, but you live and learn. The Idle air control ports were bunged (in the middle with two tapered grub screws), and with some machined bungs on the outer ports threaded to provide something for the rail to be pulled onto.
For extra points I've scalloped the back of the fuel rail
(http://i.imgur.com/1VsMMm9l.jpg)
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Okay... I've pulled the pistons out of the block, measured them up to double check the compression height (31.5mm) and spec the pistons that I need: 7.3cc domed crown, deep piston cutouts...
And I'm getting nowhere with the supplier.
So - where can I get some 86.5mm pistons that will just work with my setup?!?
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Which supplier are you using? It does not seem like an unusual request!
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I am pretty interested in this thread, as I am debating on what to do with my m42. I would be interested to hear your thought process behind the build.
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After talking and looking around, I was told that a bloke by the name of Horst Lems in Germany used Matzinger Performance http://www.matzz.at/ to make his pistons and rods. I spoke to Berhard there, who replied in perfect english, and suggested I send a piston to him, so that they can machine a set to my specification - as they have the right pocket depth for Horst Lems's cams, and as I am planning on using the same cams I will have exactly what I need.
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I am pretty interested in this thread, as I am debating on what to do with my m42. I would be interested to hear your thought process behind the build.
Well I think the whole thought process is pretty much detailed throughout the thread - is there anything specific you're interested in?
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Matzinger sent me a snapshot of the pistons they're doing for me
(http://i.imgur.com/I29EFDNl.png)
Decent depth of pocket and raised chamber there.
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Hi
Any reasons you can't use s50 Pistons us or euro, MM (87) or xrallyparts Pistons (86.5)?
Cheers Rohan
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phatbob Those pistons look awesome.
I would also like to hear your thoughts/reasonings on why you chose this particular route for your pistons. My engine build is a way's down the road but am still pondering pistons and a number of other parts.
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Any reasons you can't use s50 Pistons us or euro, MM (87) or xrallyparts Pistons (86.5)?
Cheers Rohan
Hi Darky, S50B30 US Pistons are what I currently have, but I couldn't get the compression with the ones I had, and when I checked the next highest compression I would still be a way off.
The XRallyparts are for the S42 which has a different rod design so I wasn't going to gamble on those hoping to re-bush the rods etc.
Metricmechanic are in the US and I'm in Europe, so getting parts that wont be hit with import duty was the decider.
And when I compare the prices these pistons are marginally less than the XRallyparts.
phatbob Those pistons look awesome.
I would also like to hear your thoughts/reasonings on why you chose this particular route for your pistons. My engine build is a way's down the road but am still pondering pistons and a number of other parts.
Cheers for that - the key part for me is that I set off down a route of development that a contact of mine (who works for M-Division in Munich) warned me against... And he was right, so I get to buy a second set of pistons which are custom made but are not hugely more expensive than the other options.
So as I am following advice I am following the recipe that another M42 engine was built to - and that's using 13:1 compression to make the Catcams 1301520 profile cams work ( http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/1301520.pdf ) as they produced 244bhp@7900rpm and 240nm@5200rpm from a 1930cc engine.
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So your aiming for 13:1 compressions? That's massive.
Those are massive cams your trumpets will have to be really long. Unless you raise your revs of course.
Xrallyparts do a x42(basically a m42, with s42 bits made to fit) but your right the 18 mm piston pin would force you to use there rods! They get 260 hp out of 2l at 12.5:1. At 13:1 your probably being a bit conservative with 244 hp.
What are the specs of the piston? Dia, pin, comp height, mass etc
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What fuel are you planning to run? I cant wait to see this thing run!!
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So your aiming for 13:1 compressions? That's massive.
Those are massive cams your trumpets will have to be really long. Unless you raise your revs of course.
Xrallyparts do a x42(basically a m42, with s42 bits made to fit) but your right the 18 mm piston pin would force you to use there rods! They get 260 hp out of 2l at 12.5:1. At 13:1 your probably being a bit conservative with 244 hp.
What are the specs of the piston? Dia, pin, comp height, mass etc
Yep, its a pretty insane level of compression, but thats because of the compression losses as a result of the extreme cams.
The trumpets are going to be setup on the dyno, and yeah they're going to need to be massive. Revs should be higher because I'm using the 81mm stroke of the M42 rather than one of the other crank options. This gives me an over square engine that should rev nice and high, and if you check the rest of this thread everything I've done has been to reduce weight while improving strength of the parts.
You're right about Xrallyparts, I spent far too long pouring over their site, but the parts blew the budget I had to pieces. If this engine works then I might start a phase 2, but I have a Honda B16B to rebuild before all of that. As for power, I really only expect 200 - 220bhp as I've been disappointed by NA tuning in the past. A mate of mine put the S50 ITBs and a fast road cam in his M44 and got 178bhp so who knows where it will end up.
As for specs, 86.5mm diameter, 22mm pin, 31.5mm comp height, mass is as yet unknown, I am totally relying on the recommendation of the BMW guy on this whole aspect of the project...
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What fuel are you planning to run? I cant wait to see this thing run!!
99 octane as a minimum. I can't wait to see this thing running either - its been going on for far too long...
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I feel your pain that its been going on for a long time. I'm just getting to tuning my car after years of building this new stroker and life sometime gets in the way too..lol
I have no idea where my power will end up either but I know I built it for a street motor and torque. Torque gets you moving more so then power and I didn't want to seem like I was driving like an a$$hole around town to make the car go...LOL
I think your car will make plenty of power given your specs so far. I won't say how much but it will be significant.
Great thread....Keep up the great work!!
Cheers,
~Ralph
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The pistons arrived safe and sound from Matzinger
(http://i.imgur.com/DoW38bvl.jpg)
They look to be very high quality, nicely finished, and come with Total seal piston rings. Most importantly they come with *Four* stickers.
First thing I did was put them on the scales they came in at ~436g each, that's pistons rings, clips and pins.
The rings needed very little gapping, so it was soon onto checking valve clearances.
Squared the piston at TDC and bolted on my degree wheel
(http://i.imgur.com/D7gxG5kl.jpg)
Then setup the DTI to get the measurements
(http://i.imgur.com/JTNfSGol.jpg)
All measurements are in mm
| Degrees | Inlet (ATDC) | Exhaust (BTDC) |
| 0 | 6.05 | 6.45 |
| 5 | 6.52 | 6.49 |
| 10 | 7.22 | 6.74 |
| 15 | 8.63 | 7.65 |
| 20 | 9.86 | 8.63 |
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Those Look Top Notch 8)
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Could you explain to me what and why you have to "square the piston"?
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To get the piston accurately at TDC so that I can measure the piston to deck height the two DTI device is first zeroed on the block deck, these are then pushed to the middle of the cylinder and then the piston sides are pushed to get the dials to read the same - once this is done the piston is sat squarely in the bore. The crank is then turned to find the true TDC, the piston remains square in the bore thanks to ring tension and the small amount that the piston is moved a very small amount.
As the piston generally sits square I can get accurate measurements when I do the valve to crown clearance measurements.
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Pistons fitted:
(http://i.imgur.com/bYr2SoNl.jpg)
Rod bolts torqued and the stretch measured:
(http://i.imgur.com/1ZQ9ejYl.jpg)
Sump, timing chain and cover on:
(http://i.imgur.com/O3FGuTOl.jpg)
Next job is to order cams, springs and retainers. See about sorting an oil filter take-off plate so that I can fit a remote oil filter and cooler.
After that the simple stuff, wiring in an ECU, electric water pump.
I might even have this running for the 2015 season.
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Any ideas on what cam specs you are going with?
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I've ordered the CatCams 1301520 profile
http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/1301520.pdf
Inlet 298° duration 12.5mm lift
Exhaust 290° duration 12mm lift
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I love the direction you are going with this engine build. Those cams are going to be Wild! I think you made the right choice with catcam, they are expensive but well worth the money. This should be a great track setup.
-TG
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Thanks mate, I am following the advice of people who've been building powerful 16v engines for years, John used to work for Cosworth building BDA and BDG engines. Richard comes by the workshop and often gives me advice, he used to build Toyota 4A-GE engines. And the guy who's been advising cam profiles etc, Stefan, works for BMW M-Division. On top of that we have Pete who's an aerospace machinist who gives me verbal abuse if I try to cut corners, and Stuart who's built more race engines than I've had hot dinners who often starts a conversation with "if it was my engine I'd be doing..."
As I have secured myself a new job I will not be further preparing the chassis - its already to Compact Cup spec @ ~1200kg, but now I am not going to compete in the cup, I can go lighter - so more weight is coming out, polycarb windows... So my mates at another garage will be paid to do this work.
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Really interested in this one as I live in England and I'm trying to do a similar thing. I'm looking at building a 2.1 engine but without buying directly from the US as the import rules confuse me! Where abouts are you? pistons are the thing I'm unsure about as I will need some pistons making to get the correct deck height with the 88mm stroke crank. I'm wanting to build a torquey engine that will retain the standard inlet manifold for my class of rallying.
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Hello Adam, I am interested in the same thing... I was thinking at 88mm crankshaft, 135mm rods (like these: http://www.ebay.it/itm/CXRacing-BMW-M20-H-Beam-Connecting-Rods-135mm-Rod-Length-/180820595258?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a19bf523a), and good S50B32 pistons like wossner... Maybe all will fit without extreme modifications... I read in other topics that we can use honda (engine B18C) rods, 138mm lenght, but you must work on pistons...
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The 138mm rods will not work with an 88mm crank. The gudgeon pin would be into the piston crown!
The longer rods are for the 81mm (M42) and 83.5mm (M44) cranks.
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Crankshaft + Bearings from Diesel: 88mm Hub (16.6kg) Stock 13.2kg
Eagle Forget Conrods: 135mm (22mm pin, 540g) Stock 532g
Wiseco/Mahle Forget Pistons: 86mm (22mm pin, 320g) Stock 446g
Headgasket M44: 1.74mm
=> CR = 13.06:1 /1.85mm over deck/
Discplace: 2044.7cc = 8.6x8.6x8.8x3.14159 (511.17cc per Cyl)
88mm hub + EVO Piston + 140mm M44 Rod = 6.85mm over Deck
88mm hub + EVO Piston + 135mm Eagle Rod = 1.85mm over Deck
So, I think I have to use rods of 135mm lenght...
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Correct!
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cant wait to see this done!!
If you are expecting 200bhp, how much would you expect on a standrard inlet and throttle body and maybe mustang injectors or similair? (looking at building something similair not to this extent though but have to run standard throttle body in race class)
cant seem to see what final cc this will be is it a 2.1? only getting into the process of building enginesso cant figure outs the calculations :)
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Really interested in this one as I live in England and I'm trying to do a similar thing. I'm looking at building a 2.1 engine but without buying directly from the US as the import rules confuse me! Where abouts are you? pistons are the thing I'm unsure about as I will need some pistons making to get the correct deck height with the 88mm stroke crank. I'm wanting to build a torquey engine that will retain the standard inlet manifold for my class of rallying.
Hello mate, I'm outside Cambridge and will happily point you in any direction you need if you want to PM me.
I have the 86.5mm JE Pistons which will give you plenty more compression if you're going for a longer stroke - as I say PM me your number and I'll give you a shout - any info I have is free to share.
I'm sticking with an M42 crank because I want revs, so I am keeping it short stroke.
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cant wait to see this done!!
If you are expecting 200bhp, how much would you expect on a standrard inlet and throttle body and maybe mustang injectors or similair? (looking at building something similair not to this extent though but have to run standard throttle body in race class)
cant seem to see what final cc this will be is it a 2.1? only getting into the process of building enginesso cant figure outs the calculations :)
Its going to be a 1.9, I'm running a standard M42 crank as I wanted a short-stroke big-bore engine as I'm going for power through revs - I have a 4.3:1 LSD so torque is not an issue
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These arrived
(http://i.imgur.com/gyBfFdZl.jpg)
So I lapped my valves in
(http://i.imgur.com/FJskZPrl.jpg)
Fitted the new valve guide seals and the dual valve springs
(http://i.imgur.com/r9uj5jRl.jpg)
Put the shims in place
(http://i.imgur.com/u0JbhvBl.jpg)
Then tested the clearances of the cams
(http://i.imgur.com/cvxC4wcl.jpg)
And the net result is that the inlet fouls the cam carriers, and the shims will need at least 2mm removed to get the clearances even close to right.
So there's a load of work more to be done - but that's the good part :)
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Nice! That's a proper Xmas present
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Did the inlet cam lobes hit the carriers? If so, thats some tall lobes :)
Better to have the shims too tall rather than too short... Much easier to remove material than add it!!
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Crankshaft + Bearings from Diesel: 88mm Hub (16.6kg) Stock 13.2kg
Eagle Forget Conrods: 135mm (22mm pin, 540g) Stock 532g
Wiseco/Mahle Forget Pistons: 86mm (22mm pin, 320g) Stock 446g
Headgasket M44: 1.74mm
=> CR = 13.06:1 /1.85mm over deck/
Discplace: 2044.7cc = 8.6x8.6x8.8x3.14159 (511.17cc per Cyl)
88mm hub + EVO Piston + 140mm M44 Rod = 6.85mm over Deck
88mm hub + EVO Piston + 135mm Eagle Rod = 1.85mm over Deck
So, I think I have to use rods of 135mm lenght...
Careful crankshaft stroke is the diameter not the radius so
Going from m42 crankshaft 81mm to m47d20 88 mm only increases the piston height by 3.5 mm using the same conrods.
Cheers Rohan
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cant wait to see this done!!
If you are expecting 200bhp, how much would you expect on a standrard inlet and throttle body and maybe mustang injectors or similair? (looking at building something similair not to this extent though but have to run standard throttle body in race class)
cant seem to see what final cc this will be is it a 2.1? only getting into the process of building enginesso cant figure outs the calculations :)
Its going to be a 1.9, I'm running a standard M42 crank as I wanted a short-stroke big-bore engine as I'm going for power through revs - I have a 4.3:1 LSD so torque is not an issue
ohh right ok fair enough, im from the uk aswell btw and ive built my compact up for road rallying so im looking for tourque rather than a revy engine! but im still at the starting stage really of my build so got plenty of time to view my options :)
what is involved in converting the m44 to m42? im guessing not a big job as youll be on thottle bodies?
also do you know what is the uk equivelent to the mustang injector upgrade they have?
cheers
sion
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[/quote]
Careful crankshaft stroke is the diameter not the radius so
Going from m42 crankshaft 81mm to m47d20 88 mm only increases the piston height by 3.5 mm using the same conrods.
Cheers Rohan
[/quote]
Yes, I agree with you.
Today I will disassemble a m42 engine I bought, so I can try all the combination!!!
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ohh right ok fair enough, im from the uk aswell btw and ive built my compact up for road rallying so im looking for tourque rather than a revy engine! but im still at the starting stage really of my build so got plenty of time to view my options :)
what is involved in converting the m44 to m42? im guessing not a big job as youll be on thottle bodies?
also do you know what is the uk equivelent to the mustang injector upgrade they have?
cheers
sion
Converting to the M42 should be straightforward as I am going to run an aftermarket ECU - so things like EWS are not going to be an issue for me. Everything else should be pretty much bolt in, as I understand that the blocks are almost exactly the same.
For injectors and so on, I'm using the M3 ones that I got with the ITBs, if I use more power than they deliver I'll take a look at what Bosch do as a direct replacement.
It seems like there are a few of these engines being used for rallying in the UK. Good to see it, if you have any questions or need to find parts then give me a shout I have sourced pretty much everything.
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The measuring of shims was too boring to photograph, seriously it was dull as hell, and the shim grinding is going to be even more tedious.
But I sorted the clearance issue in the cam bridge
(http://i.imgur.com/9xC8VLol.jpg)
The ball nose cutter took out the ridge but I ended up using a carbide cutter to remove enough material in the right places.
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Hi
You using 35 mm (m42) or 33 mm (s50&m52) cam trays?
Thanks Rohan
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Everything is M42, I'd never considered using a 6 cylinder one - is that something that's usually used?
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Hi
Using 33 mm cam trays is quite easy.
One side is literally just cut 2 cylinders off.
The other requires a little bit of welding to add some material on. YouTube it!
Lightens up the valve train nicely.
Cheers Rohan
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There are a few more clearancing issues that are minor and since you're tackling the area where the lobes transition, the rest should be a breeze for you. You also need to drill a new hole for the upper chain rail guide as well. But yes there is a little welding involved for oil routing.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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It struck me that the only problem with a smaller diameter follower is that I wouldn't be able to use the cams I have at the moment - the lobes are at the very edge of the standard lifter as it currently is.
I may look at options when/if I do try an evolution of the head design, apparently the 5mm stemmed M3 S65 valves and valve train are the way ahead for more flow.
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On a high revving engine with aggressive lobe profiles I would keep the bigger diameter lifters for sure. You need the larger surface area.
Focus on making the lifters lighter, not smaller diameter (and lighter).
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Yep the followers are nice light coated jobs. I put the new valve train weights somewhere in this rambling thread
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Ground more shims, with varying levels of success
(http://i.imgur.com/5onuuh9l.jpg)
Shim grinding is not much fun at all.
This thing:
(http://i.imgur.com/n5hfOwDl.jpg)
This is fun
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More parts have arrived, the Mocal stuff meant I could put the remote filter/cooler take-off plate on the engine:
(http://i.imgur.com/jrKXBOsl.jpg)
And the Cometic head gasket arrived meaning I could put the head on:
(http://i.imgur.com/sL6N7yRl.jpg)
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One problem... When I put the chain tensioner in place, it actually gets to the point where it locks the engine up - anyone have any clues as to what might be going wrong?
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Can you turn the engine over without the tensioner?
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Sounds like you have a link doubled up on the crankshaft. If so, your timing could be off too. If it's on the rt side of the engine you might need to roll it backwards to free it up.
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Turned out to be a problem with the tensioner - which I stripped and repaired, it works, but there's no reason to use it so will be buying a new one along with a crank pulley bolt.
But at least I can set the cam timing:
(http://i.imgur.com/kbm0Ognl.jpg)
The cams are quite mental, cam overlap? Yes it has plenty of that: 4.3mm on the inlet with 3.7mm on exhaust at TDC.
(http://i.imgur.com/4LuxTUDl.jpg)
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I bet that overlap is crazy! Since you are going this mental, any reasons for not picking the 307 / 298°??s too mental :)??
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Glad to hear you found the issue and it was a straightforward fix.
That overlap is mental. Going to be a screamer for sure!
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You can't post engine porn like that V8 a few posts back and not say what it is. The distributor at the rear of the head looks Italian but Ferraris of that era had one on each head. And timing belts. Spill!
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My guess was a Cossie DFV, but I have never touched one so Im not sure :-\
You might have covered it already, but what coils are you planning on using?
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I bet that overlap is crazy! Since you are going this mental, any reasons for not picking the 307 / 298°??s too mental :)??
Yes - any more would, apparently, need titanium in the valve train. I may well be on the edge of acceptable valve train weight for these cams, as it is. The next step would be to go for 5mm valves from the S62 engine along with the Ti parts.
You can't post engine porn like that V8 a few posts back and not say what it is. The distributor at the rear of the head looks Italian but Ferraris of that era had one on each head. And timing belts. Spill!
That's a very rare Alfa Romeo engine from the 1960s, the whole thing was a total mess with a corroded front end, the replacement was machined out of a solid piece of aluminium.
My guess was a Cossie DFV, but I have never touched one so Im not sure :-\
You might have covered it already, but what coils are you planning on using?
There was a DFV on the dyno when I was there this week, built by http://www.geoffrichardsonengines.com/ (http://www.geoffrichardsonengines.com/) they're some sort of insane, DFVs eat their blocks in about 8 hours of total running time. A new DFV block costs 20K. 2.5K per hour running time for the block alone, chuck in some rebuild costs and you're probably looking at five thousand pounds an hour.
I'll be using a Bosch Motorsport coil pack, wasted spark, as I have a pack that was going to go on my Honda B16B engine.
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Awesome work.
What are the plans on the exhaust side? (had a scan but didnt see any mention yet)
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The suggested setup (from a 240bhp M42) is a 4/2/1 manifold (header) with:
55cm 45mm dia. outside diameter primaries.
20cm 51mm dia. secondaries.
63.5 mm single.
But... that's from a German car where the steering is on the other side to mine - my stock manifold has been piped round the steering column so I will have to see how close to the suggested setup the fabricator will be able to get to.
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I have a rhd car and managed nigh on identical dimensions to yours ( primary were 38mm) around the steering and had space to spare. If you pm me your email I can send pics of the layout as a reference. May save some head scratching up front.
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Has anyone looked at sequential pairing of exhaust primaries or tried it?
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I have a rhd car and managed nigh on identical dimensions to yours ( primary were 38mm) around the steering and had space to spare. If you pm me your email I can send pics of the layout as a reference. May save some head scratching up front.
PM sent mate
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Glad I found this thread, I am doing a similar build but struggling to find someone to do the head for me.
Are you in the UK?
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Hello mate, yes I am in the UK, PM your details and we'll have a chat, I can put you in touch with the people I've used.
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Two weeks ago the engine was taken from its home for the last year
(http://i.imgur.com/Hwasibmh.jpg)
To the garage where it's going to be fitted.
The old engine is out, when I removed one of the engine mounts I found a piece of piston, it seemed that I managed to blow the M44 up properly, as the piston was out of the side of the block - thankfully right in webbing between engine mount bolts - that smacks of oil starvation - so I think an accusump might be on the purchasing list.
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Please remember to post pics of M44 carnage!!
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Thats already been weighed in for scrap.
The M42 now has gone beyond this (http://i.imgur.com/KE58Cn0h.jpg)
To having the box and everything else on it - ready to be installed.
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Two weeks ago the engine was taken from its home for the last year
(http://i.imgur.com/Hwasibmh.jpg)
To the garage where it's going to be fitted.
Just curious as to what the rest of the engine hoist looks like? It must be a good deal more practical not having the legs extend under the vehicle when pulling/installing a motor.
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Its the hoist trolley they use for moving engines on and off the benches and dynos - and its heavy as hell! The weight of some large V8s is counterbalanced by it, so you can imagine how much effort is required to push the thing.
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The engine has been put in the hole:
(http://i.imgur.com/Jf1seg9l.jpg)
So that the DI Racing https://www.facebook.com/damian.diracing can start fabricating the exhaust manifold using these bits:
(http://i.imgur.com/0m6Og6Ql.jpg)
That I bought from Alunox www.facebook.com/pages/Alunox-Race-exhausts
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Hi
What happened to 4-2-1, that's a 4-1 set up?
Very very hard for a rhd car.
Rohan
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Yes... I was talking about the 4-2-1 setup and John the engine builder said "I thought you were building a race engine"...
Apparently race engines use a 4-1, so he told me to make the primaries 45mm and 865mm long, blending into a 63.5mm collector.
I was quite happy with that as its going to be less of a job to sort a 4-2-1, I will loose some low-end, but I'll have 4/5ths of F**k all low end anyway.
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Haha yah 4-1 is the way to go! 8) This engine you are building is going to be crazy top end and a TRUE drivers car. If you have a lot of skill this build will kill it at the track.
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4-1 is the way to go for this build. 4-2-1 is more of a street setup.
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Dear god this is taking for ever... But it needs to be done right.
The engine went in the car and the fabricator made a 3d template of the room that he has to work in:
(http://i.imgur.com/iVLfzHEl.jpg)
This shows the steering column, and the water cut stainless flange.
Another view, he made an additional part which is a template of the firewall:
(http://i.imgur.com/OhQqWeKl.jpg)
While the engine is out I de-greased and pressure washed the engine bay, its quite clean now:
(http://i.imgur.com/a6zHEY2l.jpg)
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Slow progress, but progress at least
(http://i.imgur.com/APdQJFrl.jpg)
Equal pipe lengths are proving to be a challenge, but its looking like the fabricator is going to be able to make something work,
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That looks all too familiar! Its like building a jigsaw without the guide picture.
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The damn fabricator has not been seen at his place of work for two weeks now.
I wonder sometimes if this project will ever finish...
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The damn fabricator has not been seen at his place of work for two weeks now.
I wonder sometimes if this project will ever finish...
Damn man, that sucks...
You would probably be better off getting my mates here to make it and ship it to you! They worked on my car's exhaust, dynoed it, and implemented my resonator while I was in Perth!
I really wish I had a bit of time to sink into making a decent set of headers (and coins)... for the greater good ya' know!
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Well its been by-and-large a pretty trying time, mainly due to family health issues so the project took a back seat as life was in the way.
Today we got the driveshaft mounted. The gearbox mounts have been replaced with P.U. skateboard wheels... S50 engine mounts - that whole setup should be plenty stiff now.
We've mocked up the alternator bracket that will avoid the oil cooler take-off fixings.
And I've bought an Emerald K6+ ECU
So maybe its time that this project kicked off again...
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How did the exhaust manifold go?
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Its good enough to get going with. We got the manifold to exhaust pipe tacked up and that's going to a different welder.
The next day I have to drop everything and rush to my Dad's hospital bed.
I am beginning to think that this build is cursed.
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I finally got the alternator bracket and adjustment sorted out on the M42.
The problem was that the Mocal take-off was blocked by the belt tensioner.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ol8AbmEh.jpg)
So I cut the tensioner housing out, gave my files a bit of a a run over, machined two 28mm spacers with an 9.9mm dia bore, two M10 rose joints (one L/H and one R/H thread) and an M10 turnbuckle linkage.
(http://i.imgur.com/0Rmo9fVh.jpg)
I have a few 6PK belts on order, it looks like a Gates 6PK938 should work.
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Did you look into putting a banjo bolt and cutting some of the alternator mount? This is what I had planned on doing, which should allow to run the tensioner still.
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It never even crossed my mind! It would work perfectly with a Banjo bolt.
I think I was probably fixated on the whole "having rose joints on my race car" thing :)
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Haha fair enough.
Im picking up a banjo and bolt tomorrow (along with a 5.4cwp) will post pics on my build for you incase your interested!
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(http://i.imgur.com/Smh4Pzgl.jpg)
Fuel lines now plumbed in, remote oil filter and cooler fitting next.
Will check out your thread to see development.
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Oil and water plumbed in - one more pipe to connect between head and heater element.
It all needs a good clean up, but the engine needs to do things like turn over first.
(http://i.imgur.com/vXSwyjXh.jpg)
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how do you tension the alternator belt?
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Check up at the top of the page http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=18106.msg131859#msg131859 there's a rose jointed linkage.
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Looks good!!
Would it be possible for you to measure how much them 90degree bend come away from the take off belt?
Sion
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I'll try to remember to photograph with a tape measure in view. I'll PM you my number - I'll most likely be down by the car on Saturday.
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Put together the main switch for the car - I think I'm going to be spending a lot of time with the wiring of this car.
(http://i.imgur.com/diCd7pCh.jpg)
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Things are still happening - just that wiring doesn't photograph well.
Its a mess at the moment, but its a work in progress.
Thanks to the position of the rollcage's door bars, you get to feel some real discomfort when wiring in this position.
(http://i.imgur.com/FdwJ4hmh.jpg)
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Oil and water plumbed in...
(http://i.imgur.com/vXSwyjXh.jpg)
What kind of electric water pump do you use? Can you please give more details? Do you still use a thermostat?
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Hi, its a Davies Craig http://daviescraig.com.au/category/electric-water-pumps pump, and I am using the standard thermostat.
I may have to remove the thermostatic valve and use it solely as a restrictor.
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Over the Christmas break I got some time to work on the car.
* The plugs spark.
* Cranked the engine to get oil pressure, there is a slight oil weep from the one coupling in my oil system that is not Aeroquip so that will need to be replaced.
* Coolant poured out of the thermostat housing, the rubber seal is shot and "grey snot" wasn't enough to seal it.
So that's not bad - now I just need to find a replacement thermostat seal and get a proper Aeroquip 90 degree -6 coupling.
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(http://i63.tinypic.com/smc3gh.jpg)
i did mine slightly different to you. i have taken the heater out now as it hardly worked with the electric water pump
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So since I last posted I quit work, sorted out some family business hundreds of miles from my home, and got the engine running
(http://i.imgur.com/WPGWXs8l.jpg)
Videos to follow when the engine is broken in and tuned.
I have to fabricate a proper method of securing the throttle cable, then break in the engine on the rollers.
The inlets are far too short so I'll be getting some silicone hose to extend the tract, then get some aluminium tube to fabricate the correct length.
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So I stuck it on the rollers to break-in the engine
(http://i.imgur.com/6Z31mFMl.jpg)
Initially it brought up the problems with cooling, there was a huge airlock in the system as a result of the electric water pump.
So I pulled the thermostat, removed the mechanism effectively leaving a restrictor disk. I've been told that this may not be good as there are different coolant routes through the head depending on the coolant temperature so I may have to revisit the this later - I'm hoping that the flow of water will be enough that its just going to be flooding the passages with a flood of water.
Yesterday I gave it about an hour break-in, (2500 - 3500 rpm with a medium load on the rollers) the highest water temperature I saw was 98degC.
Once I can get back on the rollers I'll start mapping it. This is going to be a few weeks off yet.
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i was told to run without a thermostat and use a restrictor, when i fitted my electric water pump i used a digital controller which had been factory wired with the output to the pump the wrong way around which made the pump run in reverse and managed to cool the engine all day long at slow speeds but overheated badly when pushed. i was sent a new pump and controller and now even when pushed hard the temp keeps nice and low. i had to tilt the pump while running and filling at the same time to get all of the air out
hope you get it all sorted out and looking forward to seeing what power you get
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Thanks for the info. During the break-in period the water temp was in the high 80s and no higher.
We shall see how it works when I do some power runs.
Incidentally, what sort of ignition advance are you seeing?
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Nothing else to say here but, its climbing out of the rollers and spinning up the wheels.
With the Sun set to lb/ft it went off the 120ft/lb scale from about 4k...
I drove the thing hard with over 30degC inlet temperatures for about 5 hours on the rollers today.
Only a few oil leaks.
I need to find a rolling road with knurled rollers.
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Its a nice problem to have when you need knurled rollers!!
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The latest problem I have...
The compound my Compact was stored in was broken into and my suspension, ECU, seats and harnesses, switch panel, bumpers, and door cards were stolen.
I think that this car is cursed.
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gutted for you, any chance of finding who stole them and getting them back
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What the hell. Thats horrible!
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I've been busy with some other projects, but I am not resolved to get this car moving on - and continue the development.
Don't hold your breaths though ;)
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I have finally realised that I will not have time to finish this project, I was determined to not let the theft from the vehicle not effect my determination, but I just don't have the time and the drive to do this anymore.
The entire project will be going up for sale, if anyone would like the engine I'd be open to reasonable offers.
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So gutted to see that you won’t be able to complete this build! I’ve been checking here for updates on it for years for ideas on my own build. Have sold the car then now or have you not got that far yet?
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hi MrPhatBob. really sorry to hear that.
If you're giving up and willing to sell i can be interested in the engine for my e30.