Finally installed Linux

[asubimmer]

I finally got around to installing Linux and I love it. Its a change since I have used PC's since I was like 6, but I like it better. For those who still have PC, you should change asap ;)

[D. Clay]

What build, version, or whatever they call all of the Linux variations. Instead of "dll" hell you can be in "dependancy" hell.

[mrjezza]

Distribution is the word you're looking for D. Clay :)

[sheepdog]

Been there done that, I will just say it is nowhere near desktop ready for 99.99% of the population.
Otherwise I will go off on a rant.

How can I put this nicely... No, I am not necessarily a hater, but lets just say Linux has become a real disapointment.

[asubimmer]

I'm using ubuntu. Its just nice to have a lot more options and stuff. It takes a day or so to get used to but I like it more than windows. I just wanted to try it out this summer before I went back to college. I am pretty sure I'm gonna keep using linux though.

[mrjezza]

Hah one of my best mates from high school designed and drew all the icons used in Ubuntu... I was DJing his 21st and at some point during the night he got a display case type thing with Ubuntu CDs and put it next to my decks without me noticing and all these people were asking me why I called myself DJ Ubuntu :O

[enildeR]

Been there done that, I will just say it is nowhere near desktop ready for 99.99% of the population.
Otherwise I will go off on a rant.

How can I put this nicely... No, I am not necessarily a hater, but lets just say Linux has become a real disapointment.

I'm sure you can say that, if you're from the standpoint of having expected it to replace your Windows installation, but linux kicks ass for just about /every/ thing else you would want to do with a computer.

I've been using it for just over a decade, and I'm always impressed with it.

Desktop? I can do with it as a desktop, but that's me, and I'm a very technical person. It doesn't bother me. I'm of the mind that putting a bit of effort into making it work and work forever is far benefical than /expecting/ it to just work. Course, I'm a DIY person, so it's not surprising that linux appeals to me greater than Windows.

For me, Windows has become a real disapointment. I was stoked about Win95 coming out, and a friend had given me a beta. I loved it running on my 486 SX25 (haha... oh the memories).
As time went on, I noticed that it started growing rather bloated. However, one could say the same about OSX and even some of the distros of linux geared towards desktop replacement, which is unfortunate. (On an aside, I have one of the first Ti Powerbooks, a 550mhz, and 10.2.x ran great on machine. When I installed 10.3 and then 10.4 on this thing, I noticed it ran a lot slower. Kind of like having Win95 on a 750 duron, and then switching to XP. I'm planning to go back down to 10.2. Bloat is something you can't get away from; it's why you continually see faster CPUs and more memory on current PCs.)

I digress. What I'm more disappointed with Windows is it's nature to crash more often than the other OSs out there. That, and the fact that the code could be more robust, but MS really doesn't care. They're just looking to make money off Windows, and if it continues to sell, they won't give the matter a second thought.

Look at ZETA (formally BeOS), or NeXTSTEP (OS X is based off of this), for that matter. They both are a highly robust OSs.

Bleh. I could go on and on. This debate will always continue no matter where you go and what OS comes out.

I used to run linux on my desktop for quite a few years, and once OS X came out, I switched. I now mainly leave linux to the server duties. I use it on an older machine of mine for mainly fileserving and a place where I can manage torrent downloads. That, and I have it installed on my HTPC running MythTV. I still have a partition on my main desktop for linux so that I can continue using it mainly for coding. With the coming out of Parallels and Boot Camp, the next machine I'll buy would be a dualcore, dual CPU, intel PowerMac. It would allow me to do my coding and daily chores in OS X and boot over to Windows to play games, which is the only thing I use Windows for now. Though, if they finalize the Nivida driver for OS X intel, I'll prolly just stick to my FX-55. I'd rather stick with my main desktop, seeing as I spent about 150 converting my desktop to be oil cooled. Being able to code/play games in the middle of the night in the bedroom while my wife sleeps and not have to worry about the noise from the computer waking her is sublime.

[end rant]

[D. Clay]

I use XP because I evolved into it through earlier versions after MsDOS. The work that I do consists of editing large tif files - 20 MB and up, prepress work in Quark XPress, and video editing in Adobe Premiere. Mainly using Adobe Creative Suite 2 . I also use Mac's and the only real difference is the "look" of the graphical interface and some different keyboard commands. In use it's like like trying to tell if you have a small block Chevrolet or a Ford Windsor motor. I use Powerpoint for my wifes lecture's because you can seamlessly ***** video in the presentation. No shelling out to Quicktime. I have rare crashes in XP and my wife never does. She only uses MsOffice, QuickBooks, and is real selective about her e-mail. My nephew on the other hands surfs, chats, downloads and all that and he has to reformat and reinstall XP about every 90 days.
I have no loyalty at all to operating systems. To me it's like swearing by a open end wrench as opposed to a box end. I think Bill Gates is cool because he gave a gazillion bucks to fight AIDS in Africa. When Linux has the software to do what I need it to do I'll try it. It's the Apple/Windows graphical interface and software suites that have moved computers into homes and small businesses. When a friend and myself started using Visual Basic and Visual C++ in the early 90's the old DOS guys said, "That stuff is all eye candy, you can do anything you need to do in DOS. My daughter has a brand new $2000 MAC Intel notebook and I doubt if it even has a command line prompt.

[sheepdog]

Short rant, because seriously, I have written pages on this subject before. Back when I championed Linux, I was even asked by the New York Times to help on an article about it. Yes, I actually liked Linux at one time.

My thoughts are this...
If you want to just browse the web or run a server Linux is great, do not get me wrong, but essentially, Linux has not really progressed since about 1998. Yes, people will point out usb, and better printer support, blah blah blah... How about a decent installer, an up to date looking default desktop (that does not look like it was created in 1997, customers hate that), or better yet, lose the fucking text mode. I know a lot of people in Linux like that, but until they go primarily GUI, do not expect it to get any further than it has. That is exactly what held back Windows up until 95 came out. Text mode is fucking archaic. Even the OS's you mention are mostly GUI based,. and they are technically long gone.

If you want to build a decent Windows box, that WILL NOT CRASH, ask me how.
Seriously, it is very possible, it will be as reliable, or more-so than Linux. If you think Windows is less stable, go look at the records for server uptime. The list is filled with BSD and Windows, very few Linux boxes are on that list.

I used to spread the word of Linux, then I opened my eyes, then I got labeled a troll for criticising it. So now I try to pick my arguments on it, and leave.


If you like it cool, but honestly, please, do not go spreading it like it is god. It is nowhere near ready for the average computer user. I should know, I fix Joe average's computers every day. When they cannot even find control panel in windows, how does anyone expect Joe Average to understand VI? Console? RTFM? One thing though, if you are not replacing Windows, what is the point? If it is just a hobby O.S, why promote it as a desktop to replace Windows.


I do agree though, liquid cooling (of any sort), is the only way to go.
Watercooled since 2000.

[sheepdog]

My daughter has a brand new $2000 MAC Intel notebook and I doubt if it even has a command line prompt.

It does, you just need to know how to find it.
They buried it, as very few will ever use it.

As it should be with any modern OS.

[enildeR]

My daughter has a brand new $2000 MAC Intel notebook and I doubt if it even has a command line prompt.

It's a program in the "Utilities" dir, under "Applications," called "terminal." But it's a unix shell, rather than a cml prompt like you're used to in windows.

It's handy when you need it. I doubt that she would have to use it for anything, but you might, if trying to fix something for her. If the laptop were ever royally screwed, you'd have to boot into single mode (apple-s or just s, I forget), in which you only have the shell come up.



Oh. When you said shelling out for quicktime? Did you mean paying for quicktime pro? My wife used my laptop when she was going through college to do her presentations with Keynote, and she *****ded video without having to buy QT pro.

[enildeR]

If you want to just browse the web or run a server Linux is great, do not get me wrong, but essentially, Linux has not really progressed since about 1998. Yes, people will point out usb, and better printer support, blah blah blah... How about a decent installer, an up to date looking default desktop (that does not look like it was created in 1997, customers hate that)

Preaching to the choir.
The kernel has improved. It's getting there. Yes. The installers out there suck and wouldn't be up to snuff for your grandma to install linux on her comp. I believe once Gentoo has worked out some issues, they'll persue a graphical installer, and will be better than the others out there today. Updated interface? Yeah. X is old, but X7 seems to be better. There are windowmanagers that are better looking. But for your mom or similar to use it, you need something like KDE and GNOME, but they have a long way to go. I believe once the latest beta of KDE goes gold, it will be there, or at the very least half way. The main issue is there needs to be integration of the GUI into the system--to be able to configure everything on the system and to make using the system easy. You still have to edit the X config file, and I hate that. It's annoyed me greatly a few times I thought about it.


Even the OS's you mention are mostly GUI based,. and they are technically long gone.


I didn't imply that an OS need to be CML to be good. Linux is good, yes, but not as a desktop. I was simply making a point that there needs to be a robust desktop OS. They were that, but they didn't live long. Look at OS X. I always tell people that I switched because it's like linux with a /good/ interface. (I know it's BSD based, but the point remains that linux needs a similar GUI and integration of the GUI to become a desktop OS.)


If you want to build a decent Windows box, that WILL NOT CRASH, ask me how.
Seriously, it is very possible, it will be as reliable, or more-so than Linux.

I know as well. However, are you going to tell every family that lacks a computer geek how to do this, and are they going to be willing to do this everytime they have to install their computer again, or even buy a new comp? No. Even if you put it on the net, the common computer user is not willing to go through the steps to do this. A good desktop needs to work and work right from the day it's first turned on to the day it dies. Windows does not fit this criteria. Nor does any other OS out there, except maybe OS X. I still have rare crashes with it on my laptop. But it's far more stable than Windows.



I used to spread the word of Linux, then I opened my eyes, then I got labeled a troll for criticising it. So now I try to pick my arguments on it, and leave.


I have experienced this, too. However, with my case, I simply stopped advocating the OS. I've seen many times your situation, so I knew it would happen with me. So I cut and run when the getting was good.



If you like it cool, but honestly, please, do not go spreading it like it is god.


If you re-read my post, I wasn't.


One thing though, if you are not replacing Windows, what is the point? If it is just a hobby O.S, why promote it as a desktop to replace Windows.


Again, I did not promote the OS as a desktop alternative. I simply said that I use it mainly for coding and can use it for my desktop if I wanted.
However, I prefer OS X for my desktop OS.

The point is that you can't play every game in wine, or even with transgamings Cedega. I stated the only thing I use it for is gaming. If I purchased a PowerMac once they switch that line of computers to the Intel chip, I would use either Parallels or BootCamp to use Windows for playing games. Even OS X doesn't have every game ported to it, and it never will.


I do agree though, liquid cooling (of any sort), is the only way to go.
Watercooled since 2000.

I can't stand the sound of fans. My HTPC will be receiving the same attention. Can you imagine trying to sit and watch your TV shows or movies with a PC that's 50+ decibels? It's driving me nuts. My desktop comp was around 85+ while gaming (probably more). I will put in sound insulation in the second compartment to silence the harddrives and the two sets of fans that cool them and the PSU. It's a nice case. I highly doubt that I'll ever buy a computer case again. In fact, I may even pass it down to my children when the time comes.

[asubimmer]

wow, this turned out to be a pretty informative thread. This should provide people tons of info ;)

[nickmpower]

um. windows 2000 ftw

[kramerica5000]

. My daughter has a brand new $2000 MAC Intel notebook and I doubt if it even has a command line prompt.

Yup, its called Terminal and it comes installed on every Mac. I can't imagine that very many people use it.

[bmwman91]

um. windows 2000 ftw

Aaaah, I used to be that way. I had Win2kPro for years & years. Tried XP Pro, sorta liked it, then got pissed about all the thumbnail files & vti_cnf folders all over...made uploading my websites a pain, I like keeping my web stuff PERFECTLY organized, no extra unneeded files or folders. So, I went back to Win2kPro for ~1 year.

I am back on XP Pro again. 2K is just getting too outdated, as far as some multimedia type support. My workstation here at work uses 2k Pro, and it is fine. I guess XP just has a more streamlined feel to it, and I like that. My CAD packages actually run BETTER on XP, which is nice. I no longer play games (well, maybe the occasional DOS game, or DeusEx or something old), so I guess extreme performance is not a big deal.

I tried GNOME at one point my freshman year of college (2002). I was unimpressed, but I also do not have a lto of patience for some things. GNOME lived on my box for about a day before I said the hell with it.

I like the look of the Mac OSX interfaces. 1 button mice are the dumbest thign ever, but at least you can just hook up a 5 button USB one. Maybe someday I will switch to a Mac. For now, I like Windows. I have virtually no crashes, ever. They stopped shortly after I stopped playign games and tryign to tweak my system settings & get the latest beta drivers & stuff...lol go figure.

Can anyone recommend a good liquid coolign system? What is the advantage of oil cooling vs. water? Oil doesnt conduct electricity if somethign breaks open? Thanks.

[Wizard]

Asking what the best cooling system is, is like asking what is the best oil to use in our cars. Guess what the answer will be...Actually unless you are going for EXTREME OVERCLOCKING, water cooling is a big waste...For some insight check out some computer tech sites like:
http://forums.anandtech.com
http://www.broadbandreports.com
http://forumz.tomshardware.com

[bmwman91]

Hmmm, I guess I did not realize how broad a question it was.

I am not OC'ed at all or anything. I just want to minimize noise (priority #1), and have my stuff last as long as possible by keeping it as well-cooled as possible.

[bmwman91]

Everyone on the lollertrain.....

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comics/20060513.jpg

[asubimmer]

lol^^

I've been trying to put gentoo on and its insane. One thing holds me back after the other. Anyone ever get this installed?

[D. Clay]

Anyone capable of making a relevant post to this thread is way beyond the capabilities of 90% of the people that use computers and is also probably incapable of comprehending the experience from their perspective. Those users would have Macs except for one thing - price. Windows is the only alternative for them. Desktop or laptop, the price is sometimes a third and usually half as much for a Windows system. In the 80's there were Macs in every elementery classroom and they still couldn't capture market share. Macs marketing strategy was to make $2500 on each unit (by Job's own admission). They couldn't comprehend the potential volume. By the time they figured it out the Microsoft, Wintel ship had sailed. In light of this Linux isn't even in the same universe. Fact: the majority of user's don't even install their operating system. They buy it as part of the cardboard box thay take home from the big box retailer.

[bmwman91]

In light of this Linux isn't even in the same universe. Fact: the majority of user's don't even install their operating system. They buy it as part of the cardboard box thay take home from the big box retailer.

Indeed. The vast vast majority of PC users out there know nothing of how windows got on the computer, how to fix/replace it, and probably get a new computer when windows has stopped functioning efficiently (after buying $300 in anti-virus software, anti-adware, email-sorting software, etx. BS software that does not make that big a difference for the cost).

[sheepdog]

Indeed. The vast vast majority of PC users out there know nothing of how windows got on the computer, how to fix/replace it, and probably get a new computer when windows has stopped functioning efficiently (after buying $300 in anti-virus software, anti-adware, email-sorting software, etx. BS software that does not make that big a difference for the cost).

It does not help that half of the spyware removal programs out there are spyware themselves. Or that Norton actually slows yoru system more than a single virus or trojan will do. Or that Mcafee hardly does a damn thing to begin with, or that XP is terrible without some minor tweaking.

At the offices I maintain (well over 200 systems between all of my customers) we have a small suite of programs we use, and they are very effective at blocking everything short of the user. The best part is all of it is free and do not bog the systems down.


If anyone wants the programs let me know. They are all free and well tested, many of these boxes are over 2 years old with no infections or trojans during that time, all while being available to walk in customers.

[Tvan]

Yup, its called Terminal and it comes installed on every Mac. I can't imagine that very many people use it.
I use it regularly at school when I SSH into their unix servers so that I can do my programming hw. I laugh at all the Winduhs people that have to find and download a client to do their hw outside of a lab.

I've been trying to put gentoo on and its insane. One thing holds me back after the other. Anyone ever get this installed?
My friend Matt from school runs Gentoo on both of his computers. That shit looks complicated, I realized that it was over my head when he told me about writing his own config files and stuff. It was neat to see him surf the internet from the cli though.

If I purchased a PowerMac once they switch that line of computers to the Intel chip, I would use either Parallels or BootCamp to use Windows for playing games.
Good luck playing games in Parallels; it doesn't have directX support...

In the 80's there were Macs in every elementery classroom and they still couldn't capture market share.
Yea, in the 80's capturing market share would have really helped them, but now they don't have to. All of their best customers are in the high end media businesses (music, movies, photography, etc.), in which they are the best supplier. With repeat customers, they can still make a good profit in that segment without worrying. Business will always choose the most cost-effective product, which means that macs will never have a visable share of that market. Consumer PC's is a tossup, it could go either way.

[D. Clay]

Oh. When you said shelling out for quicktime? Did you mean paying for quicktime pro? My wife used my laptop when she was going through college to do her presentations with Keynote, and she *****ded video without having to buy QT pro. It may be an obsolete expression meaning to run a second shell-program. Visual C and Visual Basic Apps could create a "shell" within an application and run another app in it as if it were imbedded. I never really understood OLE, I just did it. Powerpoint allows you to insert video into a slide in the same manner as images and text. It runs when the slide is displayed. Curious - can Keynote do this?

[bmwman91]

It does not help that half of the spyware removal programs out there are spyware themselves. Or that Norton actually slows yoru system more than a single virus or trojan will do. Or that Mcafee hardly does a damn thing to begin with, or that XP is terrible without some minor tweaking.

At the offices I maintain (well over 200 systems between all of my customers) we have a small suite of programs we use, and they are very effective at blocking everything short of the user. The best part is all of it is free and do not bog the systems down.


If anyone wants the programs let me know. They are all free and well tested, many of these boxes are over 2 years old with no infections or trojans during that time, all while being available to walk in customers.

Currently I use notron Corporate. It does not seem to slow my box down at all, that I have noticed. Screw McAfee, they are the worst. My parents used it for a while and, man, it was BS.

All I prettymuch use to keep it running smoothly are RegCleaner and VoptXP (it defrags and lets me mess with the unloading of .dll's and some other minor XP tweaks to spee dit up).

So, any suggestions on the least performance-inhibiting anti-virus software? How about the tweaks to keep it running well? I am always down to do everything I can to keep it running as smooth as possible!

[enildeR]

It may be an obsolete expression meaning to run a second shell-program. Visual C and Visual Basic Apps could create a "shell" within an application and run another app in it as if it were imbedded. I never really understood OLE, I just did it. Powerpoint allows you to insert video into a slide in the same manner as images and text. It runs when the slide is displayed. Curious - can Keynote do this?


Yes.

[sheepdog]

Currently I use notron Corporate. It does not seem to slow my box down at all, that I have noticed. Screw McAfee, they are the worst. My parents used it for a while and, man, it was BS.

All I prettymuch use to keep it running smoothly are RegCleaner and VoptXP (it defrags and lets me mess with the unloading of .dll's and some other minor XP tweaks to spee dit up).

So, any suggestions on the least performance-inhibiting anti-virus software? How about the tweaks to keep it running well? I am always down to do everything I can to keep it running as smooth as possible!

Since a few people asked for it, here is the setup I use in all of the offices I maintain and on my personal systems. We rarely have any trouble and when we do, it is either a user issue, or something extremely new that no one has heard (that makes for lots of fun...). How efficient is it? It has been used on a P2 366 w/128megs ram running XP, with no noticeable performance hit. On anything faster I doubt even benchmark software could tell as they use no cpu cycles unless scanning.

Go to http://free.grisoft.,com (http://free.grisoft.,com/)
At the bottom of the page is a link to the free AVG anti-virus.

On www.download.com (http://www.download.com/)
search for "ad aware", download Ad-Aware Se.
Then "Spybot Search" and download Spybot Search and Destroy.

Install all of those, update (and in Spybots case, restart the program, then run each through a scan. One at a time. Double click the AVG icon in your tray, and go to properties, make sure "all files" is checked. Dispite it telling you to reboot after install, you do not need to on either of these.

When you have run all 3, reboot, then go to www.winpatrol.com (http://www.winpatrol.com/) You will have to look a bit, but there is a free version on there. A bit down the front page if I remember correctly. You may want to go into settings and disable sounds.

Run Ad-Aware once or so per week, Spybot when you have a chance. Everything else is pretty automatic. If you use Firefox, this will help, so will using "crap Cleaner", which is a tool to clean out temp files and such.