Why the fight to stick with the 4cyl?

[Zoso]

There are a lot of swaps and buildups going on here currently and it seems that people are trying their hardest to stay with the M42.... by either building it up or by swapping in an E36 M42 and then trying to get the DASC.

Why?

Maybe it is just me, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel and in a car that I daily drive, I wouldn't want a one of a kind.

-Custom building up an E30 M42 is expensive. Just the M47 crank is what - $700 - $900.

-An E36 M42 will cost you $1300 + the cost of the DASC + some headaches on the wiring. That'll get you ~200HP with "sub 7 second 0-60".

I'd rather spend about $3300 for an S50 plus the costs of the conversion kit and the E36 tranny. They you get 240 smooth, powerful, purring HP in a car that will FLY. You'll have an engine that has plenty of additional modifications for and the S50 is a common engine so there is no mystery or expensive one-off work if something goes wrong. If the E36 M3 gets to 60 in somewhere around 5.5s to 5.8s, the lighter E30 should do it even faster.

Is the extra weight of the I6 really that much of a concern? Do you guys want an expensive project? Do you want the affirmation of your fellow M42 owners? Do you want to be original?

I care nothing about originality. People even go as far as to say that the S50 swap is too common. Too common? I'd be surprised if there are more than a handful S50 equipped E30s in my state.

I guess it comes down to the fact that if I wanted more power, I'd want something that is proven over something that is one of a kind.

No offense to all you guys doing custom work on your M42s... it's your time and money. Just tell me why.

Damn, this makes me want to get another E30 and swap an S50 into it for a project car. I love my M3 too much to make it into a project car and my 318i is my daily driver econo box.

[Zoso]

The $3300 price was from theeurodepot. I guess engines are even cheaper elsewhere:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-S50-M3-engine-motor-3-liter-E36-OBD1-240hp-325is_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQitemZ80631 99408QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[e9nine]

Options exist. Some take pride in their cars.

I would prefer to have a reliable yet modified car (these 2 words are HARD to put together a lot of times) and to pay for that peace of mind sometimes means waaay too much than I am willing to fork over or simply staying with what I have as it works for me.

I would opt for an s50m42 as a first option. Doing some headwork to an m42 is also an option, followed by a turbo m42 then a s/c m42. All personal preference and no offense taken or meant at all :D

It also come down to the knowhow and available resources to undertake any of the aforementioned. For now, I am happy with my reliable pretty stock motored m42. Had I been equiped with more resource$ I think I'd have an s50m42 :cool:

[dude8383]

i would love to get a euro-spec s50, but i simply don't have the money to do so..im building up the other engine because i can still drive my car while i work on the other.

im also interested in learning a thing or two about the internal bits of an engine...it'll be my first time ever taking on such a project!

[jfdublyu]

i basically only have money for easy bolt-ons and other items that my ingenuity might be able to attach, but i heard something about an s52....

[doigal]

for me, its weight, fuel economy, cost, and i just like 4 cyls over heavyweights. Couldnt explain it, just do! :)

[D. Clay]

There is no fanatical movement to idolize or other "ize" M42's over and above what you find in the E30 crowd in general. An S50 conversion requires a motor with accessories, brackets, and the OBD whatevers. Then a trans, exhaust, etc. A first rate conversion easily runs $8000-$10,000 by the time it's over and done with. Spending the sums of money that a lot of the E30 crowd spends on mods is totally irrational and the dollars could easily buy three or four more cars. If you have to ask...

[thumper3ld]

Lots of people would say that it doesnt make sense to mod out any car. "Why not just buy a faster car." People do it because they are enthusiasts, and an enthusiast will do things that may not make sense to other people. Most of us joined this club because we are m42 enthusiasts. That being said, we will modify our motors as much as we can simply for the love of this well over engineered motor. If we wanted to gain power by simply doing a motor swap, then we would be just regular e30 enthusiast.

[e9nine]

An S50 conversion requires a motor with accessories, brackets, and the OBD whatevers. Then a trans, exhaust, etc. A first rate conversion easily runs $8000-$10,000 by the time it's over and done with.
s50b30 == OBD I
s50b32 == OBD II <<-- This is the one where you have to convert to OBD I
m52b28 == OBD II

Trannies:
You can use the m42 tranny as a staring point.Sourcing a used getrag from an e30 6cyl or e36 if you choose isn't that much of an issue.

Diff:
This is where it can get a tad tricky but going with a medium case 4.10 is an option depending on your use for the car.

Pricing varies widley for these things. I KNOW for a fact that when the time comes I will spend no more than 6k-6500 to have a well sorted out car without cutting corners. Getting an e34 oil pan and the accessory upgrades isn't that much. You can go with a THR adapter or do your own wiring.Fabbing an exhaust, modifying a driveshaft (depending on which tranny you choose to go with) are where the labor gets to go up since I don't have the skill to do so. Even then you can go with THR eyeball arms. I already have the suspension bits sorted out in my car so all in my case that's not going to be an issue.

All motor swaps are case by case and they are becoming cheaper as time passes by.

You have to pay to play with pretty much any car modding project.

Spending the sums of money that a lot of the E30 crowd spends on mods is totally irrational and the dollars could easily buy three or four more cars. If you have to ask... Price out a good condition used e30 325i or 325iS
Price out a good condition e36m3
Price out a 2002 project
Price out an e30m3

See where I am going? What about those into more expensive car brands or other forms of hobbying? I'd not classify them as irrational personally as it's by choice that we undertake such endeavors.

Modifying our personal bimmers as hobbies isn't really a for-profit venture in most cases. Granted you can sometimes break even or make a profit, that's not the sole purpose behind what some of us do.

I look at it as somethign I enjoy doing and for $10k I'd rather have a swapped e30 and a pretty mild DD m42 which can be done. If you prefer to have 3 or 4 stock e30s instead, that's a decision you can make ( :D ) and it's the same way someone else would rather spend $10k in so many other ways.

[StreetSpec_iS]

basically, i have always had a love for 4cyls. if they were sold here, i can say with 100% confidence that i would own an e30 M3.

when my family got our first e30, it was an '89 m40 318i. not long after, the 318iS was released, and all i can remember was wishing we had one of those. I guess it was something that stuck with me.

where i live, the governing transport body has lots of rules which inhibit modifying. i cant legally drop an s50 into my car, the capacity is too large.

so that leaves me with a few options. fitting a post-90 m20b25(hard to find, costly), or a regular m50, or an m52(still expensive). On the other hand, i could do something different and feed some boost into the m42. sure its still illegal, but if i get Defected, its just a matter of removing the FI system (still a bit of a job), rather than swapping out an s50, fitting the m42 back in and getting the car inspected.

plus id like to hear the sound of a turbo m42 ... to me, its a throwback to the 2002 Turbo.

[D. Clay]

My response was directed at the original post's (Why the fight to stick with the 4cyl?) and the following question: "No offense to all you guys doing custom work on your M42s... it's your time and money. Just tell me why."
Hence, If you have to ask...
I've spent "I don't even want to think about it" dollars on my car because I wanted to. I love the little sucker. My wife probably put it best in response to an original F40 Ferrari. "A car that costs a quarter of a million dollars and doesn't have carpet or windows that roll down just ain't right!"

[M42boy]

Modifying our personal bimmers as hobbies isn't really a for-profit venture in most cases.
That's for damn sure! :rolleyes:

[e9nine]

My response was directed at the original post's (Why the fight to stick with the 4cyl?) and the following question: "No offense to all you guys doing custom work on your M42s... it's your time and money. Just tell me why."
Hence, If you have to ask...
I've spent "I don't even want to think about it" dollars on my car because I wanted to. I love the little sucker. My wife probably put it best in response to an original F40 Ferrari. "A car that costs a quarter of a million dollars and doesn't have carpet or windows that roll down just ain't right!"

gotcha...misread your statement. :o

[sheepdog]

As mentioned, S50 swaps are not cheap.
The general consensus is, sell your current e30 and buy an M3. It is smarter and will hold its value better. Though I did see a 325 with S50 for sale the other day for $16k! Crack smoker!

As for no other swaps, most Bimmer owners like what they drive, it is not like you were going to look for a cheap car and you found this one first or it was handed down like a Honda, although it does happen. Most of us went looking for these cars specifically and bought what we wanted.

Why keep the 4cyl.
I have heard many 325 owners claim they doubt anyone could tell a difference, after talking to a few guys who have owned both, they all claim it was definately noticeable. The cars are much more tossable. Then again, 325 guys love to claim how much slower our cars are, when if you look into the actual specs, they are not that far off. Modded, yes there is quite a difference.

Most of us did not buy our cars to drag race.


I think there are some very good possible swaps though.
My brother and I are considering a GM Ecotec for his next car, be it an e30 or e21. Though he is also considering a nice M42 for an e21, with as light as they are, you want to talk about tossable, this would be good for track events. Especially stripped to bare minimum. These engines are cheap, plentifull and easy to mod. Another good choice would be a Gm 3800 (60 degree V6 from a Buick grand National). Again, easy to find and cheap to mod. Gm motors are plentifull here, especially in the midwest. It would be nice to stick to a BMW engine they are not really the most practical for a swap.


Some other good swaps are some Japanese engines. However in my opinion many of these are too high strung or really need a turbo to make them even perform decent.

[Febi Guibo]

I'm a little, um, preoccupied right now, but I will try to answer this from a couple of different perspectives.

I've had a few high hp / high torque cars... I had a vr6 GTi, C280 sport, and an e46 330i. All were great cars. but, oddly enough, my 318iS is by far my favorite.

why?

To me, 4-cylinder cars are the most essential essence of motorsport... sure, there are a lot of famous 6-cyl touring class cars (porsches, csl 3.0 etc.) but if you really look at some of the most interesting race cars, you see a ton of 4 cylinder cars... the E30 M3, bmw's early F1 cars, and even the newer S42 and 4-cyl 320i DTM cars... honda's groundbreaking early 4-cyl open wheel cars come to mind too.

comptetion rules, cost and homoglation (sp?) issues aside... driving a 4-cylinder car at the limit is all about skill. Our cars have the DNA of a real track car... the lack of torque punishes mistakes... but to me, when I can (occaisionally) do it right ...the upside is so incredibly rewarding. It's more about you than it is the car I guess.

going to drivers schools and driving 4-cyl formula ford and dodge cars opened my eyes... I'm short on time right now, but needless to say... the more I learned about DRIVING the less I cared about horsepower, 0-60 times, and doing burnouts going from stoplight to stoplight.

Building up my M42 (if I can somehow get my car the remaining 850 miles to it's new engine) seemed like the right thing to do... however cost ineffective... I love the essence of the car, and want to simply bring it out a little more.

[dude8383]

sam, you couldn't have said it better man.

ask around on the forums tomorrow if you get a chance, maybe someone can help you out with your situation.

[m42 fan]

I'll throw in my perspective here. Like Mike, I got my car because it is fun, yet relatively cheap and economical. I've come from cars with plenty of power (5.0 mustang, LT1 Impala), and I frankly don't miss it that much. If the engine in my car ever gave it up (cross fingers, knock on wood) I'd probably just source another stock M42 as a replacement. I've learned my lesson the hard way when it comes to radically altering my daily driver.

My plans are basically to keep driving the car as is, and only replace/upgrade as things wear out. Hopefully I can get another 10 years out of it, or at least till the wife's minivan is paid off.

[tim_s]

I think there's good arguments for and against keeping the m42. I'm at the stage where with a mint car I'd like to do an engine rebuild, regardless of if for performance or for reliability. my 2.1 will hopefully do both.
talking about an s50 swap is not comparing like with like. over here you can get an s50b30 with all the bits for around £1,000-£1500, mb a bit more depending how good an example etc. What you'll get is a 10+ yr old engine having done 100,000 miles or so, probably with no verification of mileage and history etc., and quite likely it will have been in an accident. These engines also have a habit of spinning shells etc and going through bottom ends, not to mention other costly bits. they're hardly fragile, but after 10 years, many are worse for wear. then there's questions of props/diffs/gearboxes etc to suit - keeping the m42 stuff is hardly going to be the best for reliability, new clutch, coding plugs and electrics, suspension etc. over here, £3k would be around the mark for the conversion all said and done, without actually rebuilding the engine.
so instead I've spent around £2,000 and got full standalone management, a high compression 2.1 bottom end and ITBs. this should give over 200bhp, and has the benefits of fitting the car like it was made for it - because it was. its also a brand new engine, will have new clutch, timing chain, seals, bearings etc etc. It should be perfectly reliable - i cant see a pre-OBD2 era BMW performance engine being more reliable than an m42 rebuilt with all new components.
also like most people on here, i'm all about the m42. its a great fun engine, mb not the fastest engine in the world, but i enjoy 4 pot screamers, and the car handles pretty nicely, extra kgs past the front axle will not do the car any favours. i was considering putting in an s14, but i figure my mods should give similar performance - mb not quite as fast, but has the benefit of being fully rebuilt, a lot more unique, more compact, sitting further back in the engine bay, having oil squirters and adj. cam sprockets, a coilpack, standalone management etc.
Also i've just always fancied modding the m42, and this project has been much more satisfying and challenging so far than shoehorning in an s50.

i hope that gives some idea of my motives, i'd hate to ruin the character of my car, and although i considered an m50/2 engine for quite a while, and in the real world such an engine will be easily as fast as what i've done and cost a bit less, there are certainly other considerations.

[1991318is]

Ya, I must admit, I am finding myself looking at the m52 swap due to the ease at which it can be done now. Granted the motor and the accessories is the big money pit, after that, it isn't too bad. The shops are coming up w/ parts to help w/ the swap such as the THR plug in adaptor for the m5x to plug into the e30 wiring. For me I'll do wudevr to make it a combo of economical w/ good gas mileage and also something I cna get the factory parts for and not have to use all custom parts. I'm 18 and I've already been down that road. In my garage my dad and I have 15,000 dollars invested into my pickup which doesnt have any bodywork or paint yet. I've done way too much custom stuff, but want more power, so that's why I find myself looking at a motor swap since it isnt as hard to create all the power and it doesn't take as much of a strain on the motor as a built motor would, and not as moody.

[gazellebeigem3]

With horsepower being so cheap these days, Its not uncommon that my car is burned off a light by a soccer mom in her pontiac gtp or random rednecks in in a F-250. And forget comparing our cars to anything in the sports car market, even base model hondas are putting out more power. While its not all about straight line acceleration, it does frustrate me so for that reason im going the turbo m50 route. But i wont handle as well, my weight balance will be off, blah blah blah, i have had my fun with the m42, its gotta go!

[D. Clay]

From the Lou Reed - Velvet Underground song, "Heroin"
and I guess I just don't know.....
and I guess I just can't say.
After WWII, Americans were introduced to sports cars by the MG TD. The first "foreign" car was the 36 HP VW Beetle. Both were snail "slow" and fun. They were loved by their owners and became pop culture icons. E30's have a bit of that. Other cars are better from one perspective or the other.
Sometimes I am tempted to "unmod" mine.

[M42boy]

With horsepower being so cheap these days, Its not uncommon that my car is burned off a light by a soccer mom in her pontiac gtp or random rednecks in in a F-250. And forget comparing our cars to anything in the sports car market, even base model hondas are putting out more power. While its not all about straight line acceleration, it does frustrate me so for that reason im going the turbo m50 route. But i wont handle as well, my weight balance will be off, blah blah blah, i have had my fun with the m42, its gotta go!
I'll run the M42 hard and put it away wet. I'm not concerned with longevity as when she blows, it will be the excuse I need to drop in an M50.

I heard the same thing about balance.... I was thinking there might be a way to get the M50 further back in the engine bay, but looks pretty tight in all the conversions I've seen.

Everything is a compromise. :cool:

[///Motorsport]

i think my situation sums up some points here about enthusiasts and irrationality.

okay so every day i drive a 2002 Subaru WRX. it has over 300 horsepower and torque, spits flames and sounds so mean. New suspension, upgraded brakes, handles like a dream and looks sexy, etc. Yet i just flew down to southern california to buy a 318is. Why? because i want a bmw, and although i can barely afford a 325is, i woudlnt opt for it because i would have no money for suspension and other upgrades.

Also, i began to flal in love with the m42, as i had teh 2002. its lighter and more robust, and unique, which matters to me. everyone here has a wrx now, and i feel like i know the most about them and they just rice them out, kind of sickening. Also, the wrx i drive was run into a curb at 35, by my mother, so even after replacements it will never be true at 8+/10. so hence me rushing out to buy a car that i can just drive by myself in the mountains.

too bad the sellerjust told me he is giving it to a friend, not selling it to me.. crap.

[JungleGus]

the balance! why do ya think BMW used the e30 m3 as a 4 cyl for racing? sure its barely noticeable on the street mostly, but get it on the track and/or having fun on the road and you will notice the lack of weight, mainly because you lose it over the front axle. so much so, i have a M325i with a healthy m20 (conservatively 180hp) and if i am to turbo, am seriously considering buying a iS wreck to steal the engine out of! i am awesome.

[///Motorsport]

okay, i now own one, and i am in love with the four cylinder high revving raspyness. this car is a DREAM in the twisties, and once i get more suspension goodies i think it'll be unstoppale by other BMWS. (as long as its on a downhill/flat...) Now i see why people love the m42, and try to stick with it.

[mgold]

I've thought about doing a swap as well, but I love having a little 4-banger under the hood, nice and light. I would love to do an S-14 swap, Bill Arnold has done it sucessfully, but he's a mechanic and has the time to fiddle with adjusting valves and cams, etc. For me the M42 is pretty user-friendly (unless you start taking it apart). If I were to consider an I-6 swap it would have to be for an M50/S50, like my buddy Aaron who's swapping an M50 into his 318ic. I would never even consider swapping in an M20. If the thought even crossed my mind it would involve me selling my car and get a 325i with it already installed.

[silverblades181]

After doing 2 driving school with 2 different instructors, they both told me they much prefer the 4 cyl. bimmers (E30s) since they are that much more predictable and balanced. Aside from owning an E30 M3, I think we have the best track rat as far as E30s go. If drag racing or good old torque is what your looking for, then a 6 cyl might be what you want to do. I think it all comes down to personal preference, driving style etc... My friend is quite good in his E28 535i on the track...and it's a big boat if you ask me but he likes it and does well with it.

[sheepdog]

After doing 2 driving school with 2 different instructors, they both told me they much prefer the 4 cyl. bimmers (E30s) since they are that much more predictable and balanced. Aside from owning an E30 M3, I think we have the best track rat as far as E30s go. If drag racing or good old torque is what your looking for, then a 6 cyl might be what you want to do. I think it all comes down to personal preference, driving style etc... My friend is quite good in his E28 535i on the track...and it's a big boat if you ask me but he likes it and does well with it.

I have been told by more than one person that the 318is is more fun on a track than the M3 due to the M3's weight.

[christophbmw]

..............'cause anybody could do a 6 cyl. swap........it takes an entusiast to get more power from the little 4 banger. Besides, BMW's arent stoplight racers, they are made for momentum driving, which to tell you the truth....thats what the M42 does best in the E30! just my 2 cents.

[mgold]

..............'cause anybody could do a 6 cyl. swap........it takes an entusiast to get more power from the little 4 banger. Besides, BMW's arent stoplight racers, they are made for momentum driving, which to tell you the truth....thats what the M42 does best in the E30! just my 2 cents.
And besides, we're getting 28-32mpg doing it (your mileage may vary depending on the weight of your right foot :))

[christophbmw]

And besides, we're getting 28-32mpg doing it (your mileage may vary depending on the weight of your right foot :))
ya but even with a heavy foot were still kicking the 6 cyl guys ass when it comes to MPG. :)

[silverblades181]

I filled up in the morning, drove 100 km to the track, did 4 sessions with the foot to the floor pretty much all the time, drove back in the little roads and stopped at a restaurant (at least 150 km), and I still had about half a tank :D I'd like to see a 6 cyl. do that!

[mgold]

I filled up in the morning, drove 100 km to the track, did 4 sessions with the foot to the floor pretty much all the time, drove back in the little roads and stopped at a restaurant (at least 150 km), and I still had about half a tank :D I'd like to see a 6 cyl. do that!
Lets see here...1km=0.62miles, so lets see here, that's 62 miles to the track, and another 93 miles back plus all that track driving...hmmm pretty good.

[D. Clay]

I don't care about the mileage as long as it's over 25 MPG.
I like it because of it's looks and the fun factor. Plus, my wife and daughters think it's cute.