Who Killed the Electric Car?

[bmwman91]

I finally saw this documentary today. To sum up my feelings, I am pissed off and definitely a little doubtful about the future of this nation.

It was a great idea, and the car itself was a VERY good start for the technology. It is a travesty that it was pulled from the market, and a damn crime that GM deliberately erased its existence from the planet. I used to feel sorry for them in the predicament that they are in financially. Now I hope they rot in corporate hell (I guess that would be bankruptcy) for their short-term thinking. I am sorry if anyone's livelihood is based upon employment there, but blame your employer for its poor choices, not little angry me!

Furthermore, I will NEVER purchase a GM vehicle, nor will I tell anyone I know to do so. I hold GM primarily responsible for what happened (there were many others too, but GM should have had a backbone). If they want my money and support, it will be when they produce another electric vehicle, assuming they are not the last ones to do it.

[ak96ss]

I finally saw this documentary today. To sum up my feelings, I am pissed off and definitely a little doubtful about the future of this nation.

It was a great idea, and the car itself was a VERY good start for the technology. It is a travesty that it was pulled from the market, and a damn crime that GM deliberately erased its existence from the planet. I used to feel sorry for them in the predicament that they are in financially. Now I hope they rot in corporate hell (I guess that would be bankruptcy) for their short-term thinking. I am sorry if anyone's livelihood is based upon employment there, but blame your employer for its poor choices, not little angry me!

Furthermore, I will NEVER purchase a GM vehicle, nor will I tell anyone I know to do so. I hold GM primarily responsible for what happened (there were many others too, but GM should have had a backbone). If they want my money and support, it will be when they produce another electric vehicle, assuming they are not the last ones to do it.

Well, now, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel!


:)

I would suggest that you not base your entire opinion of the EV1 story (or, really, ANY topic) on that one movie, which is obviously written/directed/produced with a lean on muckraking rather than impartiality.

The bottom line, as I see it, is that GM is responsible for one thing, and one thing only: to make money. Corporate activism and 'feel-good' PR, while they may be nice, are not the goal of a for-profit organization. Sure, they have to cast an eye towards the future, but let's be realistic - a company can still investigate ways to shift to other power sources and not market that technology. GM may not be putting as much money into alternative fuel vehicles as, say, BMW, but they aren't sitting on their laurels, either.

Besides, batteries have to get their power from somewhere, right? The electric car really only shifts the pollution away from the consumer and to the generator of that power.

The EV1 was a losing proposition for them from the start, given the battery technology that existed at the time and the LOW number of people who actually leased one. 60 to 80 miles on a charge?? I drive more than that to work and back - what, I should take a break in the middle of my drive home and charge the car for 10 hours?

Check out http://fyi.gmblogs.com/2006/06/who_ignored_the_facts_about_th.html for GM's take on the matter.

Now, if you want to see a good 'documentary,' watch America: Freedom to Fascism - that'll get your panties in a wad! :D

[ClubSport]

Besides, batteries have to get their power from somewhere, right? The electric car really only shifts the pollution away from the consumer and to the generator of that power.


Bingo.

[318is91]

ev1 was ridiculously priced (as in the only owners were movie stars and the like that also owned gas hog luxury cars and sports cars), The technology just wasn't there and still isn't quite there as far as batteries are concerned and AK's comment was dead on,

Have you seen GMs new electric car (prototype but heavily slated for production) with a on board 1 cylinder turbo engine that acts purely as a generator (ie. it only comes on when the batteries are low) and it can also be plugged in and get charged? This way it is very usable in todays environment (unlike the EV1) and be incredibly fuel efficient.

GM took the pure electric car as far as they could (ie. they have everything but the batteries needed) and realized it just wasn't feasible in that times market.

on another note i will also never purchase a gm car I am a mechanic and there quality is sub par in my personal opinion.

also do you realize all the nasty chemical fumes batteries give off? in some ways electric cars have worse emissions then the new diesels or regular automobiles (which by the way diesels are the way of the future in my opinion)

[ak96ss]

on another note i will also never purchase a gm car I am a mechanic and there quality is sub par in my personal opinion.

Oh, hell yeah. I wasn't even going down that road, I was a GM man for years - and I don't believe I'll ever buy another one!

[318is91]

sry double post

[D. Clay]

Well, now, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel!
The bottom line, as I see it, is that GM is responsible for one thing, and one thing only: to make money.
That's really a blow job of corporate speak PR. Never mind the "social contract" and all that other stuff, they are controlled by a class of people who's interests do not always coincide with either short or long term profits. Their compensation is based on stock options and getting the price of the stock to go higher. It's a coincidence when that results in profitability. When the turkey has been milked to where it is on life support, they "vest" the employees in part ownership and leave them with the rotting carcass.
In a weaker moment I started a blog. There's an entry on what I think is wrong with US automakers:
http://mydrive.roadfly.com/blog/dwilsonc

[bmwman91]

Well, now, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel!


:)

I would suggest that you not base your entire opinion of the EV1 story (or, really, ANY topic) on that one movie, which is obviously written/directed/produced with a lean on muckraking rather than impartiality.

The bottom line, as I see it, is that GM is responsible for one thing, and one thing only: to make money. Corporate activism and 'feel-good' PR, while they may be nice, are not the goal of a for-profit organization. Sure, they have to cast an eye towards the future, but let's be realistic - a company can still investigate ways to shift to other power sources and not market that technology. GM may not be putting as much money into alternative fuel vehicles as, say, BMW, but they aren't sitting on their laurels, either.

Besides, batteries have to get their power from somewhere, right? The electric car really only shifts the pollution away from the consumer and to the generator of that power.

The EV1 was a losing proposition for them from the start, given the battery technology that existed at the time and the LOW number of people who actually leased one. 60 to 80 miles on a charge?? I drive more than that to work and back - what, I should take a break in the middle of my drive home and charge the car for 10 hours?

Check out http://fyi.gmblogs.com/2006/06/who_ignored_the_facts_about_th.html for GM's take on the matter.

Now, if you want to see a good 'documentary,' watch America: Freedom to Fascism - that'll get your panties in a wad! :D
Paragraph by paragraph.....let's see:
I definitely take documentaries of this genre with a grain of salt. I feel that it was pretty well balanced, considering a documentary always has a premise.

Yes. They took the easy, short-term route. The Hummer, whee. Now they are screwed. Developing the Hummer H1 into ANYTHING was not a smart, forward-thinking maneuver. It was a move banking on kickbacks from the government and oil companies, and the immediate income from image-obsessed consumers. A company IS responsible for making $, and above that is responsible to its shareholders. Short-term thinking is bad for shareholders, and as such is a bad strategy overall.

Technology has changed since then, but even at the time it was not really true. The inherent efficiencies of the EV design allowed you to get more work out of one unit of "wall-energy" than a regular car gets from one unit of internal combustion motor-produced energy (neither gets one unit out of one unit, but the EV1's fraction was bigger).

The battery argument was one of GM's "pigeon hole the idea" strategies. They were using lead-acid batteriees. NiCD batteries existed, and using them produced FAR better performance in every respect. There is plenty of information about the NiCD battery option on the EV1 all over the web. GM intended for this to fail from day 1.

Haha, yes I have seen the Freedom to Fascism. There are MANY bold claims in that, and all in all it qualifies as nutty and unprofessional compared to the EV1 documantary. The impression I got from the FtF doc was that the guy did not like paying taxes (who does?!) and that he was insinuating that some evil corporation controls all the $ in the nation. My "wacky conspiracy theorist" alarm went off when I watched it. I am NOT trying to bag on your intelligence or anything, everyone gets opinions and is entitled to them. I just like to debate.

ev1 was ridiculously priced (as in the only owners were movie stars and the like that also owned gas hog luxury cars and sports cars), The technology just wasn't there and still isn't quite there as far as batteries are concerned and AK's comment was dead on,

Have you seen GMs new electric car (prototype but heavily slated for production) with a on board 1 cylinder turbo engine that acts purely as a generator (ie. it only comes on when the batteries are low) and it can also be plugged in and get charged? This way it is very usable in todays environment (unlike the EV1) and be incredibly fuel efficient.

GM took the pure electric car as far as they could (ie. they have everything but the batteries needed) and realized it just wasn't feasible in that times market.

on another note i will also never purchase a gm car I am a mechanic and there quality is sub par in my personal opinion.

also do you realize all the nasty chemical fumes batteries give off? in some ways electric cars have worse emissions then the new diesels or regular automobiles (which by the way diesels are the way of the future in my opinion)

Yes, it was very expensive. That is just how new technology starts out. Had it been REALLY marketed, PROPERLY, it would have caught on and prices would have dropped. I believe it is called miniaturization of technology, in more than a literal sense of course.

I am glad they are trying again, but I suspect it is only because their competitors already began investing there. The "usability" argument does not stick with me. The car had a range of 60-90 miles on the crap batteries (110 or something on the NiCD ones). The average consumer drives 29 miles a day. It was a car that catered to 90% of heavy commuters, with NO need for gasoline in any way shape or form. That's the whole point I am getting at. You have the EV1/whatever for the shorter trips, and ones where you normally sit idling. That is when you get the WORST mileage...short trips involve a cold engine that might not even warm up fully (and all modern cars run warm-up enrichments, using FAR more gas until the motor is warmed up). Idling...well no need to explain that one. The EV1 would cut down on SO much waste! Keep gas car for the occasional long trip.

I particularly liked the quote in the movie about the American consumer, regarding energy use. It was something along the lines of, "You cannot ask them to leave the thermostat off in their house and drive a super tiny fuel efficient car. No American wants to live like a European!"

As far as chemical pollutants, it is a huge debate. At this point though, greenhouse gases are the issue. They threaten the whole planet with climate change. The heavy metals, even if they are as leaky as opponents propose, are a localized threat rather than a global one. Lesser of 2 evils IMO. I hate discussing Global Warming anymore. It has become an issue of politics...science has no place in it anymore as far as the public is concerned. It is a damn circus, and it really makes me ashamed to call myself an American sometimes. I love this country and its ideals, but people are all too willing to let others crap on them: life is so comfy anyway, who wants to take the time to care?!

[D. Clay]

One day at arace track in the early 90's I was sitting on top of the pit cart watching GT-1's go by at 185 MPH when suddenly I had the overwhelming sensation that we were all mad - totally insane.
Sometimes, usually on the Interstate, I get a feeling of how insane the "car" is, how much fuel is being burned by them all, and how we are like the dinosaurs that rotted in fern bogs to make it all and that we are just as doomed.
It passes. Sometimes I'm still as excited about cars as when I was a teenager and couldn't wait to drive one. I can still just totally space out working on my M-forty-f**king-two.

[bmwman91]

I share the feeling. The idea of a quiet, smooth sports car just does not appeal to me like a snorting coach that lets you feel what it is doing.

While the relience on fossil-fueled cars and their impact is due to EVERYONE driving them, something still blows me away. SUV's, and the way people drive them. I am not just talking about the people who commute in stop & go traffic in them. The people that cause me to worry about the future of mankind are the ones who have SUV's and blast past me on the highway when I am already doing 75. It happens ALL the time. Yet, these same shortsighted people are the first to use excessive gas prices as small-talk when you are standing in the elevator next to them. Short-sightedness, thy name is man. Hell, there are still times where I redline the M42 just because it is so damn fun for absolutely no other reason.

Now I am certainly not on some binge of casting off all things that are wasteful. I would like to, but you cannot get by in the world we live in doing so. Sadly, we have built our own prison cell in which we are all rotting, but most have not realized that we are in it yet. I certainly owe my desire to learn and excel at the technical arts to the internal combustion engine. Thanks to my cars, I have learned about control systems, chemistry, and some manufacturing principles. The world would not be what it is without the IC engine, and there is still a lot of good in the world.

Unfortunately, people who are very influential are not ready for new technology to displace them from their comfort zones. Change is hard, always. It sucks, but it is just the way it is. Hopefully someone will find a way to make living in a conservative manner profitable because money is the ONLY motivator of change in the society in which we live. Chances are that a Mad-Max type future is in the works well before that.

[sheepdog]

Just a info to throw in here, if all cars were charged by the worst coal burning generators, it would still pollute 50% less than cars on the road today. With wind, solar and hydro-electric dams it becomes very eco-friendly.

A single large generator is much more efficient than thousands of little engines. Electric is the only viable alternative to fossil duels at the moment. Hydrogen is decades away and ethanol pollutes more than gasoline.


Manufacturers are determined to keep a combustion engine in your car for good good reasons. Electric cars are simple, far fewer parts to break and need repair. That kills of several side industries as well, such as engine remanufacturing, parts stores, etc... You would also put a lot of people out of work.

I honestly think it is the best way to go for the environment though.


Good movie by the way.

[christophbmw]

I read a quote in road in track the other day. It read: ".....we are supposed to be in flying cars by now, but we are still having muscle car wars." i think it was in one of Peter Egans issues, anyway it really hits the spot.

And i dont know if you guys have been paying attention but the electric car is SLOWLY coming back. There is the new Tesla (for rich simi valley computer nerds.....a bit overpriced too), and a bunch of other new electric cars coming into the u.s. market. In fact at the local mall here in northern cal there are parking spots for electric cars only, and they have chargers so you can charge your car while you shop.....to bad i saw a hybrid ford escape parked in one, just shows how dumb we really are. But what makes us look stupid is we all know that gas will hit $5 by the end of summer (already at $4.02 where i live) but yet we stil drive our huge ass trucks for comuter cars.....or as i call them: "little-penis trucks".

I geuss all of us here on this forum have *decent* cars for the enviroment. Not to mention they look a hell of alot better (and they are safer in many ways) then a new hummer.:rolleyes:

[D. Clay]

....or as i call them: "little-penis trucks".

forget where I read it...."Dodge Viper, the car with a foreskin!"