Yet Another stroker M42

[cecotto]

After having spent the last ~18 months collecting parts, planning and changing my mind over and over again about where to take this rebuild. I’m finally focused and have a clear mindset on where I’m heading.

I started out wanting to build a stroked M42 maybe also some mild sports cams and that was supposed to be IT. But inside I knew that I really wanted to do more. Well a lot more. But the 318is being my daily driver sort of made me more or less conservative on my decisions.

The first thing I ordered was the cams they were ordered for hydraulic lifters, but once they were finished and I had to pay for them I realized that this wasen’t what I really wanted. So I asked the manufacturer if I could still change my mind on the cams…. They said Okay and I went ahead having them produce a set of cams for mechanical operation. The head is being converted to a shim-under setup and will be designed to be able to rev all the way to 8500 rpm.

The second thing I ordered was the pistons, they are JE-Pistons. With a compression ratio of 11:1. I spent months thinking about the CR. And finally decided on this.. Got them last Friday.

I’ve also got the M47 88mm crank, this was actually the first thing I got my hands on and was what sparked it all.

I think this is going to be the week where I’m ordering some Arrow Connecting rods, with these I think I’m also going to have a solid bottom end.

The engine will also have a set of dBilas individual throttle bodies, I really got a very good deal on these used.

I’m planning to be installing a Haltech E11v2 ECU which is kind off overkill, but it’s good value for the money. And will be able to control up to 12 cylinders for future projects. + it has loads of features.

As a summary:
• Stroke = 88mm
• Bore = 86mm
• Compression = 11:1
• Displacement = 2043ccm (~14% increase)
• Intake = dBilas ITB
• Valve actuation = Shim under, mechanical
• Cams: 273° Intake (10.95mm lift, 2.25@TDC)
• Cams: 266° Exhaust (10.95mm lift, 1.7mm@TDC)
• Engine Control = 89% decided on the Haltech

The cams are specified for Rally & Cross, but the pistons are made for accepting full race cams. So if the cams turn out to be too conservative I’m planning to at a later stage swap them out.

For those that are thinking, this engine are gonna blow sooner or later.. I'm not building it to last 200.000km anyway. I'll be happy with about 75.000 - 100.000 km's before the first rebuild..

BTW.
1. I'm not into forced induction so please don't bring up the DASC
2. I'm into high reving 4-cyls. so please don't bring up any S5x engines.
They're also illegal to install in my car so this is not an option.

[romkasponka]

I want ITB too :)

[dude8383]

what! that sounds like an insane setup.

Sam (Febi Guibo) has a similiar setup.

I'm going to be going with a 2cc increase as well.

[asubimmer]

awsome, no worries. noone here will try to get you to go s5x

[2002maniac]

That should make very good power. Nice parts list!

[dude8383]

how much is this running you btw...if you don't mind asking?

[cecotto]

how much is this running you btw...if you don't mind asking?

I'll know when i'm finished...But i have pretty much decided not to keep track.

But i'm in the buisness so a lot of it is pure netto prices, and other stuff has been given to me. Also some used parts which is cheap.

But it's expensive no question about it... A project like this can't be realised by peanuts ;-)

[MustPayDaddy]

got any pics of your itb setup?

if you got your hands on an m47 crank that easily, maybe you should try goin into the business of tracking down and selling them to some members here :rolleyes:

[dude8383]

I'll know when i'm finished...But i have pretty much decided not to keep track.

But i'm in the buisness so a lot of it is pure netto prices, and other stuff has been given to me. Also some used parts which is cheap.

But it's expensive no question about it... A project like this can't be realised by peanuts ;-)

haha yeh i understand...i decided not to count as well but i was looking for a rough estimate..

can you get those "netto prices" for me?? :D

[cecotto]

got any pics of your itb setup?

if you got your hands on an m47 crank that easily, maybe you should try goin into the business of tracking down and selling them to some members here :rolleyes:

I'll try and get you a couple of images of the ITB setup, later this week.

The parts aren't in my own garage...

[cecotto]

haha yeh i understand...i decided not to count as well but i was looking for a rough estimate..

can you get those "netto prices" for me?? :D

I think around 5-6000 USD will be about right.. But i'll probberly never know for sure :-D

BTW. It's a nice collection of similar projects that are going on on this site, i think it's great this site has been created!

I've read a lot of threads on bimmerforums, and they dont seem to appreciate our engines too much. And i was getting sick of seing the same replies, Why not S5x or DASC??? I Haven't contributed much there though.

[dino245]

I see from your profile that you have an E30 M3, I was wondering what your impression is of the two cars, 318IS and M3.

I always loved the M3 of that era because of its race heratige and have often thought of braking down and buying one but have not because I love my little 318IS. Also the lighter weight of the 318IS is atractive on the track, easier on tires and brakes.

[cecotto]

I see from your profile that you have an E30 M3, I was wondering what your impression is of the two cars, 318IS and M3.

I always loved the M3 of that era because of its race heratige and have often thought of braking down and buying one but have not because I love my little 318IS. Also the lighter weight of the 318IS is atractive on the track, easier on tires and brakes.

I think im on the third year owning the M3, it's always been a dream for me to own one. And it feels great to have realised this dream. But actually i dont drive it much, only during nice and dry weather. I have brought it down to the Nürburgring a couple of times, but i've never been happy about tortureing it round the track. And i'm not a great driver anyway....

The 318is on the other hand, i think i've had this for close to 7 years. and i have driven close to 120.000km in it so far. So i know it pretty well, and i'm not too concerned about the cosmetics about it. So i feel more spirited and free driving this. Having recently retrofitted a complete M3 suspension on the 318is i actually sometimes feel its better handling than the M3.

The suspension on the M3 is a KW Competition coilover setup with very stiff springs, so it's not comfortable on the streets. But on highspeed backroads it feels quite good. So after driving the M3 i often say to my self, No way the 318is is as good as this..

So to sum it all up.. I think with some good suspension components you can have a lot of fun with the 318is. Theres actually no need for absolutely retrofitting an M3 suspension... I was only lucky to come across the front struts for cheap.. and made the decission.. Ended up being too expensive as i had to buy a lot of parts new... But wow the braking is very precise and feels much better than the 2cm smaller brakes on the non M E30

[dino245]

thank you for the info, I dont feel so bad now. I like being able to beat a car on the track and not worry about it. I live in snow country so I too would be hesitant about driving the M3 which would make owning it a bit of a burden. I love my 318is.

[cecotto]

Just as a quick update Ive made the final decission on the cams they're a bit hotter that first advertised. I've made myself a comparison sheet, which i think helps me some. In seing the cams in relation to similar, and other cams.

As i said, i've removed the hydraulic lifters in favour of mechanical shim under buckets. This makes the moving mass ~60 grams lighter than a standard S14B20 per. valve. Thats a valvetrain thats ~960grams lighter in total(Compared to the S14B20).

I bought a S42 cylinderhead oilrestrictor too. which will be installed in the block to restrict oilflow to the cyl.head. And keep the oil in the bottom end, where it's got a bigger job to do.

I'll have to get a S42 main bearing too, i want to see what they did to those in relation to oil ways. And replicate this on the standard mainbearings to save money. The conrod bearings will just be standard OE, no need for mods there i think.

The block will be bored within the next two weeks, so its getting closer to assembly time.... Forgot.. I'll have to save up for some rods, and an ECU.. :-(

[RED E30]

Awesome sounding project. Could you please give me some more info on how you went about converting to a mechanical valvetrain?

[romkasponka]

where did you get solid lifters, are they from other stock engine?

[cecotto]

Awesome sounding project. Could you please give me some more info on how you went about converting to a mechanical valvetrain?

I think i'll get the cylinderhead next week, or very early next week-again. Then i'll shoot some pics of all the parts.

where did you get solid lifters, are they from other stock engine?

The head is at Catcams at the moment, where they have been measuring things out for the conversion. So all valvetrain parts will be Catcams, except for the valves themselves which is stock.

[Febi Guibo]

sorry, I'm late to this thread... this sounds sweet! did you consider overboring out to 88mm?

keep us updated!

[cecotto]

Hi Febi.

88mm you must be mad!!! Well i dont know if it can be (safely) done. So it's wrong of me to be calling you mad. :-)

But no i haven't considered this. I did think about 86.5mm. But as it's also stroked the rod-ratio gives more sidewall forces. And i'm building it for high RPM (Double RPM and forces are squared!!), so i chose to play it on the safe side. I woulden't like to see cylinder distorsion as a result of getting "displacement greedy" thats power-robbing.

I am aware of the fact that rod-ratio wise we're better off than the US M3 3.2L (135/89.6=1.5) Mine will be: 140/88=1.59. I haven't analysed what this means in raw numbers. But for those interested Gustave on www.e30m3performance.com has a spreadsheet that will show this graphically. (BTW. the S42 has 145/85=1.7)

I will keep the progress updated, it's kind of standing still at the moment. I need to drop the block of at the machine shop. And decide on some rods. Also i hope to soon get the head back. Once these things has fallen into place i'm ready to start assembling.. (it'll be months before it will be started up :-( )

Febi, i've both read about your engine, and seen the video from Metric mechanic. It sounds like a well built engine, but i think we're a couple of people who would like to get some more technical details about it. Im interested in all the info i can get on whats people are doing.

[cecotto]

........ but i think we're a couple of people who would like to get some more technical details about it. Im interested in all the info i can get on whats people are doing.


I just saw Metric Mechanic has published a brochure about their engine:
http://www.metricmechanic.com/pdfs/M42_M44_Engine_Series.pdf

I haven't seen it before..

[nickmpower]

have you decided what rods you are going with? i think i may just use m44. I dunno.... Those 360 degree bearings MM has seem like a good idea, but after looking at the m47 crank it looks liek they arent nessary because the crank has 2 holes in the main bearings

[cecotto]

have you decided what rods you are going with? i think i may just use m44. I dunno.... Those 360 degree bearings MM has seem like a good idea, but after looking at the m47 crank it looks liek they arent nessary because the crank has 2 holes in the main bearings

Hey Nick

I was very much focused on some Verdi rods, but they are pretty hung up at the moment. So it woulden't be until early feburary before i could get some rods. So i'm weighing my options, something needs to happen.. I even talked to Eagle, They're 100% sure the M42s got 135mm rods. And wont make 140mm. Arrows are too expensive. But i'm talking so another manufacturer who can make them for me.

About the mainbearings being bored all the way through. I knew that, but actually didn't think of that when i saw what MM did, good observation!. I'm sticking with the OE setup anyway. Allthough the S42 (I like comparing everything to that) did have a similar setup to MM's. I think I'll be allright anyway. Also i'll be using an oil-restrictor. Hope that will prove a good decission.

There's no question about the MM engine is a well thought out piece of machinery. Which probberly will last a long time, but i think at the extra cost one could make a mid-life light overhaul/inspection and still save some money. And in the process see if your thoughts and decissions has been sound or not. Learning something in the process too, thats even more valuable.

A thing that keeps nagging me is that i have never read anything good about using slitted pistons in a performance engine. But it seems MMs pretty happy about them. I have only read that the slitting weakens the piston, and i've seen images of wrecked pistons as well. But i guess someone could show images of non-slitted failed pistons also.

[Gizmo318i]

I can say with personal experience that you will be blown away with the outcome of your motor. The torque is insane!!!

[cecotto]

Okay,

Recieved some parts today, here are some images:

[nickmpower]

have you decided on rods? also, how do you adjust those lifters?

[silverblades181]

sweet. I need more details on those parts! Whats the spec on those cams? Double valve springs and solid lifters? where did you get all that?

[cecotto]

have you decided on rods? also, how do you adjust those lifters?

Hi Nick.

Check out those tiny caps, they are placed on the valve stem, and are available in different thicknesses for the adjustment of the valve clearance.

This is a very lightweight approach, but also very cumbersome to adjust. you have to pull the cams...

The M3 has large shims on top of the lifters, as you can imagine those are quite a bit heavier. But has the advantage of being easy to adjust if you have the special bucket depresser..

I'll have to get back to you on the rods, i wont make a decission untill January. I might get some inspiration at the PRI in Florida next week, i'm really looking forward to that!

[cecotto]

sweet. I need more details on those parts! Whats the spec on those cams? Double valve springs and solid lifters? where did you get all that?

Thanks, Please read the thread, Alle details on the parts are present :-)

[AL GReeNeRy]

that valvetrain setup i HOT! all from catcams eh? im guessing its all custom correct? do they have ready made kits for cam upgrades?

[cecotto]

that valvetrain setup i HOT! all from catcams eh? im guessing its all custom correct? do they have ready made kits for cam upgrades?

Catcams: YES

They should be able to provide you with what you want!

They didn't have specific measurements for the cylinderhead when i first talked to them. So i sent them mine, and they were kind enough to measure everything out for me.

But be warned, allthough it's all measured out dosent mean it's just plug'n'play. You will have to check EVERYTHING, i found that i will have to grind ~0,5mm off the top of the valve collets. To provide the shim-collet clearance nessasary (0,4mm). The shim was sitting on the collet.

You could come up with other solutions to the problem, but i found this to be the easyist. And most straight forward. I've seen Schrick valves with only one groove, so i think i'll be okay with 2½ groove.

Where dit all my money go.. :-(

BTW: I have plans on drawing up some valve lift curves on both standard cams and the rally cams. for comparison. I could post the curves in near future if theres interest

[nickmpower]

hmmm. Im gunna wanna decide in the next couple weeks. maybe i:ll get some from MM if they have the right size

[Lund8200]

Looks good, Otto....

We have talked together some time ago about your projekt, I am on the way with a somehow similar one.

Have now found a used M47 crank and it is on its way to me now.
Have just ordered pistons for my set-up, am planning to use those from a Peugeot 406 with a 86 mm. bore.
Had an old M40 engine lying around in my backyard and are using the rods from this, these are 135 mm.

The cylinderhead is done, with new valvetrains and re-cut seats.
Havent decided on cams yet, yours look good, but also very expensive and my engine budget cant cut it.

Hope to see more of you projekt soon....


Thomas from Carl Christensen, if you remember me.....

[cecotto]

Hej Thomas

Rart at høre fra dig uden det skal dreje sig om arbejde:-)

Jeg hører meget gerne om dit projekt. Også selvom mit måske er dyrer, så synes jeg at det er meget interasant at høre andres meninger. Samt de veje de har tænkt sig at gå.

Julen er dyr, og forsikringer samt vægtafgift kommer i Januar.. Så jeg holder lidt lav profil med mine indkøb et lille stykke tid..

(In english: Nothing interesting just friendly talk :-))

[cecotto]

Update:

Did some weighting last friday:

-----------------------------------------
New setup:
-----------------------------------------
Mechanical lifter: 47g
Collets: 1*2= 2g
Springs: 51g
Adjusting shim: 3g
Spring retainer: 20g
Intake valve: 58g
Exhaust valve: 54g
Total weighted weight(not calculated) Intake: 182g
Total weighted weight(not calculated) Exhaust: 178g

Total weight intake side: 8 * 182g = 1456g
Total weight exhaust side: 8 * 178g = 1424g
Total intake + exhaust side: 1456 + 1424 = 2.880g

-----------------------------------------
Stock setup:
-----------------------------------------
Hydraulic lifter: 80g (pumped full of water)
Collets: 1*2= 2g
Springs: 62g
Spring retainer: 17g
Intake valve: 58g
Exhaust valve: 54g
Total weighted weight(not calculated) Intake: 219g
Total weighted weight(not calculated) Exhaust: 215g

Total weight intake side: 8 * 219g = 1752g
Total weight exhaust side: 8 * 215g = 1720g
Total intake + exhaust side: 1752 + 1720 = 3.472g


Total weight difference: 592g (~0.6kg) / Around 20% weight cut.

I chose to not just add all the weights together, as i think this would increase inaccuracy, as the cullumative inaccuracy on all the different parts would be greater than weighing allparts together.

[nickmpower]

are you using 6mm valves?

I think i am going with eagle rods. they are $400 and weight 540g, as much as an m44 rod but are forged

[dino245]

sorry nickmpower eagle doesnt make rods for the M42/M44. They advertise that they do but they are the 135mm M20 rods that they say will work on the M42/M44. I spoke with some dude and he said that the "euro" motor had 135 rods which is not correct which is why he has posted that advert for M42/M44 rods. I am surprised they are still on there sight. You need 140mm rods.

[nickmpower]

fuck are you kidding me. damnit

[cecotto]

sorry nickmpower eagle doesnt make rods for the M42/M44. They advertise that they do but they are the 135mm M20 rods that they say will work on the M42/M44.

This is what i found too. I tried to talk some sense into them, But they insisted that the US engine had 135mm rods. I gave up, i guess they will have to dissapoint a couple of customers before they realize we're right..

[cecotto]

are you using 6mm valves?


This is 7mm valves, it would be nice to have the 6mm ones.. But this is where i say stop...

I need Rods, ECU, machine work, bearings, etc..

But i have been thinking about prepping another head when i finally get the engine finished. I will just have to see the potential once it's trimmed. I'm not going to invest a whole lot more if it peaks at 180hp. :-p

[nickmpower]

yeah the 6mm are nice but when the timing guides break and the chain skips on one of the valves breaks off it make you wonder!

My pistons finally came. I kind of wish i would have gotten 86 or 85.5 but it should be fine. I might bite the bullet and have some VAC rods next dayed to me. My hopes is to get everything back from the machine shop by friday and the engine running by monday but i dont think the shop can work that fast

[dino245]

Nickmpower who did you get your pistons from?

Cecotto, as a comparison the total weight for the mechanical valve set up is about 52 grams (lifter bucket, shim, lash cap). This is a definatly a high reving engine with a radicle cam. But for those that would like the benifit of a lighter valve trane with out the valve adjustment issues. Use M50 6mm valve parts and VW hydro lifters and you are at less valve mass.

M50 6mm intake valve :46.5 grams
M50 6mm exhaust valve:48 grams
Hydro VW lifter :49 grams w/out oil 53 w/oil
Valve spring retainer :7.5 grams
valve keeper : 1 gram for both halves

This is a cheap and available alternative and if you are not reving past 7500 rpm you should be fine. The newest Ferrari's are all hyro lifter and rev to 8500 rpm all day long.

[nickmpower]

umm top end performance, same place as cecotto

[cecotto]

Nickmpower who did you get your pistons from?

Cecotto, as a comparison the total weight for the mechanical valve set up is about 52 grams (lifter bucket, shim, lash cap). This is a definatly a high reving engine with a radicle cam. But for those that would like the benifit of a lighter valve trane with out the valve adjustment issues. Use M50 6mm valve parts and VW hydro lifters and you are at less valve mass.

M50 6mm intake valve :46.5 grams
M50 6mm exhaust valve:48 grams
Hydro VW lifter :49 grams w/out oil 53 w/oil
Valve spring retainer :7.5 grams
valve keeper : 1 gram for both halves

This is a cheap and available alternative and if you are not reving past 7500 rpm you should be fine. The newest Ferrari's are all hyro lifter and rev to 8500 rpm all day long.

Hi dino

I only recently became aware of the lightweight options on the hydro valvetrain, But i'm actually quite happy with the choice i ended up with. Specially as it's kind of a personal study project. I feel i'm not limited in searching out the rev limit. I might find that my goal of 8500rpm will be too high. I see no reason for reving that high if it runs out of breath at 7500 rpm. Then i might regret going with the solid lifters. Also i'm thinking about raising the oil pressure, how will the lifters respond to this. And i'll be running an oil restrictor to the head to keep the majority of oil in the bottom end. So i think the solid lifters will give me better reliabilite in light of my other modifications.

About the ferrari on hydros. Have you ever heard it idling? I havent but im curious to hear if it sounds like the V10 M5/6 engine when thats idling. It's got some very distinct noices that i personally think are the hydro lifters which are made for high rpm. I haven't really ever gotten any explanations on why the M5 engine is noisy at idle.. so this i purely my speculation

[dino245]

Well as far as idle related noises the modern Ferraris make more noise out of the injectors than the lifters. I have had a 360 or 2 make lifter noise after sitting for long periods of time, like 2 weeks, but they pump up after the oil gets hot.

Since about the 550 and 360 era the injectors have gotten realy noise, perhaps the M5/M6 V10's are making the same noise. Power take Fuel so lots of power will require a large injector which will make more noise opening and closing.

[nickmpower]

Hi dino

I only recently became aware of the lightweight options on the hydro valvetrain, But i'm actually quite happy with the choice i ended up with. Specially as it's kind of a personal study project. I feel i'm not limited in searching out the rev limit. I might find that my goal of 8500rpm will be too high. I see no reason for reving that high if it runs out of breath at 7500 rpm. Then i might regret going with the solid lifters. Also i'm thinking about raising the oil pressure, how will the lifters respond to this. And i'll be running an oil restrictor to the head to keep the majority of oil in the bottom end. So i think the solid lifters will give me better reliabilite in light of my other modifications.

About the ferrari on hydros. Have you ever heard it idling? I havent but im curious to hear if it sounds like the V10 M5/6 engine when thats idling. It's got some very distinct noices that i personally think are the hydro lifters which are made for high rpm. I haven't really ever gotten any explanations on why the M5 engine is noisy at idle.. so this i purely my speculation


do you think the engine can take that many rpm?

[cecotto]

do you think the engine can take that many rpm?

I sure do, i have no doubt about this!!

But i dont know for how long though, but as i have already written i'm not building it to last 200.000km anyway. And it wil most likely see a mid-life rebuild / inspection.

I have no problem with the reduced engine life the extra rpm will result in. Also it's a street car that will se probberly very little track driving.

[Lund8200]

Hi Otto,

Your crankshaft having its mainbearing polished....
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5938/ottom478ko.jpg

The nose has been grinded already.
Im´not waisting any time, as you see....:D

[cecotto]

Hi Otto,

Your crankshaft having its mainbearing polished....
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5938/ottom478ko.jpg

The nose has been grinded already.
Im´not waisting any time, as you see....:D


Hi Thomas

Looks great, i wasen't expecting extra finishing work. The mains we're looking a bit dull, so thanks a lot for the extra effort.

For those not familiar with Lund8200 he's also doing a stroker using the M47 crank.

[nickmpower]

are you using a new or used crank?

[cecotto]

are you using a new or used crank?

I'm using a used crank, it had already had the woodruff key machined when i got my hands on it. But the diameter had not been reworked yet. This is what Lund has taken care of for me.

[cecotto]

I've just been looking at the M44 headgasket.

The bores measure 86mm, here's a picture.


Also i had pretty much given up on finding a suitable bolt for the front end of the crankshaft.

Much to Lund8200's credit this one came up:

11-23-1-440-076 Bolt M18x1,5x142

It might have to be shortened a couple of centimeters. But thats no problem.

[nickmpower]

I have put my engine together with the m44 gasket. I just used the stock m47bolt with out a washer

[nickmpower]

also the bore of the gasket deoesnt really matter as the pistions shouldnt pass the top of the block. I mainly did it because it seems like a better sealing gasket and my head has been shaved slightly

[cecotto]

also the bore of the gasket deoesnt really matter as the pistions shouldnt pass the top of the block. I mainly did it because it seems like a better sealing gasket and my head has been shaved slightly

Nick.

I disagree with you on the gasket. It's actually important to NOT have any sharp edges protruding into the cumbustion chamber, such edges have the potential to cause hot spots. Which can make it difficult to controll the ignition.

About the bolt, I appreciate a good solution that resembles the OE approach dimensionally. The bolt requires above 400 NM, so i would like to see good thread contact on at least 1.5*bolt diameter. (edit: I also believe the thick recessed washer has the job of steering the bolt, so it stays centered. Without it i fear the brutal tightening could force the bolt to be pulled off center)

[cecotto]

Finally got around to taking some images of the Dbilas individual throttle body setup.

They are 45mm in diameter.

[nickmpower]

damn where did u get them?

[silverblades181]

you must of paid a fortune for that...:eek:

[2002maniac]

Nice! The TB's look like DCOE's to me.

[cecotto]

Nice! The TB's look like DCOE's to me.

aren't dcoe's craburators?

These er decicated for fuel injection. If you look close they have provisions for further machining for a extra set of injectors. For when i'm going with staged injection..... :cool: ... Well perhaps not.. :p

[Tor Arne Kaasen]

Hei steffen otto jensen. nice project. i am also using an m47 crank. But cant deside on pistons. any suggestion? you talked aboute peugot model year etc?

[cecotto]

Hei steffen otto jensen. nice project. i am also using an m47 crank. But cant deside on pistons. any suggestion? you talked aboute peugot model year etc?


Hi' Tor.

I saw you got your Crank from Koed, It looks like a really good deal. I was wondering where that crank went, i could have sold that a few times :-)

I suggest you have some JE's made, you can get those at Koed as well. (I work there, but i'm not trying to be here as a sales man :-) )

About the pegeuot pistons, that is what Lund8200 is doing, i think it requires shawing about ,5mm off the top, and the use of 135mm rods. But perhaps that discussion is best taken in a seperate and dedicated therad for future refrence.

Anyway Tor you should start a thread outlining you thoughts on your project, i love reading about what people are doing.

Cheers

[Tor Arne Kaasen]

i think i have found suitebl pistons at http://www.bavauto.com/shop.asp these are for the m44 85 mm but over sized to 85,485 mm for a nice price.
do you think this will work whit 13,5 rods?

[kowalski]

why not just get custom made pistons?

[cecotto]

M44 Compression height: 30.40mm

M42 Compression height: 31.65mm

You need the Compression height to be 3.5mm shorter than the M42, but the M44 pistons are only 1.25mm shorter, I guess you could shave 2.25mm off the top. The pin is also 22mm so you will be okay there. The M44 has a compression ratio of 10:1, but using the shaved pistons(less volume in piston) will give you a compression ratio increase, Also you're stroked 4.5mm compared to the M44 engine from which the pistons come from, this extra cylinder volume will further bump the CR up. You could compensate with the +0.3mm head gasket. But I have no idea where your CR will end up. Sounds do-able though.

Using 135mm rods will position your pistons a couple of millimeters down the bore, and ruin your squish effect. I wouldent cut that corner..

I also looked into some suitable pistons to use for my project, but i ended up having some custom made.

A moderator should seperate this discussion from my thread, this subject is interesting enough on it's own!

[kowalski]

Well i have a the set of s52 pistons that have the head shaved 1mm already if somone wants to pick them up. it involves boring .20 over, but after that its plug and play. I'm going to need different pistons for my project... so if i've got them if you want them. i believe they give a 10.5:1 compression with the m44 crank and stock rods.

[steve321]

what sort of power do you expect to get??

steve

[cecotto]

what sort of power do you expect to get??

steve

Hmm..

I hope for approx. 200hp, but i really dont know.. This whole project emerged from my wish for more experience in engine building.. So wi'll see how it ends up.

A little update:
--------------
I ripped a second spare engine apart i had standing in a corner (The doner for the ITB), and it had 6mm valvestems, so i'm thinking about using that head instead.. Only catch is that i will need new spring retainers... The 6mm valves will save me another 140g as i remember.

By budget is kind of overheated at this moment in time, so i'm keeping a low profile in my buying...

This is what i need:
* Balancing crank
* Gasket set top + bottom
* Steel rods
* Make decissions on the head
* Engine management
* Check clearances..
* Assemble..

[stuartgallafant]

cecotto, your project sounds amazing!

i myself have just found an M47 crank, with the 88mm stroke to use. can you tell me exactly what i need to do to get this to work. i was also going to use custom pistons, but if i can get S50 pistons to work, what con-rods will i have to use?

i just need some ionfo on this, as i feel im a little in the dark!!

any help from anyone would be much appreciated

[tim_s]

aren't dcoe's craburators?

These er decicated for fuel injection. If you look close they have provisions for further machining for a extra set of injectors. For when i'm going with staged injection..... :cool: ... Well perhaps not.. :p

the dbilas TBs use a DCOE manifold to the m42 head and then DCOE-fitment throttle bodies. DCOE can refer to the flange style, not just the carbs themselves.

[cecotto]

the dbilas TBs use a DCOE manifold to the m42 head and then DCOE-fitment throttle bodies. DCOE can refer to the flange style, not just the carbs themselves.

Okay.

They also sell the manifold as a single part, so you could use that if you were to install craburators instead of fuel injected if i understand you correct. Or use some throttle bodies from another manufacturer instead... Right.

[cecotto]

cecotto, your project sounds amazing!

i myself have just found an M47 crank, with the 88mm stroke to use. can you tell me exactly what i need to do to get this to work. i was also going to use custom pistons, but if i can get S50 pistons to work, what con-rods will i have to use?

i just need some ionfo on this, as i feel im a little in the dark!!

any help from anyone would be much appreciated

Hi Stuart

Good luck on your own project, how about starting a thread on your rebuild. I'm interested in what you're up to...

Have a look at the two poor quality images i have attached.

This image is of my REWORKED crankshaft, This is what has been done to it.

1: Diameter of the shank has been reworked, i cant remember by how much(~0.5mm i think). But the sprocket has a loose fit, so give that to the machinist and he'll figure it out for you.

2: An extra woodruff keyway has been machined in it, as the original is positioned in a way that it has very little contact with the groove in the sprocket. So as a safety measure you should have an extra machined. The angular position of the new one is the same as the existing.

I hope this makes sense.

[cecotto]

I was also going to use custom pistons, but if i can get S50 pistons to work, what con-rods will i have to use?


I'll try and help you out with this. But sorry i dont have any illustrations to back the explanations up.... Even though this is simple stuff, try and go through it slowly, and try and visualize this in your head...

M42 Technical data:

Block height = 212mm
(Distance fron the center of the mainbearings to the deck of the block.)

Rod length = 140mm
(Distance from the center of the large rod bore to the center of the small rod bore)

Compression height = 31.65mm
(Distance from the center of the piston pin to the top piston deck)

Standard Stroke = 81mm

New Stroke = 88mm

Using this data you can do some math and see if the pistons you're looking at will be suitable for your needs, and you can see how different rod lenths will affect your options.

To see how far the piston is from the block deck height:
Position = (Stroke/2) - rod length - compression height
|
212.15mm = (81mm/2) + 140mm + 31.65mm

This means that on the standard M42 the piston at TDC protrudes 0.15mm above the block deck.

Desired Compression height = Block height - (Stroke/2) - rod length
|
28mm = 212mm - (88mm/2) - 140mm (provided you want the block deck to be flush with the piston)

This tells you that your target compression height is 28mm

All though you might be able to find some pistons that fit this metric, how about your compression ratio??, how about valve pockets?? I looked for a long time for some cheap stock piston, but ended up with some custom ones from JE-Pistons. I think you should seriously consider some custom to, and retain the long 140mm rod.

I hope this helps you,.. Actually on Mahles website you can find piston data.

[stuartgallafant]

i was thinking of going custom pistons and remain using the 140mm rods. so if i have the M47 crank, i just get the machinist to make the woodruff key to fit on it, and all will be fine?

also, i think i have found a company that will produce some fast road cams for me. should i buy the cams, fit the crank, and then get the pstons made to suit the rest of the spec of the engine?

i will start my own thread soon, once i've got everything i need!!

thank you for your help

[D. Clay]

Just reread this thread. As a newbie to the internals and displacement increase options of the M42, it contains the answers to a lot of questions regarding bore and stroke options, parts, etc. Maybe we could "Sticky" this as a reference or perhaps some of the engine folks could summarize the info and "Sticky" that. I love the pics of things such as the crank modification.

[nobrakese36]

Finally got around to taking some images of the Dbilas individual throttle body setup.

They are 45mm in diameter.

Do those hoses connect to the idle control valve?

[sumyungguy]

Carrillo makes some good rods, you may want to look into them

Carrillo (http://www.carrilloind.com/)

Theres no listing on their site but they only make rods and that says a lot. My shop also had a 700 hp 4cyl forced induction honda motor with their rods, if that counts for anything.

[cecotto]

Do those hoses connect to the idle control valve?

Yes the big hoses with the T-connector is for the idle control valve. Theres a bore between the tow bodies which gives the supplied air passage to all the cylinders..

The small one is just a hack way of plugging the vacuum measureing nipples, instead of using the intended plugs.

[cecotto]

With empty pockets it's hard to do real progress, but it feels good when you're able to do a little anyway.

I've had the block standing in a corner for months now, and the bearings in a small box beside it. Also i bought some plastiguage a while back. So i pretty much have what it takes to measure the main bearings out. So this is what i've been doing this evening.

For those unaware of what plastiguage is, here's a small explanation.. It's a thin presission extruded plastic strip which you place on the bearing to be measured. Then you put the bearing cap on top of it and torque it to spec. Then you remove the bearing cap again. Now the plastic guage has been crushed. If the clearance is large the plastiguage will be a thin line. But if the clearance is tight it will be a wide line.

The main bearing radial clearance tolerences on the M42 is: 0.02mm - 0.058mm

My clearances turned out to be supringsingly even: ~0.038mm, which i think will be fine fo my engine. I guess it will allow for better oil flow than the minimum clearance. (I won't stop my habbit of looking to the S42 for what's specified for that: 0.04mm - 0.05mm)

For those thinking i'm lucky it turned out good.. We're able to infulence the results with a little work before ordering the bearings. They are available in different color codes, and each color is assosiated with a specified crank-bearing diameter. So once the crank is measured out. You just have to select the bearings to match from a table. (available here: http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1985)

[jpod999]

I have been thinking of buying and M42 block and building it up. I love my car and the engine, but it would be nice having a bit more power. I rode in a friends M20 E30 car that was stroked and bored and really liked it. Makes me want to do the same type thing to an M42.

[cecotto]

I came to think about the fact the bearings on BMW's modern engines(~M40 --> M54) are pretty much the same.

So i ordered the lower guidebearing for a M50, to see if it fit the the M42 engine. for a full 360-degree

guide bearing. As some of you might be aware metric mechanic offeres this with special machining on the

bearing caps. Which in their case also includes a 360-degree oil-groove on the bearings.


So for those interested, here's the partnumbers:
-----------------------------------------------
11.21.2.241.934 Lower "retrofit" guidebearing -Yellow- (STD)
11.21.2.241.935 Lower "retrofit" guidebearing -Green- (STD)
11.21.2.241.936 Lower "retrofit" guidebearing -white- (STD)

I'll post an image later..

[MarkD]

Otto,

why do you want to use Haltech instaed of the Motronic? You can easily control the motor with the stock ecu and save a lot of money and wiring headaches.

If you send me logs from an Innovate LM-1, I can tune it.

MarkD

[cecotto]

Hi Mark.

I want to get rid of the airflow meter, as this is restrictive.

I've got a guy who can tune it on a dyno, I dont think it's a good idea to tune a car like you suggest. But thanks.

I'm looking at other ECU than the Haltach now, so we'll se how it goes

Otto,

why do you want to use Haltech instaed of the Motronic? You can easily control the motor with the stock ecu and save a lot of money and wiring headaches.

If you send me logs from an Innovate LM-1, I can tune it.

MarkD

[fiskerendk]

Hi Otto,

First of all very NICE NICE NICE project.

I talked to Henrik yesterday, asking him about motorsport parts for a M42/M44/S42 engine. And he told me that if it wasent for you then there world be nothing for S42.

However i have the last time searched some information for the M42/M44/S42 engine. Im almost finished my M20B27 project. And its far from a normal 2.7 liter engine :D ( http://www.bilgalleri.dk/html/alb_vis.asp?AlbumID=1730 )

But back to the case im speculate in building a S42 engine (sort of) in the future for a E36. But i need some more knowlegde of this kind of engine.
I would hear if you got some material catalogs from BMW Motorsport on this type of engine? i thinking of using the M44 engine block due to bigger standard bore and that it contains oil nossles under each piston over the M42 engine block.

I want to build the engine using a 85mm crankshaft (Motorsport, 4 counters) However the problem is that BMW motorsport informed me that the motorsport crankshaft only is 55mm at main bearings where the M42 is 60mm. Any solution to this?

BMW supplied me with some parts numbers however i dont know what this is can you tell? 1416576 disc for mean Bearing (axial clearance) 4x.
Does that have something to do with the smaller axial ?

I thinking of building the engine using some custom pistons from kempower, 86,5mm bore and 12:1 in compression with 145mm conrods?

The head i read some place that i can use S50 solid lifters in a M42 head and using shims under then, is that correct? Dbilas also supllies Mechanical bucket tappets is that a direct replacement for hydro tappets or does something need to be changed? I also looked at the Metrics Mechanic lifters but are they good enough for a 8500 engine using 292 degree camshaft?

The head will come from a M42 engine for use of the 6mm valves. however some bigger valves are properly going to be used. But for a start maybe. I think i will consentrate on the bottom end as the first.

Maybe you know some more about the S42 differenses from M42 engine that i need to take into account before starting this project. However the M20 engine needs to be finish at first :D

Best Regards
Thomas Nissen

[Alpine003]

I
I've got a guy who can tune it on a dyno, I dont think it's a good idea to tune a car like you suggest. But thanks.


Unless you have a Dynapack or Dynojet 246 w/optional inertial dampening, dyno's are only good for measuring and doing wot tuning sessions. Part throttle tuning is always better to do on the street in real world conditions. Good tuners will generally do both dyno and tweak on the streets afterwards.

Using wideband logs to generate a map can be useful, especially in the area "under the curve" and part throttle. Of course you will always want to fine tune it and tweak it afterwards.

[cecotto]

Hi Thomas.

I'll do this in english, for the benefit og the other users.


First of all very NICE NICE NICE project.


Thanks a lot.

I talked to Henrik yesterday, asking him about motorsport parts for a M42/M44/S42 engine. And he told me that if it wasent for you then there world be nothing for S42.

I think what Henrik ment was that if it wasent for me, he would not be aware of the existance of the S42. (Just to clear any misunderstandings)

However i have the last time searched some information for the M42/M44/S42 engine. Im almost finished my M20B27 project. And its far from a normal 2.7 liter engine :D ( http://www.bilgalleri.dk/html/alb_vis.asp?AlbumID=1730 )

Nice M20 project you're doing there.

But back to the case im speculate in building a S42 engine (sort of) in the future for a E36. But i need some more knowlegde of this kind of engine.
I would hear if you got some material catalogs from BMW Motorsport on this type of engine? i thinking of using the M44 engine block due to bigger standard bore and that it contains oil nossles under each piston over the M42 engine block.

I do have some motorsport catalogs, partnumbers, technical information etc. on the S42 (1995 version, as i remember). In fact this version features the same under piston oil squirters as the series M42 (present on all M42, not just the M44)

I want to build the engine using a 85mm crankshaft (Motorsport, 4 counters) However the problem is that BMW motorsport informed me that the motorsport crankshaft only is 55mm at main bearings where the M42 is 60mm. Any solution to this?

That crank will cost you around 3-4000 euroes!!

As im in Las Vegas until the 20-june, i cant look up the S42 crank diameters. But as i remember the mains are the same. But the rod bearings are of a larger diameter.

BMW supplied me with some parts numbers however i dont know what this is can you tell? 1416576 disc for mean Bearing (axial clearance) 4x.
Does that have something to do with the smaller axial ?

I havent looked it up, but sounds like the part in question are the axial play bearings, which are seperate units from the radial bearings. On the M42 the axial bearing and radial bearing are a single unit.

I thinking of building the engine using some custom pistons from kempower, 86,5mm bore and 12:1 in compression with 145mm conrods?

Kempower are known for doing good work. And the specs sounds good to me, well sounds like S42 specs. I cant argue with that. But it might be only 2 ring pistons. Not suitable for the street... But before ordering i would plan the build in more detail, sounds like it will be pretty expensive.

The head i read some place that i can use S50 solid lifters in a M42 head and using shims under then, is that correct? Dbilas also supllies Mechanical bucket tappets is that a direct replacement for hydro tappets or does something need to be changed? I also looked at the Metrics Mechanic lifters but are they good enough for a 8500 engine using 292 degree camshaft?

I would go with the lifters the camgrinder supplies, this is what i did.

The head will come from a M42 engine for use of the 6mm valves. however some bigger valves are properly going to be used. But for a start maybe. I think i will consentrate on the bottom end as the first.

I've got a 6mm head in a corner for future development, i need to finish the engine as planned with the 7mm or else this will keep dragging on and on.

Maybe you know some more about the S42 differenses from M42 engine that i need to take into account before starting this project. However the M20 engine needs to be finish at first :D

I do have some pretty good information, some of which is shared in this thread.

But my best advice to you would not be to build a S42 (Too expensive)

But rather do something like i'm doing, not just copy my spec. But upgrade the the obvious performance parts to a spec thats suitable for where you're heading. Theres a large selection available. Catcams can grind you custom cams to your requirement. and rods are also available form a lot of sources. Pistons are also available from many sources. and can be made to fit a longer rod.

Best Regards
Thomas Nissen[/QUOTE]

[cecotto]

Unless you have a Dynapack or Dynojet 246 w/optional inertial dampening, dyno's are only good for measuring and doing wot tuning sessions. Part throttle tuning is always better to do on the street in real world conditions. Good tuners will generally do both dyno and tweak on the streets afterwards.

Using wideband logs to generate a map can be useful, especially in the area "under the curve" and part throttle. Of course you will always want to fine tune it and tweak it afterwards.

Hmm..

The tuning will be made on a inertial roller dyno with a brake attached. I think it will be okay for me. And of cource it will be using a exhaust gas monitoring system.

Last year i visited Alpina, where we were showed their engine dyno room. The engine they were working on were pretty wired up. And i'm sure they would find the DynoJet you mention useless for their purposes. It takes months for them to get it right.

I guess what i'm saying is that you have to decide whats good enough for you, and go with that.
* I would not rely entirely on a street tune, allthough i guess that could be done with good results.
*An engine dyno is not an option for my budget, and i wouldent know where to go.
* I know a guy who has tunes hundreds of cars on his inertial dyno with brake, successfully.

And theres always going to be a better option.

But thanks for your input, i value that.

[Alpine003]

Hmm..

The tuning will be made on a inertial roller dyno with a brake attached. I think it will be okay for me. And of cource it will be using a exhaust gas monitoring system.


This is basically a dynapack that i mentioned previously so we are saying the same thing.
As for Alpina, you can't compare engine dyno to regular dyno's. Not apples to apples comparison. I wouldn't say Dynojet's would be useless but they just have the resources to go a different route when it comes to tuning that lot of consumers don't have access to.

[fiskerendk]

However i properly want to spend about 100.000 DKK as i already did with my M20 engine. So thats almost the price tag. Im not going to take the cheapest way if another is better. However i thinked about the S42 crank becouse of the 85mm and not to worry about high rpms.
But again it should be posible to get a high rev 88mm stroke engine. And then just use 86mm pistons.

Then maybe just go for the:

Block:
M42/M44 Block
M47 Crank 88mm Stroke
Custom Con.Rods
Custom 12:1 Pistons
Main Bearings with 360 degree oiling grooves
Rod Bearings

Head:
Ported and Flowtested by Poul Heikendorf again :D
Custom 6mm valves +1mm oversize
Mechanical Lifters
Upgraded springs and retainers
292 degrees cams or simular

Does this sound like a good choises then?
Im only at the early stages and comparing some different posibilities.

[fiskerendk]

However what about the Harmonic Balancer (at the front of the engine) Heard bad things about that with high revs.

[nickmpower]

you dont need 360 degree bearings with the m47 crank

[cecotto]

However i properly want to spend about 100.000 DKK as i already did with my M20 engine. So thats almost the price tag. Im not going to take the cheapest way if another is better. However i thinked about the S42 crank becouse of the 85mm and not to worry about high rpms.
But again it should be posible to get a high rev 88mm stroke engine. And then just use 86mm pistons.

Then maybe just go for the:

Block:
M42/M44 Block
M47 Crank 88mm Stroke
Custom Con.Rods
Custom 12:1 Pistons
Main Bearings with 360 degree oiling grooves
Rod Bearings

Head:
Ported and Flowtested by Poul Heikendorf again :D
Custom 6mm valves +1mm oversize
Mechanical Lifters
Upgraded springs and retainers
292 degrees cams or simular

Does this sound like a good choises then?
Im only at the early stages and comparing some different posibilities.

Sounds very good to me.

About the vibration damper, i've read that too. But i have yet to see any posts anywhere with somebody who experienced this. I think it's just some remark by someone that being retold again and again. And this way become a fact. However i dont know my self, I just dont have the habbit of taking internet chatter too serious.

I will bring a spare with me to start with though :-)

BTW. The S42 crank doesn't use a damper. It's just got a very tiny pulley, and four impulse arms for the ECU. I think about 150-grams would be the max weight of it.

BTW-BTW. I think Nick is right about the 360-degree oil groove, the main bearings on the M47 crank is bored straight through. So theres always a oil inlet to the rod bearing at the groove.

[Febi Guibo]

However what about the Harmonic Balancer (at the front of the engine) Heard bad things about that with high revs.

my stock balancer is fine up to 7800 rpms...

there is a post here from a very nice guy, Don Duncan
http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316

it sounds like you are building a monster engine... check out his site for some info:

http://www.gttechnic.com/catalog.html

[fiskerendk]

And ofcouse throutle bodies and a Wolf3d engine management are goint to be used. So the intake should be ok for high revs.

Do you think the pulley for the S42 will fit into the crank?
Couse im hoping on a 8000-8500rpm or so.

Febi > Yeah i been around that page for some times. And its very nice engines they made. 260hp from a 1.8L with carbs damn.

What is your 7800 rpm engine outputting? And what are the specs?

[cecotto]

Okay finally my rods has arrived, here is some images.

The total weight of a stock rod including bolts = 620g
The total weight of a new rod including bolts = 506g
--------------------------------------------------
Total difference = 114g pr. rod

[pungky29]

Sorry, I'm too late in joining this thread
Just an idea, why don't you use the M47N (M47TU) crankshaft?
It has 90mm stroke compare to M47 which has 88mm stroke, both crank has similar design
By using existing piston and 135mm rod (M42, M43 & M44 has 140mm), you'll get 1995cc and 1.5 conrod ratio
You can also use 86mm diameter S50 B30 Euro M3 piston and you'll end up with 2091cc

[cecotto]

Sorry, I'm too late in joining this thread
Just an idea, why don't you use the M47N (M47TU) crankshaft?
It has 90mm stroke compare to M47 which has 88mm stroke, both crank has similar design
By using existing piston and 135mm rod (M42, M43 & M44 has 140mm), you'll get 1995cc and 1.5 conrod ratio
You can also use 86mm diameter S50 B30 Euro M3 piston and you'll end up with 2091cc

You're right, this would be possible.

This configuration:
* M47N 90mm crank
* 135mm Rods
* Standard pistons.

Would have the piston sit 0.36mm below the cylinder deck.
This is not good for your squish effect. The stock M42 has
the piston protrude 0.15mm above the cylinder deck

Also you have 9mm more stroke with the standard piston,
and combustion chamber, which compresion ratio (CR) do you
think this would yield ? Well you could probberly machine
the pistons to lower the CR. But this would weaken the piston
crown, and i would think that as theres a lot of material removal
thermal problems might arise. As the "heat sink" capabilities would
not be as good with less material. I would not be comfortable with
this during sustainéd high load. Well these prblems with the piston
might just be in my head. But then again they might not.

About the crank, sure it could be made to fit. As the M47 it
needs some machining. But the shank is not the length it needs
to be so this would have to be lenghtend. So the shank would
end up being a two piece design. I dont like that. Try and look
at the images in Metric Mechanics M42 booklet. You'll see what
i mean there.

All in all i think the M47 crank, 140mm rods, custom pistons are
the best way to go. Simple crank modification, together with
good rod ratio. And with custom pistons you will have the luxury
of being able to select your CR.

Sorry if i come off as being defensive, i'm just explaining the pro's and con's.
as I see them..