M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Suspension => Topic started by: roundel318 on August 10, 2009, 09:03:35 PM
-
I have a 91 318i that is lowered 1.5" up front and 1.0" in the back (Eibach Pro Kit w/ Bilstein Sport dampers) and am progressing with some camber correction hardware.
I know what I want in the back, and will be saving that for later.
In the front, I am considering the factory offset upper strut bushing, but it only corrects .5 degrees, and my alignment sheet shows -2.0 (factory specs -1.2 to -0.2.)
This would on paper bring it to -1.5, which is a touch out of the low end of factory spec.
Also, is the factory spec listed of -1.2 to -0.2 (front camber) correct? I presume BMW dials in a bit of negative camber, even seeing X5's with sport packages shows?
The other would be a camber plate to install instead of the rubber, I want to avoid polyeurothane in best effort to preserve ride quality, so I really hesitate on a KMAC or other poly based adjustable plate.
My inner tire wear is moderate, but not overly horrid by any means, and are 205x50x16's all around.
I want to figure this out within a week, but cannot decide.
INPUT??
-
Have you considered IE fixed camber plates?
FWIW, KMAC camber plates are widely regarded as pure trash. I'd get the IE fixed plates or step up to some sweetass camber plates (vorshlag).
-
I presume the solid plates will not preserve ride quality?
Are there any other poly based plates that are not "pure trash"???
Thanks for the input!
-
They're just offset brackets, really. They use the stock strut hats, so there shouldn't be any change in ride quality, but I personally haven't used them.
(https://store.nexternal.com/ireland/images/FixedCamberE30.jpg)
-
Do those plates give positive camber? I just checked IE's site and the only ones I could find were for increasing negative camber (presumably for stock suspension).
And does anyone have experience with/suggestions for rear camber correction kits?
-
You don't want positive camber. You can use them on stock or lowered suspensions.
-
i first replaced my strut bushings with OEM parts. after 10k miles i replaced the stock rubber with vorshlag camber plates. there was no noticeable difference in either the ride or the noise. this was my e30 m3 and maybe the ride quality is less than that of the e30 318is.
-
i first replaced my strut bushings with OEM parts. after 10k miles i replaced the stock rubber with vorshlag camber plates. there was no noticeable difference in either the ride or the noise. this was my e30 m3 and maybe the ride quality is less than that of the e30 318is.
While there def would be a ride quality diff in a stock M3 and 318i, the 318 has been lowered considerably, and would probably be not too much stiffer than a stock M3.
If your vorshlag plates didn't make much of a diff, that doesn't sound too bad.
Will have to consider that.
THX!
-
Do those plates give positive camber? I just checked IE's site and the only ones I could find were for increasing negative camber (presumably for stock suspension).
And does anyone have experience with/suggestions for rear camber correction kits?
For rear, there are some offset bushing kits, but I hear they are not ideal, and a dual camber / toe kit of adjustable tabs would be best.
Dinan even makes them, along with some others, however this requires dropping the rear subframe as I understand, so the labor for the back is significant.
-
I just checked Vorshlag's site and they buddie'd up with Eibach to make a E30 camber tuning kit for the Eibach Pro-Kit springs.
http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_17_159&products_id=402
I am going to call to find out exactly what they are selling.
-
@ ulysses: I know I don't want positive camber. But for where I'm at (about -2.5) I need to go in the positive direction.
roundel, that vorshlag kit looks like it would do the trick nicely. let us know what you find out.
-
To reduce your negative camber you need to buy Ground Control plate and flip them. Passenger on driver and driver on passenger. I had to grind a portion of the bottom half of the plate but I believe you won't have to with the new version. I am almost positive you cannot flip the Vorshag plate and it will barely reduce any negative camber.
-
To reduce your negative camber you need to buy Ground Control plate and flip them. Passenger on driver and driver on passenger. I had to grind a portion of the bottom half of the plate but I believe you won't have to with the new version. I am almost positive you cannot flip the Vorshag plate and it will barely reduce any negative camber.
The Vorshlag product's I am referring to are the Eibach camber hardware they developed with Eibach, not the E30 Vorshlag plates.
I was going to ask them how much their normal plates can remove.
The Eibach ones they made list "Front -1.0 / +3.0 degrees of adjustment."
I figure since two negatives make a positive (removing negative camber would equal adding camber) it would address up to 3 degrees?
-
I don't see how that Eibach kit would even work for the front suspension, unless the photos are incorrect. There's no way to adjust camber for the front suspension without moving the strut top.
Furthermore, I don't see how those parts would incorporate into the rear suspension.
I wonder if it's just a expensive eccentric bolt and weld-in plate setup for the rear suspension.
-
I don't see how that Eibach kit would even work for the front suspension, unless the photos are incorrect. There's no way to adjust camber for the front suspension without moving the strut top.
Furthermore, I don't see how those parts would incorporate into the rear suspension.
I wonder if it's just a expensive eccentric bolt and weld-in plate setup for the rear suspension.
I figured it was a canned photo and called Vorshlag and indeed it is.
They have plates they designed for Eibach's kits, they say they should not impact ride quality and should be quiet too and not rattle, etc.
They are for the front only, as the back is a totally diff issue.
Steer over to the Eibach site for something that resembles what it probably looks like.
http://eibach.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/01408.2.4693668935200015571
-
UPDATE
I got the vorshlag/eibach camber plate kit installed and it's stellar!
Alignment is back to stock front camber, so tire wear should be more balanced.
Plus the driving dynamics are really great, back to how it should be.
The car tends to wander less at high speeds.
The mount is polyeurothane and appears to have had pretty much no effect on ride quality (not sure if it would, I was mildly concerned)
I was uncertain if there would be a ride height change, and I really don't see much of anything there either, it all looks alright.
Mind the dirty car.....
Cheers!
(http://www.kingofpdx.com/DSC00001.JPG)
(http://www.kingofpdx.com/DSC00002.JPG)
-
Looks good, man. I'll have to grab some of these once i get some of my more major problems smoothed over.
What do you have in mind for the rear?
-
Not really sure, I was thinking the offset trailing arm bushing (I think there is a rubber one somewhere?) or the adjustable tabs (serious install) but I need to think it over after I see the tire wear, it's .6 degrees out of spec, so it could be worse.
-
So for 360 dollars + s/h, the eibach kit basically entails a set of camber plates and nothing else?
-
Tirerack sells the kit for 278 plus shipping, yes it's just a set of adjustable plates, they have poly mounts.
I am pleased so far with mine, and I am a bit fussy about ride quality.
The Eibach website has a true picture of the kit, their link I had above doesn't work on account of their dumb site.
-
Ground Control camber plates ftw. vorshlag is overpriced, under-engineered copy anyway. But i guess there are those people who want a german sounding part to go with their german car.
-
Ground Control camber plates ftw. vorshlag is overpriced, under-engineered copy anyway. But i guess there are those people who want a german sounding part to go with their german car.
Vorshlag's (not the Eibachs that Vorshlag sells) plates are far superior to GC's.
-
Vorshlag's (not the Eibachs that Vorshlag sells) plates are far superior to GC's.
Many people disagree with you, with factual reasons to disagree.
Watch these videos.
http://www.camberplate.com/test/GCFinalCPIIa.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zN9ClW8Xs8
DSP699/DSP74
-
Strange that they do not show how much pressure was applied. It could be that you get such load only under press and not in real life. Mine looks like this http://www.greitiems.lt/gamyba.php and they was raced and did not had any failure. Bearings are preloaded and made for racing purpose. It could be simulated by FEA, but of cause it depends what materials was used during production.
-
Many people disagree with you, with factual reasons to disagree.
Watch these videos.
http://www.camberplate.com/test/GCFinalCPIIa.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zN9ClW8Xs8
DSP699/DSP74
Yet I cannot find any real world examples of the plates breaking as shown. In fact the only result of searching for camber plate failures on bf.c track subforum are a set of GC plates where the bearing broke on a race car.
How much force is being applied and why isn't it shown?
-
How much force is being applied and why isn't it shown?
Dont ask me. All I can see is one broke and the other didnt. I dont have to worry about how much weight broke it, because I dont already own the one that broke.
Your searches must have ended up differently than mine, maybe you hang out at bimmerforums which I just dont like. here are other links that I used in my decision. YMMV
http://r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=117787
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?p=955508#post955508
DSP788/ DSP74
-
Dont ask me.
You're so informed. Thank you for spouting off about things you know nothing about! :cool:
-
Dont ask me. All I can see is one broke and the other didnt. I dont have to worry about how much weight broke it, because I dont already own the one that broke.
The entire point of my comment is that if we don't know how much force is applied, we don't know if the break/yield point of the bearing is within the normal bounds of what a suspension would experience (discounting crashes).
Who cares if Vorshlag's bearing broke if the loads applied were 2, 3 or 10 times what would ever be subjected to the vehicle during daily driving or tracking?
Just because something is overengineered doesn't mean it is a superior product.
Your searches must have ended up differently than mine, maybe you hang out at bimmerforums which I just dont like. here are other links that I used in my decision. YMMV
Ok, doesn't change the fact that neither of these links describe any more detail about the failure of the camber plate.
Furthermore, after reading your trainwreck of a thread on r3v (http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=122358) I'll just leave you to your own strange conclusions.
-
I never saw or hear ever broken camber plate. More often it is shock absorbers, wishbones after impact, but not in normal race or rally conditions.
-
Who cares if Vorshlag's bearing broke if the loads applied were 2, 3 or 10 times what would ever be subjected to the vehicle during daily driving or tracking?
Well, if as you say, we (you and I) dont know the bearing load, how do you know its not "HALF of what would ever be subjected to the vehicle during daily driving or tracking?", and yours just hasn't broken yet?
Your research consisted of "I cannot find any real world examples of the plates breaking as shown".
That is not good enough for me, and I shared my reasons why with you. You responded by attacking the messenger (me) and digging up posts from another forum about a completely different subject. Straight out the Chicago Politics playbook, to discredit any opposing views, because you can't support your claim.
I think you should edit your previous post to say: "Vorshlag's (not the Eibachs that Vorshlag sells) plates are far superior to GC's unless you press on them, or try to adjust them or measure stack height"
Ground Control camber plates ftw. vorshlag is overpriced, under-engineered copy anyway. But i guess there are those people who want a german sounding part to go with their german car.
+1
DSP74
-
Well, if as you say, we (you and I) dont know the bearing load, how do you know its not "HALF of what would ever be subjected to the vehicle during daily driving or tracking?", and yours just hasn't broken yet?
I don't own either set of camber plates. I have no dog in this hunt.
Your research consisted of "I cannot find any real world examples of the plates breaking as shown".
Surely if the bearings break at half the loads they would be subjected to during driving/tracking, there would be numerous accounts of it all over the net--yet there are NONE.
That is not good enough for me, and I shared my reasons why with you. You responded by attacking the messenger (me) and digging up posts from another forum about a completely different subject. Straight out the Chicago Politics playbook, to discredit any opposing views, because you can't support your claim.
You specifically registered on this forum to post in this thread. Odd.
I attacked your links because they are irrelevant to the discussion that Vorshlag's camber plates are inadequate. You can't claim that I am not supporting my claim when your initial claim (posting the video as evidence) doesn't hold much weight, as it lacks measurable data.
I think you should edit your previous post to say: "Vorshlag's (not the Eibachs that Vorshlag sells) plates are far superior to GC's unless you press on them, or try to adjust them or measure stack height"
+1
DSP74
(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3979/supercoolstorybroh.png) (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/supercoolstorybroh.png/)
-
from the small amount of information that I can gleem about the various camber plates being discussed here (read 'what materials are used where') the real difference appears to be that the Vorshlag's plates 'may' be engineered for the street while the GC plates are focussed on a track/race setup.
It appears that roundel is happy with the purchase/fit/install/ride/performance so...what's the deal otherwise?
I've seen a pretty wide variety of camber plate setups from really pretty (IMHO GC's & IE's) to completely fugly (yeah, that would be mine...home made) but each of them have done exactly what the owner wants.
so what's the point of my post? Ummm, well, yeah, about that...I seem to have lost it somewhere along the way...
-
Been lurking for weeks, decided to toss an opinion...
The dual unit test in the pic is completely invalid.
There fixture design has no chance of equal loading of the parts,
and due to the designs of the units as soon as the force went up
one was bound to compress just slightly more than the other and
from then on its failure city.
If they had used a symetric fixture and done one at a time on a
Saytac stress machine I'd give it way more credibility.
I worked in a testing lab for a time on this type of mechanical failure
and they have way over simplified the problem. The fact is GC makes
a good product, and the Vorshlag plates I've installed looked more than
adequate to do the job.
In 15 years of racing everything with a motor camber plate failure has
not been a prime issue for me... :)
Dave
-
The dual unit test in the pic is completely invalid.
Agree with you, I was watching the video, and didn't see until later when they removed the items from the press that they were just squeezing the two until something popped.
In a real world application this doesn't tell you squat. It looks impressive though. Lots of products are sold on videos like that. Watch as our knife cuts this hammer!
Who cares if a knife will cut a hammer, its not a valid test. Professional chefs don't use knifes that can cut into hammers.
-
Update on that thread, as Vorshlag responds to GC's video:
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=108541&page=4