M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: phrekus on July 08, 2009, 09:09:48 PM
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Well I just did the "mess under the intake" modification to my car and filled the coolant back up following the instructions below. Problem is that I left the car running for several minutes and only steam came out of the bleeder screw and the temps got to 3/4. What could cause this? Any suggestions would be great.
"Bleeding the coolant system
Time = 10 minutes Task=Easy
The engine and radiator are well designed to pretty much self bleed so this is not too difficult.
* Remove the radiator cap.
* Pour in a water/antifreeze solution (as required in your area) so that it reaches the level mark on the radiator.
* Turn the interior heater/air con to full heat and turn the fan to its 1st position.
* Start the engine.
* Continue to slowly add coolant until it is ~2"/50mm above the level mark on the radiator. Keep the level there while the engine idles.
* After about 5 minutes the top radiator hose should be getting hot as the thermostat opens. Once this is warm, loosen the bleed screw slightly until some air or coolant comes slowly out (~3-4 turns).
* Bring the revs up a little and watch the bleed screw. As soon as pure coolant with no bubbles is coming out, tighten the screw with the revs still raised.
* Check the coolant level and replace the radiator cap.
* With fresh water, wash down the area around the front and side of the radiator to remove any antifreeze which may have come in contact with the paintwork.
* After ~1-2 hours of use, release the bleed screw again, bring up the revs, check for bubbles coming out and check the coolant level again.
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I'll bet it's not bled, or the pump is air-locked. Can you bleed the car on a hill? That helped me the last time. The car isn't that easy to bleed in my experience...I tried three times before it was OK...last time facing up a hill...now I'm pretty sure it's right.
Another member filled the top hose, then the radiator, then did the bleeding. I'll try that next time.
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I will jack the front up once I get home. While trying last night the top hose was too hot to touch and I couldn't tell if the coolant was circulating or not.
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Also make sure that in between bleeds, that the engine is cold or close to it.
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I'd open the bleeder screw slightly while the engine is cold, and then loosen it further as the car warms up. I'd also have a spare around as the stock part is plastic and can break on you.
If you haven't used your heater in a while, rotate the temp selector knob a few times to make sure the heater core is being opened. While I run my AC through the middle vent, I close that and have the floor vent opened full.
Put your blower switch on a higher setting and ensure you are getting *hot* air coming at you. That's a hint the heater core has coolant flowing in it.
I recently replaced my radiator. I noticed the level of coolant in the reservoir tank dropping as I was running the engine, so keep replenishing coolant during the bleed process. I look for a "four-pack" of hot heater air, no air bubbles from the bleeder screw, coolant levels not dropping quickly in the reservoir tank, and the temperature gauge in its customary spot as clues my bleed job is going well.
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Well I tried everything you guys suggested and the thermostat has to be broken. I sat in the car with the front jacked up and the heater never bled hot. I went to autozone and bought a new thermostat but I had to order the gasket and o-ring from napa. Anything else you guys suggest would be great.
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My heater does not work, not really needed here in S. FL. This it probably the heater valve. If it is broken, it will stay closed and hot coolant will not go into the heater core. You can also test the thermostate in a pan of boiling water. It should open up with ease.
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I will try that test tonight.
I figured that I am going to end up taking the thermostat off so I might as well get a new one. Before I did the mess under the intake modification the thermostat was working correctly and the car would never go above half way on the temp gauge. Now that I have it all back together it is overheating and not bleeding while I have the front of the car jacked up and I get no heat from the vents inside the car. Now would the heater valve prevent the car from circulating coolant or is it just for having heat in the car (useless in Florida). I even tried to pull the top hose from the radiator and poured some coolant directly into it and tried to bleed it again with but I got the same result of no heat coming from the vents and the cars temps rising while the top hose of the radiator is too hot to hold. Hopefully I can find this gasket for the thermostat housing local or maybe the one I currently have is in decent shape. Any suggestions would be great on trying to get an o-ring and thermostat gasket local or any other options I might have (liquid gasket or using the old one if it is in decent shape). My buddy also suggested running the car without the thermostat just to make sure the system is circulating. Once again thank you for all the help.
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Heater valve is just for heat in car. Coolant circulating thru engine will still happen just fine.
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Well I just tested the old thermostat next to a new one by boiling them and the old one opens wider and stays open at a lower temp. I did notice that one of the bolts holding the housing was missing. So at this point the symptoms are that the engine starts to overheat (doesn't look like coolant is circulating) but it appears that the thermostat opens when tested. I know people have mentioned air locks several times, what should I do to find and resolve that? Also, how do I test if the water pump is functional?
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Sorry to bump this so soon but I was just wondering how I can troubleshoot this issue further. It looked like my thermostat was fine but I havn't put the new one in yet because I am waiting for the gasket and o-ring to arrive. Does anyone know of a way to troubleshoot this further? How can I test the water pump?
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I would start troubleshooting each section. Everything was fine before you cleaned the intake mess? If so, first make sure water is circulation. The water pump can be a pain to remove. If you remove the belt spin the pulley, does it move freely?
Regarding the bleeding process. Are you still getting steam from the bleeder screw? You would have to make sure the radiator is not screwed up. One thing I have done is loosen radiator plug and then add water all the time with a hose at the top of the radiator tank to flush all coolant out. As long as the thermostat opens, you should get hot water at the top hop.
Just in case, make sure you are not loosing coolant into the oil pan. Profile gasket has a defect if it has not been replaced in a long time.
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Turn the temp to hot (fan off though), crack the bleeder valve and give it some good revs. Get the water pump reay going and it's likely you will elimi ate your airlock.
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I would start troubleshooting each section. Everything was fine before you cleaned the intake mess? If so, first make sure water is circulation. The water pump can be a pain to remove. If you remove the belt spin the pulley, does it move freely?
Regarding the bleeding process. Are you still getting steam from the bleeder screw? You would have to make sure the radiator is not screwed up. One thing I have done is loosen radiator plug and then add water all the time with a hose at the top of the radiator tank to flush all coolant out. As long as the thermostat opens, you should get hot water at the top hop.
Just in case, make sure you are not loosing coolant into the oil pan. Profile gasket has a defect if it has not been replaced in a long time.
The car did not overheat before I did the hose mod.
I will remove the belt tonight and try to spin it.
Right now I have the radiator out (previous owner barely mounted it) but when I last tried all I got was steam coming from the bleeder screw till it almost overheated which is when I shut it off.
I should have the gasket for the thermostat housing soon. Before I put it all back together any other tests you guys can think of while I have the radiator out?
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If you can have the radiator tested and flushed, might be a good time. But of course it will cost for that. You can try to flush it your self. Also try running water thru it to make sure it is flowing ok.
I know the mess under the intake does have coolant passing thru. Did you remove those or just replaced all the hoses?
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The radiator was replaced recently when I purchased the car (by someone too lazy to mount it correctly) but I was thinking about running water through it just to rule it out. I did cap off the coolant bypass during the mess under the intake mod.
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Maybe the bypass has a blockage in the incorrect place. I havent done this yet to my car.
I guess one thing at a time. Also how is your fan clutch, even though this should be looked at later and has nothing to do with coolant flow.
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Well I put everything back together without the thermostat to try to narrow things down and I got the same results (car temp goes up and steam only comes out of the bleeder valve till the car gets so hot that I have to turn it off, all while no heat comes out of the air vents). I tried pushing torn cardboard into the fan and I was able to stop it from spinning. I would assume that means the fan clutch is gone but I was wondering if a bad sensor could cause the fan clutch not to engage while causing the circulation issue. The thermostat gasket housing and o-ring won't be in till thursday so I had to use the old ones to test with. I was also thinking that air could be getting in through the old gasket of the thermostat housing preventing circulation.
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Well I just placed another order with Pelican for the items below and had them ship it overnight. I already have the new thermostat plus the gasket and o-ring for it will be arriving tomorrow along with everything else.
11-14-1-439-570-M104 Kit PEL-WPSKE30-02N: Crankshaft Seal
11-23-1-469-235-M21 Kit PEL-WPSKE30-02N: Belt, Alternator
11-51-0-393-338-M59 Water Pump and Gasket
11-52-1-466-000-M38 Kit PEL-WPSKE30-02N: Fan Clutch
12-62-1-710-512-M323 Temperature Sending Unit (for temp gauge)
13-62-1-709-966-M323 Temperature Sensor, 2-prong, 20 Degrees Cel
17-11-1-178-412-M200 Kit PEL-WPSKE30-02N: Rubber Insulator for Lower Radiator Mount
17-11-1-712-788-M230 Bleeder Screw for Expansion Tank (Brass, includes one O-Ring)
61-31-1-378-073-M85 Temperature Switch in Radiator
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cool and good luck.
Just to let you know, I started a small parts company and can get most maintenance parts cheaper than Pelican and I get them local, so from Miami to St. Petersburg, should only take 2 days from date of purchased. Just tyring to get business rolling so sell jus over cost.
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Congrats and great to know. I will run any new part orders by you first before paying to have stuff shipped from California again. Should I just PM you or do you have another method of contact that you prefer for your parts company? My next focus will be tires or maybe wheels and tires, suspension, and brakes. I also need to get a new sunroof panel and the hardware for it.
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you can PM, I have a thread in the for sale section or my company email, amontoya@aemtechsolutions.com.
Just take care of one thing at a time, first cooling system to get car on the road. Also I would suggest once you have it working to flush system and then add BMW blue coolant, which I can also get. For now water would be fine but in the end distilled water only. Helps keeping clean.
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Well getting TO the water pump was pretty simple but I spent
two hours trying to get the damn thing out with no luck. I tried using the top
and bottom threaded wholes like in the instructions but the end result is a
broken bolt in the top one and I broke off a piece of the water pump flange
on the bottom. Tonight I will be taking the hood off to get a better angle, I
might have to build a tool to get this out.
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Wow, sounds like a lot of bad luck! I admire your calm persistence. Looks like you are replacing just about every cooling system part except the hoses and radiator -I guess with aluminum heads you can't be too careful. Good luck with the rest of the installation!
Oh and take care with that brass bleeder screw - when it's hot it is easy to ruin the threads in the plastic housing. I found this post with a good description on how to bleed the coolant : http://www.m42club.com/forums/showpost.php?p=56849&postcount=2
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Thank you, yeah I am used to the prices and labor involved in working on Z's so when I saw how much it would cost just to replace these parts the experience alone was worth it. I have been following your project since I bought the car and your progress has been a large motivator along with everyone else's.
Hopefully today will end with the car being back on the road but I have learned never to rule out another parts order. Thank you for the advice and I will follow the instructions you provided once I get everything back together.
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I chased an overheating problem all the way down the to head gasket. Hopfully some of the grief I went through can help you out.
Fan clutch test:
As car starts to over heat, run cool water from a garden hose across the radiator. (Radiator is clsoed all you do is spray water across the fins.) If the water pulls heat out of the radiator and allows the car to cool down its your fan/fan clutch.
Aux fan test (worth doing but probably not your issue):
Disconnect the temerapture switch connector mounted on the side of the radiator. Use a paper clip to jumper the leads. Start the car turn on the A/C (compressor and cabin fan). There are only three leads (ie. three combos for you to jump with the paper clip). Try each: one will drive the aux fan at full speed, one will drive the aux fan at low speed, the other will do nothing. This will tell you your aux fan works and it can tell you if the temp switch is bad (fan works in the test but not at temperature with the AC on).
Easier bleeding:
Place an asprin in the T-stat before installing. This keeps it craked open a bit so you can fill the block easier. When the car heats up the pill will disolve and allow the T-stat to close normally. You can also buy them with a small hole in the top or drill one in yourself. Jacking up the car as you said also helps. Be sure to turn the heater controls to full hot when filling so coolant can reach and fill the heater core.
Is it your headgasket?
My car would over heat at low RPM. I rev it up to past say 2500 and it cools down. Huh??? Turns out gases from combustion chamber were getting into the coolant system creating an airbubble at the top of the system. Spinning the water pump really fast forces water up into the head to cool it back down. (Just got the head back from the shop and miraculously it was not warped). Another symptom was no heat from the heater core at low RPM but had heat at high RPM.
Easy coolant draining:
Use a 6" by 1/2' ID hose from the drain to your pan to reduce the mess when draining the radiator.
Water pump:
If swapping the water pump get the one with a metal impeller.
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I just wanted to thank everyone for all the help. Just finished getting everything back together and she started right up and the bleeding instructions worked flawless. Left it running for about 20 minutes before taking it on a test drive with the temps staying below half the entire drive.
My girlfriend came down to help me out, my hands were a bit large to reach the sensors.
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4406/img4270p.jpg)
Can you tell which one is the old one?
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3514/img4257.jpg)
Beat, Happy, Sweaty...
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9910/img4276s.jpg)
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Which Z's? I alternate between the S14 240sx & BMWs myself. I have to get a Z one of these days...maybe a 240z? Nobody makes a decent rear-driver anymore...the Infiniti G35 isn't bad, just a bit too competent & feels too tame. The little Lexus has such a sterile feel, a bit dull & ugly to boot. New BMW 3s are ugly & seriously overweight.
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great news. I guess the pump was the cause of all your issues.
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unfortunately I had a bad habit of buying z31 turbos... I have always wanted a 240z but would settle on a 260z for a v8 swap. I spent a few months looking for a good candidate but even in Florida everything I could find was rusted pretty bad.