M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Electrical => Topic started by: melloh on July 24, 2006, 11:47:57 PM
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Forgive my laziness... but I will just be copy and pasting a message I posted on the bmwe30.net and roadfly forums. Someone from roadfly redirected me here.. and I'm glad he did b/c I never knew this site existed! Here goes:
Aloha, all. My adventures w/ installing the oem-style fogs into the bumper, I have reached an impasse. Apologies ahead of time for the length. You probably only need to read the end.
What I've done:
1) Bought used fogs w/ lights supposedly installed
2) bought used 2-button fog switch
3) bought clips from dealer for installing the fog BLANKS
4) located wiring for fogs
5) MAYBE? located wiring for switch (the only thing I found under/behind the dash that was even close to fitting the fog switch required that I break off a plastic nub w/ a painted blue dot on the tip so that it wouls fit)
6) from dealer, installed generic? 5-prong relay - had to break off the middle.
7) put in 7.5 fusein #29 an 30 (there was a 30 in both before. why? I dont know)
RESULTS:
When I turn on headlights - the driver-side fog turns on w/ it (in the end, i think the passenger fog bulb must be out.. will check soon to confirm)
The switch seems to do NOTHING!. Flipped it over - nothing. Took it out.. and the (driver) fog would still turn on w/ the headlights. I'm confused!!! It seems I cannot control the fog lights. I even swapped relays around - same thing.
FINALLY - the clips I got will NOT hold the fog lights. Any tips on where to find the right clips? Part #? I thought I was sneaky-smart getting the clips for the blanks b/c the dealer told me "we wont carry them b/c the fog lights were an aftermarket item"--- bastards.
ANY and all help is appreciated. Thanks much for your time and patience!!!!
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this may help you:
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157&highlight=foglight
(paging shellback!)
the relay you want is: 61.31-1374631
(I have one brand new if you need it, $15 shipped)
the foglight body screws and expanding plastic nuts are
(8) #07119916941, and #63171367868
I recommend talking to
vaheh at crevierbmw.com
or patrick at BMAparts.com
(not affiliated, just two titans of dealer parts who have helped me in the past)
in general, I'm not sure about your steps #5 and #6 ...I've never had to really do anything like that, and I'm a convicted fiddler with stuff like this...
Let us know where you are at and how you are doing...
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Thanks. The p/n will help. I'm still wondering why my fog would turn on regardless of the switch, though. Must be the wrong relay. I'll have to check my pn/ I wonder if they'll let me return it (i doubt it, though....)
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Ok, so I followed the links and have it all installed. One problem persists...
Here's the dilly:
61 31 1 380 013 (updated relay) installed: NO LIGHT! Switch will not turn on the fogs.
Using the 'generic' relay (or even using the relay from the headlights): Fog lights ON, but I cannot turn them off!?!? Unplugging the switch has NO effect.
So what's going on here? My best guess is that the headlight/generic relay is bypassing the switch. The 'correct' relay is not. So if this is true, then the switch is not working (or maybe I installed it wrong?)?
In reading the links, I couldn't find any topics like this mentioned. Hopefully someone here knows what I'm talking about. Thanks much in advance.
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I installed my fogs yesterday.
All i needed were the fogs, the connectors were already there, so plug and play.
Installed the foglight relay (i have a 4 pin one and it works) and changed my rear foglight switch with the double one wich controls both front and rear foglights. That's all, just plug and play.
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Thanks for the reply. But, everything is in. I know the lights will work, but I cannot toggle them w/ the switch. Anyone in the Bay Area (California) have one I can borrow just to try to see if it is indeed my switch? Specifically, I'm in San Jose. Not sure I can explain the situation any better... Thanks in advance.
Henry
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OK, here's how you can test the switch.
First, get a digital multi-meter. Borrow one from a friend, or you can pick one up at Sears or Radio Shack or somewhere like that for fairly cheap. If you can't get access to one, just take the switch into your local parts store. Someone in there should have one they will let you use for the 30 seconds this test will take.
Unhook the switch from the wires. This makes sure you are only reading the resistance of the switch, not components in the car.
Measure the resistance between the contacts with the switch "off". The reading should be infinate (or at least really high).
Next, place the switch in the "on" position. Your reading should drop to zero, or nearly zero.
if your switch behaved as I described, it is fine, look elsewhere for your problem. The two types of problems you might encounter with the switch are: 1) always infinate resisatance or 2) always no resistance. If I am understanding your symptoms right, it sounds like you would have no resistance, which would effectively turn the switch into s straight wire.
hth
Brian
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Unfortunately, the switch passed. Off ('up') postition - infinite, on (pressed) - flat 0.00.
I'm not sure where else to look or how.
Fuse: if it were the fuse, I imagine the lights wouldnt even turn on at all
Relay: not sure how to test this.
Wrong plug: Is it possible I'm plugging the switch in the wrong place? I have tried to flip-flop the switch, no effect. Yes - have tried both switches (2-button switch). Being a 2-button, does it have to have a rear fog installed? I imagine it doesnt. I'm lost!
Thanks again for any advice/help.
Henry
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OK, you know your switch is good. We just saved you $25 right there, that's the good news.
I'm a little confused about your symptoms. Do the fog lights stay on all the time? Only with the low beams? Does the switch have any effect at all?
Let me know. We'll have this problem solved, I promise.
Brian
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Ha ha... thanks!
Here it is.
With regular relay (same as headlights):
turn headlights on - fog goes on.
Re: switch... fogs will turn on regardless of switch position. it will stay on even when i pull the switch out!!!!
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With 'correct' relay (as mentioned above):
turn lights on - NO fog.
Toggling switch - NO effect (fog stays off)
FYI: headlights unaffected - stay on
It seems funny, that's why I'm confused. I will try to confirm this again tomorrow night and go through it more 'scientifically' just to be sure I didn't make a mistake. Oh, and just for kicks, I will see what happens when I toggle the high beams, too. So I guess... more to come!
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so you're saying when the headlights are off...you can turn the fogs on separately?
Thats pretty damn cool if ya ask me..
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Sorry for the confusion... but no. I wish! Fog will ONLY turn on IF:
1) headlights on
2) using generic relay OR relay same as one for headlights
note: in this situation... fog light is NOT dependent on fog switch. In fact, this will work even if the switch is NOT plugged in!! (As a consequence, I cannot toggle the fogs OFF independently.)
(Caps not meant to be rude... just for emphasis)
Does this clear it up any?
Just got back from class... will test it tonight after i get back from reading/study session.
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Sorry for the confusion... but no. I wish! Fog will ONLY turn on IF:
1) headlights on
2) using generic relay OR relay same as one for headlights
note: in this situation... fog light is NOT dependent on fog switch. In fact, this will work even if the switch is NOT plugged in!! (As a consequence, I cannot toggle the fogs OFF independently.)
(Caps not meant to be rude... just for emphasis)
Does this clear it up any?
Just got back from class... will test it tonight after i get back from reading/study session.
Can you please confirm the color of the wires that you are connecting to the fog light switch? I did not have to break anything off to install mine...
Also, the two-button switch is not a direct plug-n-play, as the US harness is not configured correctly for it.
Pictures would be marvelous.
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Sorry I haven't gotten back to y'all (3 tests this week). Well, I only had a little time to confirm the results. I can tell you this: the switch is sitting next to me yet the fogs will turn on w/ the lights (using the same relay as the headlights). Basically... everything I posted earlier remains true.
Regarding pictures... good idea! I will have to source a digital camera. Unfortunately, the earliest I can do that is next week (going to LA to pick up my e21 this weekend).
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Ok. Got the pictures finally. Let me know if I need more, please!
(http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=popup&image=http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=69)
(http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=popup&image=http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=71)
(http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=popup&image=http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=70)
Thess are the images of where I have been plugging in the switch. It was behind the oragne box... had to coax it out. Couldnt find anything else that the fog switch might fit into.
(http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=popup&image=http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=72)
The red circle is where i pulled off a small plastic nub (w/ blue paint on the tip). This is a 2-button switch. Clearly only wiring for one. Should I just get a 1-button switch?
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That's the correct plug. A two button switch will work fine, that's what I'm using. You could even wire the other button up to whatever you wanted to. I use mine to raise and lower my radio antenna.
After thinking about your problem, you might want to try to replace your relay with one that is known to be good (i.e. came off another car with functioning fogs), just to rule it out as a problem. I'm about 75% sure that's where your problem lies.
Brian
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Cool. Thanks Brian for keeping up w/ this. (I MUST be doing something wrong.) Ok, so anyone in the bay area want a free beer? What's the trade-off? I get to throw your relay in and see if it works, of course! The relay I have is brand new (the one does nothing). Is there a way to test the wiring in the plug to see if power is runnin gthrough it?
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Yes, you absolutly can and should check to see if you have power at the plug at the appropriate times. Get the E30 Bentley and your meter, and go to town.
OK. I just dug out my Bentley. You want Figure 10-2 on page 33 of the Electrical chapter, which is the last one in the book. That's the diagram of the headlight circuit for cars without check controll panels. Even better would be page ELE-182 from the E-36 Bentley, which is the Headlight/Foglight page for 1992-1994 E-36's, and is close enough to our cars to troubleshoot from, aside from being much more detailed.
Long story short, the plug that coresponds to pin 30 on your relay should be hot at all times.
the plug that corresponds to pin 87/87b is your output to the foglights. This one will have power whenever your lights are actually on.
Pins 86 and 85 are the ones that actually controll the relay. This is where all the action is. 86 is your input, and 85 is your output. Let me give you a quick and dirty into how a relay works. When there is a voltage drop between pins 86 and 85, the relay electrically closes the contacts between pins 30 and 87, which routes the actual power to your lights. Without that voltage drop at the appropriate times, there can be no light. So, what we want to see is a voltage present on pin 86 whenever your headlights and key are on. Pin 85 should show ground potential (0 volts to ground) at all times except when your high beams are on, when it should show a voltage.
If you have the conditions I just described, then Congratulations! We just isolated your relay as the culprit. If you have something else, then it's time to keep troubleshooting. I gave you everything you need to know, but I would strongly suggest you get a copy of that page out of the E-36 Bentley. It will def. help your understanding of the circuit.
Let me know how it goes
Brian
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HL= headlights
HB = High Beam
FS = Fog Switch
FL = Fog light
First, I tested for voltage @ the plug for the switch. Note - for everything it is w/ Key in ON position. The results were identical for both FL relays:
HL OFF
0.00v
HL ON
0.22v +/- .01
Then, I ran the relay test.
(http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=popup&image=http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=73)
Situation 1: w/ new HELLA relay (as in picture) PN: 61.311.374.631 (This is when I cannot get FL on at all)
Notes:
+ = clearly showed voltage (10-12.5v)
- = -.04-.04v
# = I displayed the number output on multimeter when voltage was > .05v
HL relay:
.....HL-OFF...HL-ON....HB - ON
30... + .......... + ........... -
85... + .......... - ........... -
86... + .......... + .......... +
87... - .......... + .......... .08
FL relay:
.....HL-OFF...HL-ON...HB - ON....FS - ON
30... + .......... + ........... + ......... +
85... - .......... + ......... 0.08 ....... +
86... - ......... 0.11 ......... - ........ 0.11
87... - .......... - ............ - .......... -
Situation 2: W/ generic (lime-green 5 prong w/ middle prong broken off PN: 61.368.375.700 - TYCO w/ BMW stamp) or orange headlight relay (when fogs would turn on w/ headlights even w/o switch attached)
HL relay:
.....HL-OFF...HL-ON...HB - ON
30... + .......... + ........ -
85... + .......... - ........ -
86... + .......... + ....... +
87... - .......... + ..... 0.08
FL relay:
.....HL-OFF...HL-ON...HB - ON
30... + .......... + ........ +
85... - .......... + ....... 0.07
86... - ......... 0.08 ..... -
87... - .......... + ....... -
And now to add to the confusion... just to check again, I pulled the switch while HL on & FL on and FL went out this time. So, I turned everything off again, put the switch back, and the fogs would not turn on again at all. Very strange. Checked fuses - OK. Maybe I burned the bulb. Just added as a side note.
If nothing can be figured out from this, then I may as well just give up and live w/ my fogs being on all the time and perhaps start wiring so they stay on w/ HB. Thanks again for all your time!
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HL= headlights
HB = High Beam
FS = Fog Switch
FL = Fog light
First, I tested for voltage @ the plug for the switch. Note - for everything it is w/ Key in ON position. The results were identical for both FL relays:
HL OFF
0.00v
HL ON
0.22v +/- .01
Then, I ran the relay test.
(http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=popup&image=http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=73)
Situation 1: w/ new HELLA relay (as in picture) PN: 61.311.374.631 (This is when I cannot get FL on at all)
Notes:
+ = clearly showed voltage (10-12.5v)
- = -.04-.04v
# = I displayed the number output on multimeter when voltage was > .05v
HL relay:
.....HL-OFF...HL-ON....HB - ON
30... + .......... + ........... -
85... + .......... - ........... -
86... + .......... + .......... +
87... - .......... + .......... .08
FL relay:
.....HL-OFF...HL-ON...HB - ON....FS - ON
30... + .......... + ........... + ......... +
85... - .......... + ......... 0.08 ....... +
86... - ......... 0.11 ......... - ........ 0.11
87... - .......... - ............ - .......... -
Situation 2: W/ generic (lime-green 5 prong w/ middle prong broken off PN: 61.368.375.700 - TYCO w/ BMW stamp) or orange headlight relay (when fogs would turn on w/ headlights even w/o switch attached)
HL relay:
.....HL-OFF...HL-ON...HB - ON
30... + .......... + ........ -
85... + .......... - ........ -
86... + .......... + ....... +
87... - .......... + ..... 0.08
FL relay:
.....HL-OFF...HL-ON...HB - ON
30... + .......... + ........ +
85... - .......... + ....... 0.07
86... - ......... 0.08 ..... -
87... - .......... + ....... -
And now to add to the confusion... just to check again, I pulled the switch while HL on & FL on and FL went out this time. So, I turned everything off again, put the switch back, and the fogs would not turn on again at all. Very strange. Checked fuses - OK. Maybe I burned the bulb. Just added as a side note.
If nothing can be figured out from this, then I may as well just give up and live w/ my fogs being on all the time and perhaps start wiring so they stay on w/ HB. Thanks again for all your time!
Does your low beam relay only have 4 lugs on it?
It's raining out now, or I would check mine, but I believe the low beam relay should have 5 lugs.
I would also verify that you have continuity on your grounds from the foglight plug.
More later - I have to make dinner for the kids right now... :)
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Yessir. Only 4, and the fifth (middle) would have nowhere to go. I can take a pic tomorrow if needed. In fact, the 'generic' TYCO relay i mentioned came w/ 5, but i had to pull the middle off so it would go in.
How would I check for this continuity? Yes - I AM a greenhorn (sorry).
Henry
(thanks for replying, btw)
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Hmmmm.....
I think we may be on to something. Pulling out pins from a generic relay = a good sign we've found your problem. Pick up a real lowbeam relay and try it. I'm now about 95% sure this is your problem.
Brian
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AND.... to add to the mix....
If your hi-beam relay pin 87a is not getting +12V when the low beams are on, the fog light relay won't close and your foglights won't work either.
[EDIT: foglight switch should be on for the above]
To check for continuity, set your VOM to ohms to measure resistance; one lead goes to the brown wire on the foglight connector, the other to ground (there is a ground stud behind the headlights, or you should be able to just connect it to the engine). The resistance should be at or very very near 0 ohms.
[EDIT again: I would definitely make sure that the pinout of your relays match the pinout of the factory relays - standard automotive relays will physically fit, but the pinout is different, i.e., the standard generic relay will have pin 30 where BMW wants pin 85, or something along those lines.]
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Hello, gents. The actual test was done w/ the same (orange) relay as the lowbeam, not the generic tyco (because the orange relay has a tiny hole in the pins that I used to thread in a wire so I could test w/ multimeter as seen in the picture whereas the generic had no holes... so orange, regualr lowbeam relay was used for the testing situation 2).
Another note: I'm an idiot... ignore the part about fog no longer working. I did the test during daytime and neglected to notice i left the highbeams on after running voltage tests (did HB test last). So basically - nothing has changed. W/ orange or generic, no switch - fog on. w/ new 'real fog' relay (PN....631) - fogs off no matter what.
Someone before asked what color the wires were at the plug for the switch? It looked like they are both blue, just one has a white stripe in it (?). It can be seen in the link before:
(http://www.m42club.com/forums/vbgara...getimage&id=70)
Regarding continuity at the plug for the fog - is this an issue if we know the fogs can turn on? I can probably check it pretty easily, but i'm not sure it's necessary? This test would make sense to me only if the fogs wouldnt turn on no matter what. Or, am I missing something in this logic? Not trying to be argumentative or ungrateful - just trying to understand.
I know I say thanks every time... but, it's because I really cannot thank you gents enough for taking the time!
Cheers,
Henry
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The wires at the switch should be gray and gray with a blue stripe.
The ground check is to make sure that the foglights are properly grounded - sometimes a bad ground can manifest itself strangely, as the current finds ground in new and interesting ways.
My relay is stamped Bosch part number 61 31 1 375 474... which adds to the confusion, as Pelican Parts lists a different part than either this one or the one you are using (61 36 1 378 238), and RealOEM is not very helpful in finding the appropriate relay. If it helps any, though, my foglights work AND this is the same relay as nearly all of the other relays under my hood.
I still think it's a relay problem. Do you have the Electrical schematic for the foglights, pages 6312-0 and 6312-1?