M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Suspension => Topic started by: M42boy on July 13, 2006, 04:04:10 PM
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Hey guys...
I see a lot of options for strut tower braces for the E30 3-Series cars, but not sure which of them will actually fit our cars. I guess I could order one and try it. Send it back if it doesn't fit, but I'd rather do without the hassle.
So, I really want one that has a good reinforcement ring where the mount goes all around the entire surface of the upper strut tower.
I've found these options that have this feature (the Sparco does not):
Racing Dynamics (but, don't think it will work with M42)
Bavarian Autosport (looks like it may work best)
Hartge (I think this one might be discontinued)
AC Schnitzer
My big concern is with how high the intake manifold goes up on the M42. The ones that go straight accross may not clear this. Ones with a design that go back toward the firewall I think will work fine, however. There are several designs like this as the E30 M3 has the same issue (high intake).
Do any of you have any of these options. If so, please tell me more. And, of course, pictures are worth a thousand words! :cool:
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I have always loved the look of the double bar ones.
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I actually stumbled upon this picture of the Hartge brace. Really looks nice, and you can see how the strut assembly bolts through it. But, I'm pretty sure this piece of equipment has been discontinued.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/nculora/Dscf0378.jpg)
How clean is THAT engine bay!!! :cool:
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Bav Auto can get the exact same brace as the Hartge one, and it's made in the same factory (from what I've been told). I have it on my car and IMO it's the best bar around. The IE bar is flimsy and it's a copy of the sparco so I assume it's no better. Also with the Hartge you don't need to drill the shock towers which is not a good idea *imo*
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d622b3127cce93633ae1a9ab00000016108AbsnDhi1aNj)
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I was going to use my Sparcos but sold them as I just didn't feel the need this time around and had to fund other things :rolleyes:.
I think they are the best bar period and had them on one of my older m42s with some spacer washers to clear the intake manifold.
The 3rd bolt to apply when using the Sparco's is optional and it supposedly does help a little as most of the cars you see @ the track have them so my guess is it does help a bit?
I thought someone was organizing a GB on them a while ago?
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I'm running a Sparco on mine - it is *tight* over the intake manifold. Even with washers, I couldn't get a sheet of paper between... I ended up grinding down the very back top end of the intake manifold slightly. There is still barely enough room to breathe in there, but it fits, and it doesn't look like it is rubbing. I'll get a feeler gauge in there and see how much room there is, but really, not much at all.
I darn near took the Sparco to a shop to have them notch it and weld in a plate to cover the notch, but decided I'd run it this way first.
It's been on for several weeks, and the roads I drive in DC are none too friendly to lowered cars, but it seems to be doing well. Certainly an improvement in handling, and, as I said, it looks like I solved the clearance issues.
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Bav Auto can get the exact same brace as the Hartge one, and it's made in the same factory (from what I've been told). I have it on my car and IMO it's the best bar around. The IE bar is flimsy and it's a copy of the sparco so I assume it's no better. Also with the Hartge you don't need to drill the shock towers which is not a good idea *imo*
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d622b3127cce93633ae1a9ab00000016108AbsnDhi1aNj)
awsome, how much was it?
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Notice how the Sparco mounting point that rests on the strut towers has the part that folds down and prevents all the stress from being put on the strut mount bolts. That's all I seek in a strut bar in addition to it being one piece and non-hinged :D You can also see the hole for the "3rd bolt" on that same extension.
(http://www.r3vlimited.com/gallery/files/7/5/0/3/423f8b9073156.jpg)
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easiest option is to run ITBs. then you can fit the sparco. :D
I thought about doing the 'box section' cut and shut on the sparco to make it clear, but i cbf'd. i'l leave the sparco in the garage til im on ITBs. or DASC'd hehe.
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Sorry I don't remember, check their web site.
M
awsome, how much was it?
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Bav Auto can get the exact same brace as the Hartge one, and it's made in the same factory (from what I've been told). I have it on my car and IMO it's the best bar around. The IE bar is flimsy and it's a copy of the sparco so I assume it's no better. Also with the Hartge you don't need to drill the shock towers which is not a good idea *imo*
Looks good Mike! Nice to know, and looking at the pictures side to side, they look EXACTLY like the Hartige one in the picture above. :D
Well, unfortunately, through a situation beyond my control.. my strut towers have been slightly "modified", which is part of my reason for wanting a strut tower brace to begin with... to basically add more reinforcement to that area. And, of course, the cornering stability is a sweet upside as well! :cool:
This may be the next mod! Thanks for the info.
BTW, your engine bay is a close second to that M3 in the cleanliness department! I love the black valve and intake covers.
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I think you should study the function of a strut bar and the stresses on the car before you buy a bar. I would sudjest reading Gustav,s E30 M3 web sight. He has a PHD in mechanical engineering and has discused the dtrut bar and how it should work. My conclusion is that most bars are made for looks and not function, and thats ok if thats what you are into. My sudjestion for a strut bar is to buy on off of ebay. I know this sounds crazy but there is a guy selling a bar that he is making out of California and it is made properly. His bar accounts for the actual stresses on the strut tower.
Gustav,s sight http://e30m3performance.com/
and the strut bar on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-E30-RACING-FRONT-SHOCK-TOWER-STRUT-BAR-STEEL_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33591QQihZ017QQitemZ270006898099QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
The bar is made by John Mason, he spent years building real race cars and knows what he is doing, besides he is a realy nice guy.
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GB possiblility? I would be more than happy to head it up.
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GB possiblility? I would be more than happy to head it up.
On which one? I'm inclined to go with the BavAutosport one as it looks like it's proven to fit/work well.
The Ebay one look basically the same design, albeit a little cheaper. I figure for $245, the BavAutosport one looks like pretty much a winner. If we can get that price down, I'm all for it! :D
The only downside I see to the ones that go all around the strut tower is that it doesn't look like you can really access the top of the shock, which means it isn't real practical to make adjustments via an adjustable camber plate.
The Sparco one looks like it's the best option if you want to run adjustable camber plates. For the BavAuto/Hartge stut tower brace, you will either have to run something like BavAuto's 3/4 deg fixed OE replacement stut bearings or basically leave your camber plate set to a "neutral" setting like 3/4 or 1 deg of neg camber. Of course, that really defeats the purpose of an adjustable plate. :(
I'm still leaning towards the Bavarian Autosport strut tower brace. It looks great and looks like a very good design.
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has anyone inquired about the aluminum ones from the ebay auction? 3lbs seeems pretty light
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has anyone inquired about the aluminum ones from the ebay auction? 3lbs seeems pretty light
let me know which one you guys want the most and I'll head it up.
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The only downside I see to the ones that go all around the strut tower is that it doesn't look like you can really access the top of the shock, which means it isn't real practical to make adjustments via an adjustable camber plate.
The Sparco one looks like it's the best option if you want to run adjustable camber plates.
Yup another concern of mine as I have Koni SAs and GC camber plates so access is important
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Hey guys...
I see a lot of options for strut tower braces for the E30 3-Series cars, but not sure which of them will actually fit our cars. I guess I could order one and try it. Send it back if it doesn't fit, but I'd rather do without the hassle.
So, I really want one that has a good reinforcement ring where the mount goes all around the entire surface of the upper strut tower.
I've found these options that have this feature (the Sparco does not):
Racing Dynamics (but, don't think it will work with M42)
Bavarian Autosport (looks like it may work best)
Hartge (I think this one might be discontinued)
AC Schnitzer
My big concern is with how high the intake manifold goes up on the M42. The ones that go straight accross may not clear this. Ones with a design that go back toward the firewall I think will work fine, however. There are several designs like this as the E30 M3 has the same issue (high intake).
Do any of you have any of these options. If so, please tell me more. And, of course, pictures are worth a thousand words! :cool:
HERE ARE PICTURES OF E30 TOWER BARS I HAVE DEVELOPED TO FIT ALL MODELS
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I don't see any pics :(
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I thought someone was organizing a GB on them a while ago?
Yeah, snowmann was going to biuld something custom that resembled the Sparco.
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283
I had hoped to get in on it, but it seemed to have lost its momentum and I don't know what came of it (PM'd snowmann and never heard back).
I really like the Sparco, but that ebay bar doesn't look bad either and being that it is a small outfitt looking for dealers, I bet we might be able to get a sweet deal on a group buy. I'd be interested in getting in on a group buy regardless of what we come up with.
Maybe we should start a new thread in the Vender/GB forum . . .
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HERE ARE PICTURES OF E30 TOWER BARS I HAVE DEVELOPED TO FIT ALL MODELS
I believe he biulds the ebay bar . . . judging from his user name.
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I'll call BavAutosport tomorrow. I don't know if they would do a group buy, but I guess it can't hurt to ask. I'll see if they are open to the idea and how many people they would need.
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uh i didnt read the entire thread but i have a racing dynamics brace and it fits
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From the ebay bar's write up:
"A marked improvement in handling can be achieved with a significant and noticeable increase in suspension firmness. This is especially true if BOTH the front and rear 'Mason Engineering' supports are used."
There are no rear struts. The rear bar is tying the shock mounts together. Cornering force in the rear is carried by the trailing arms into the suspension subframe.
The main point of the M3 page referenced above is that the benefits of a strut bar are in minimizing the effect of repeated stress on the chassis. It makes no claim to actual handling improvements. It does mention that stresses to the towers in cornering are to the outside of the turn. Therefore the bar that goes down the side of the tower is of no import as stress is going in the opposite direction. Don't take my word for it read the article.
http://e30m3performance.com/ (http://e30m3performance.com/) Interesting that it is under "Myths and Misconceptions" The only real need for a strut bar is on a track car. Even the factory E30 M3's didn't use them.
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HI GUYS
Allow me to explain/clarify the front and rear tower bars i have designed,front is a twin tube of 1in. dia. running across with punch/flared sheet metal shear plate on the top , positioned extreme rear-highest point of engine compartment ,for all type plenum clearances there are 2 types of materials of choice steel or aircraft grade domestic aluminum alloy 6063 t6-511, the end platforms are of the open top 6in. dia. with a 3 5/8 dia inner hole which allows easy access for camber/ dampner adjustments the bar assy. is of the hinge-less 1 piece design without bolted tabs, this is very good for load carrying abilities but can be troublesome on the installation as there is very little margin of variance amongst elderly chassis. front stl5lb alum.3lb rear stl.41/2lb alum2lb design revised and - approved/blessed by gustav stroes-
the rear bar is of same materials but is unique in that ther are 6 1/4 dia.bolts
per side that attatch bar side skirts to wheelhouse transfering 1200 lb. of vertical loads each bolt 6x1200=7200lb shear. this bar is very easy to bolt on-no welding required - but recomended for racers, sold under the name jjmtools ebay = not made in china , does not have carbon fiber scotch tape
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...snip. It does mention that stresses to the towers in cornering are to the outside of the turn. Therefore the bar that goes down the side of the tower is of no import as stress is going in the opposite direction. Don't take my word for it read the article.
http://e30m3performance.com/ (http://e30m3performance.com/) Interesting that it is under "Myths and Misconceptions" The only real need for a strut bar is on a track car. Even the factory E30 M3's didn't use them.
Yeah the strut bar theory has been debated end on end by various e30 guys. I personally still think the 3rd bolt will still help avoid the strut tower bolts bearing the full duty of preventing the push force on the strut towers but my unscientific theory leaves a lot to be desired :D
I have personally noticed better high speed stability in long sweeping turns and even a simple act such as driving up a driveway at an angle shows the effect of the bar.
I hope to get into the position to afford the "mason kit" someday soon. I'd prefer to do s.frame and t.arm bushings first though. We'll see what the m42 hamster fund will be able to procure in the future.
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From http://e30m3performance.com (http://e30m3performance.com/)
"So the conclusion is that when an M3 corners at 1G with 100% weight transfer at the front wheels, there is a 333 lb force pulling OUT on the outer strut tower. Another point to consider is that if your outer strut tower is deflected outwards 0.20" by this 333 lb force, then you just lost 0.5° of negative camber! If it deflects 0.42" you have lost a full degree of negative camber."
If the towers deflected that much, the fender's would get wrinkles. It would also turn the unibody into a giant spring - an unknown, progressive, untunable one.
It would be time to get a new unibody.
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Gustave is the man no doubt. Not arguing with you or him - just having a hard time seeing how a 3rd bolt is seen as neglible. Almost like how you have better "point of contact" with 3 points of attachment versus 2. :)
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I don't have a PhD in Physicis or Stuctural Engineering, but something tells me if you can tie together the strut towers and reinforce that big empty hole that the motor sits in-between, you are doing a good thing for the stability of the car under cornering load.
Just my own gut feeling on the subject. The "seat of the pants" method works more times than not. :cool:
I think a rear brace would be good too, but all in due time. I saw a Korman Autoworks RSB this weekend and it was a very impressive piece... however, coming from Korman, I'm sure it isn't cheap.
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I don't have a PhD in Physicis or Stuctural Engineering, but something tells me if you can tie together the strut towers and reinforce that big empty hole that the motor sits in-between, you are doing a good thing for the stability of the car under cornering load.
Just my own gut feeling on the subject. The "seat of the pants" method works more times than not. :cool:
I think a rear brace would be good too, but all in due time. I saw a Korman Autoworks RSB this weekend and it was a very impressive piece... however, coming from Korman, I'm sure it isn't cheap.
dang man, you should have let me know you were in town. I was at Korman this weekend some.
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I had a Racing Dynamics one. It fit 100% fine. It is very nice to have one with the swiveling ends...getting it on & off is a snap, well comapred to fixed ones. A little pricey at $230, but i though it was worth it. And all that stuff about it being real weak compared to the steel one is nonsense.
Yes, the steel one is gonna be stiffer, but the handling difference between no brace and the RD one is HUGE, while the handling difference between the RD and steel one is miniscule in comparison.
In my crash I hit a tree sideways at close to 60mph, and the RD brace saved the motor (it did not survive though). I have been informed that having a really stiff steel one in there would have probably led my passenger & I to suffer a lot more injury as it would prevent the chassis from doing its job...absorbing impact. The aluminum one crumpled a lot more than the steel one would have I am betting, and I only had whiplash for a few days. I guess after being in a big crash I put safety first now, and I would not use a steel one for that reason.
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Just to make sure I'm not being mis-quoted:
1. I do beleive that a stress bar is helpful, on the track and the street. All my cars have one.
2. Make sure to read the second page of my stress bar analysis:
http://e30m3performance.com/myths/Strutbar_Theory/strut_bar_comp.htm
3. The Motorsport racecars had a full cage tied into the strut towers, they did not need a strut brace for this reason.
4. I never said that the strut towers would deflect 0.5". That was just to give someone an idea of how camber change related to strut tower deflection. But I would not underestimate how much they can flex with sticky tires on a bumby track. That is the main reason for a stress bar in my opinion - proper and consistent camber control.
HTH,
Gustave
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It's not clear from the relevant posts above (to me anyway). Does a bar on the rear actually do anything? Just based on the relative wimpyness of the rear shock mounts and the size of the shock towers it doesn't seem like BMW expected that much stress back there.
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Worry not - they haven't discussed it above. The rear bar is another can of worms in the e30 suspension world. Interesting point to note is that some e30s have issues of the welds there separating. Rare - but it does happen.
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Some people say they don't do a thing, others say that they do wonders.
I don't have one but I think they do work on e30's. I have driven them w/ and w/out and before and after.
This all boils down to $100, you really can't go wrong on a bar for $100. Even if it doesn't work it still would be nice to have. I would have one now but I have been holding out for a double bar.
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Even if it doesn't work it still would be nice to have.
:confused: help me out here. How it would nice to have if it doesn't work? Or am I missing something?
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like a cone filter, their advantages are questionable but they sound awsome. A strut bar will stiffen up the body from saging, I don't think anyone disagrees w/ that. The argument seems to be do they add better response and handling. Even if it doesn't increase handling it still helps reduce sag and looks awsome.
That is all. ;)
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Thanks for the input. I'll probably get one anyway. It's not that heavy and it probably won't hurt anything.
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Just to make sure I'm not being mis-quoted:
1. I do beleive that a stress bar is helpful, on the track and the street. All my cars have one.
2. Make sure to read the second page of my stress bar analysis:
http://e30m3performance.com/myths/Strutbar_Theory/strut_bar_comp.htm
3. The Motorsport racecars had a full cage tied into the strut towers, they did not need a strut brace for this reason.
4. I never said that the strut towers would deflect 0.5". That was just to give someone an idea of how camber change related to strut tower deflection. But I would not underestimate how much they can flex with sticky tires on a bumby track. That is the main reason for a stress bar in my opinion - proper and consistent camber control.
HTH,
Gustave
Thanks for clearing this up Gustave... Makes a lot more sense now. I totally agree. :D
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HI GUYS
Allow me to explain/clarify the front and rear tower bars i have designed,front is a twin tube of 1in. dia. running across with punch/flared sheet metal shear plate on the top , positioned extreme rear-highest point of engine compartment ,for all type plenum clearances there are 2 types of materials of choice steel or aircraft grade domestic aluminum alloy 6063 t6-511, the end platforms are of the open top 6in. dia. with a 3 5/8 dia inner hole which allows easy access for camber/ dampner adjustments the bar assy. is of the hinge-less 1 piece design without bolted tabs, this is very good for load carrying abilities but can be troublesome on the installation as there is very little margin of variance amongst elderly chassis. front stl5lb alum.3lb rear stl.41/2lb alum2lb design revised and - approved/blessed by gustav stroes-
the rear bar is of same materials but is unique in that ther are 6 1/4 dia.bolts
per side that attatch bar side skirts to wheelhouse transfering 1200 lb. of vertical loads each bolt 6x1200=7200lb shear. this bar is very easy to bolt on-no welding required - but recomended for racers, sold under the name jjmtools ebay = not made in china , does not have carbon fiber scotch tape
A seldom revealed fact in regards to domestic aircraft grade 6000 series weldable aluminum tube it is 1/3 the weight of steel and in a compression load situation it is 2x stronger than steel before yield point, is also by nature is non-corrosive and non-magnetic, so it seems if the strut bar is designed correctly - welded precisely and in compression it would be an advantageous choice for a lite=weight add on load bearing structure
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so how much for the aluminum ones John?
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dang man, you should have let me know you were in town. I was at Korman this weekend some.
Actually, I wasn't at Korman... But, do want to check out thier facility when I'm up that way. I think they know the older cars better or as well as anyone in the country. If I hit the lottery, I'll hire them to restore/build an E30 M3 for me. :rolleyes:
I was up at "the yard" and some guy up there was installing one on a E21 320i with an M20 conversion (super eta block with worked iS head).
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so how much for the aluminum ones John?
yeah . . . what's the "Forum Member price" ;)
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I had a Racing Dynamics one. It fit 100% fine. It is very nice to have one with the swiveling ends...getting it on & off is a snap, well comapred to fixed ones. A little pricey at $230, but i though it was worth it. And all that stuff about it being real weak compared to the steel one is nonsense.
Yes, the steel one is gonna be stiffer, but the handling difference between no brace and the RD one is HUGE, while the handling difference between the RD and steel one is miniscule in comparison.
I also have the Racing Dynamics strut bar. Aside from looking very good, it stiffened up the front of the car and I saw a huge difference in cornering at the track. It's also very light and I love the fact it's not fixed. My strut towers were of the smaller distance and the bar initially didn't fit. I ovalised the holes with a dremel and it fits perfectly now and it can be adjusted for the larger distance struts. A strut bar of any sort is a must have for anyone tracking/doing heavy cornering IMHO. I recommend the RD bar.
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I also have the Racing Dynamics strut bar. Aside from looking very good, it stiffened up the front of the car and I saw a huge difference in cornering at the track. It's also very light and I love the fact it's not fixed. My strut towers were of the smaller distance and the bar initially didn't fit. I ovalised the holes with a dremel and it fits perfectly now and it can be adjusted for the larger distance struts. A strut bar of any sort is a must have for anyone tracking/doing heavy cornering IMHO. I recommend the RD bar.
ditto, my rd bar owns aswell
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It seems OMP makes a bar for our car as well. I'm trying to get more info on this option at the moment, but the guy who sells them isn't being very responsive.
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I have an OMP on my 318ti. It's a very nice piece, but I checked their website the other day and I couldn't seem to find a fitment for the E30. Did I just miss it?
Edit: Never mind. I found it. This one, right?
MA/1557
(http://www.ompracing.com/images/motore_ricerca/big/MA1557.jpg)
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Here's my Eibach, a perfect fit, and because it has the adjustable ends, its pretty easy to install. I bought it used from Dave Adams for about $70 or so.
(http://homepage.mac.com/mgold/.Pictures/4_2006/ENG1.JPG)
(http://homepage.mac.com/mgold/.Pictures/4_2006/ENG2.JPG)
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That looks eerily similar to the OMP. I ordered my OMP when I was stationed in Germany. I ordered it at the same time as my Pro-Kit and used an Eibach part number. When it arrived it had a huge OMP sticker on it. My guess is that OMP made Eibach's strut braces. Incidentally, the Eibach website no longer lists strut braces.
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Yeah, I've had mine for a few years and prior to that it was on Dave Adams' M-technic cabrio. The Eibach logo is etched on so its likely OMP bought the production rights or are simply rebadging Eibach bars (BMP does that all the time). Who knows.
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yeah . . . what's the "Forum Member price" ;)
YOU GUYS CAN HAVE 5% DISCOUNT OFF ALL MY BARS WITH $20.00 SHIPPING CHARGE FOR ONE BAR AND $28.00 FOR CAR SETS. THESE BARS ARE STATE OF THE ART ONE PIECE NON HINGED DESIGN, FABRICATED PROPERLY USING DOMESTIC U. S. MATERIALS
-NEWS FLASH - SOME PREVIOUS BAR CUSTOMER IN LOUISIANA WAS SUBSEQUENTLY T-BONED BY A OUT OF CONTROL SUV HE STATED THAT THE REAR BAR WAS OF BENEFIT IN A SAFETY ISSUE IN THAT IT PREVENTED THE TRUNK COMPARTMENT FROM COLLAPSING ENTIRELY = TRUE STORY=, HE WANT"S NEW BARS FOR NEXT CAR=HAPPY RETURN CUSTOMER
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Well, I have no doubt OMP makes the bars for Eibach or vice versa. But, I do notice one difference. Look at the size of the opening in the middle of where it mounts to the upper strut tower. The one in the pic you claim is for the E30 looks like it has a much wider opening than the one on mgold's car.
My guess is the one on OMP's website is a "stock photo" and may not be a picture of the exact bar. I'm guessing they'd look identical if you ordered one.
I'm thinking about this one now as it's $180 vs. $245 for the BavAutosport one, but I've heard a lot of positive things about the twin bar one BavAuto sells.
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Just for the record, I'm not claiming that it's for the E30, the OMP website is. I got the part number and the picture from there. I was unclear about my bar. That was for my 318ti, not my 318i. I like the looks of John Mason's bars, but I like the ability to remove the bar without removing the whole assembly. You can take the OMP bars off with an allen wrench without removing the plates on the towers. I have to remove the bar on my ti to get access to all of the spark plugs. It's marginally less of a PITA to just remove the bar. Having said all that, I'll probably get John's set when I get some for the 318i.
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Well, my bad E30 luck continues....
As e9nine pointed out, I must have the worst luck with E30's out of anyone. Most people love the reliability aspect, but mine has been a basket of issues since day one.
Anyways, I ordered a Bavarian Autosport aluminum strut tower brace last week. It's a really beautiful (and very light) piece, btw! Anyways, I go to install it and nope... It no fit!!!
I must have the shorter distance between strut towers disease that some E30's somehow have been plagued with. I even thought about this when I heard about the two lengths, but I heard it was just a difference between older and newer cars, and I thought I had read that all the later model cars had the longer distance.
See below.
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/IMG_5479.sized.jpg)
Fits on one side...
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/IMG_5482.sized.jpg)
But definately not on both sides! :(
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/IMG_5485.sized.jpg)
I know others have this same bar. Did it go on smoothly? I'm wondering if I should just send it back and get an adjustable one like the OMP, or I might be able to bend this one to make it fit properly. It isn't off by a HUGE amount.
I'm a little skeptical about messing with it though.
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Just cause the bar doesn't fit doesn't mean you've been plagued with issues m42boy, lol. It could be worse!
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M42boy try jacking up the car on one side (or both) and see if the chassis flexes enough to allow you to install it. Don't raise it too much as you don't want the front suspension to fall out, but just enough to relieve some pressure. I had some problems when I installed my strut bar initially. In a way I'm glad I have the Eibach bar, it has some flexibility. Unfortunately it also means its not as stable as the BavAuto (Hartge) bar. Good luck!
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MEASURE ALL THE STUDS CENTER TO CENTER ACROSS AND POST THOSE DIMENSIONS,AND I WILL REFERENCE TOOLING MY ARCHIVES , WHY DON"T YOU CUT AND RE-WELD WHILST INSTALLED ON CHASSIS?
Just cause the bar doesn't fit doesn't mean you've been plagued with issues m42boy, lol. It could be worse!
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MEASURE ALL THE STUDS CENTER TO CENTER ACROSS AND POST THOSE DIMENSIONS,AND I WILL REFERENCE TOOLING MY ARCHIVES , WHY DON"T YOU CUT AND RE-WELD WHILST INSTALLED ON CHASSIS?
I can't weld shit. :p
That's for people like you. I don't mess with metal work, welding or body work AT ALL!
I'm gonna call Bav Autosport on it. I may need to get an adjustable one. But, this bar is REALLY nice, REALLY light, and I REALLY would like to use it.
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Do all of the strut bolts appear to be pointing in the same direction? If so I would do what mgold suggested. Find another E30 and compare the fit on that one. If still no go then have BavAuto trade it for another one and see if maybe its the bar cut.
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Can't believe I missed this post haha.
Dan we can test fit on my cars if you like. I'd suggest jacking the car up as suggested though. With my Sparcos I never had any issues with fitment for the stock strut mounts and with GC adjustable plates.
Worry not buddy - :D
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Can't believe I missed this post haha.
Dan we can test fit on my cars if you like. I'd suggest jacking the car up as suggested though. With my Sparcos I never had any issues with fitment for the stock strut mounts and with GC adjustable plates.
Worry not buddy - :D
Car is already up on all four jack stands right now as I'm still trying to sort the prop shaft issue. My E30 has been a nice garage decoration.... I certaintly can't seem to ever get to drive it though.
Anyone want a stagnant E30 garage ornemant?
No, the upper strut studs are all fine, but it was noted that some people have two different lengths in-between thier strut towers. Off a few mm (enough to cause issues when mounting a bar like this).
I don't think BavAutosport makes a bar in another length, but I'll ask. Yeah, e9nine... I'd like to see if it fits one or both of your cars! Let me bring it over when we look at your prop shaft alighnment! :D
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actually there is no adequate filler wire for welding used food ,as the alloying constituents are of a questionable origin not allowing proper coalescence,
I can't weld shit. :p
That's for people like you. I don't mess with metal work, welding or body work AT ALL!
I'm gonna call Bav Autosport on it. I may need to get an adjustable one. But, this bar is REALLY nice, REALLY light, and I REALLY would like to use it.
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actually there is no adequate filler wire for welding used food ,as the alloying constituents are of a questionable origin not allowing proper coalescence,
LOL!!!!
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actually there is no adequate filler wire for welding used food ,as the alloying constituents are of a questionable origin not allowing proper coalescence
I'm gonna punch yaw mamma in the mouth! :rolleyes:
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So, I brought it down to my neighbor's house last night... tried test fitting the Bav Autosport bar on his '88 325iS and it doesn't fit that either. Hmmm.
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Seems I'm the only one that cares about this... Oh well.
I called Bav Autosport to complain to them today that thier strut brace doesn't fit. He was telling me that he has had a lot of people tell him that they won't fit, or won't fit well... etc... They've sent a lot back. So, I showed him something I read on the IE website:
IMPORTANT--The factory book says the distance between the strut towers is 1002.2mm +-2mm (39.5"). Measured from center to center (where the shock sticks thru). We have found many cars that measure about 980mm (38.75"). This leads us to believe BMW made two slightly different unibodies. Therefore we now make two versions of our brace. Please specify model and year, and measure your car to specify the "regular" or "short" brace.
He'd never heard this before... But said he was going to investigate this and may end up trying to make a version of this lover strut tower brace to fit our "shorty" cars!
That would be AWSOME! :D
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I use the 8mm dia.studs for all datum measurments , that seems to be a bit more precise and straight foreword than finding center of the large dia. hole, On e30 chassis i use the front pair studs and measure center to center across, I have seen on 3 un-molested/damaged chassis 36 1/8 - 36 3/16 -36 1/4 inches =add them up ==108.562, divide by 3 ==it seems the median average is = 36 3/16 inch c-c, this is approximate/there about definitely the stuff shrinks whilst welding so we put the fixture greater so the part will shrink into spec.when cool, one piece strut bars are of a superior design nature,and function but also bring some amount of fitting grief along with it , one physical law of planet earth is that "poop flows downhill" and also another in regards to racecar parts is you cannot make "chicken soup out of chicken shit" == [J.M. 1987] when i telephone bavarian auto they do not take my calls , why is that??my bars fit - theirs do not
Seems I'm the only one that cares about this... Oh well.
I called Bav Autosport to complain to them today that thier strut brace doesn't fit. He was telling me that he has had a lot of people tell him that they won't fit, or won't fit well... etc... They've sent a lot back. So, I showed him something I read on the IE website:
IMPORTANT--The factory book says the distance between the strut towers is 1002.2mm +-2mm (39.5"). Measured from center to center (where the shock sticks thru). We have found many cars that measure about 980mm (38.75"). This leads us to believe BMW made two slightly different unibodies. Therefore we now make two versions of our brace. Please specify model and year, and measure your car to specify the "regular" or "short" brace.
He'd never heard this before... But said he was going to investigate this and may end up trying to make a version of this lover strut tower brace to fit our "shorty" cars!
That would be AWSOME! :D
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John, yours is very nice, but I need an adjustable one since the one in the garage is fixed and needs to go back since it won't fit.
Anyone know who in the US sells this strut brace?
Preferrably at a decent price...
http://cgi.ebay.com/SPARCO-Aluminium-Strut-Brace-BMW-3-SERIES-E30-M3-2-3_W0QQitemZ4636426657QQihZ002QQcategoryZ10374QQcmdZViewItem
Don't need to pay shipping from the UK!
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You can put it between two trees and bend it little bit ;)
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Lucky Mustang boys! A strut brace that is structurally triangulated by being bolted to the firewall, not just connecting two points that are trying to move in the same direction. On a track rat it wouldn't be a problem to connect the strut towers to the lateral dash tube of the roll cage using a "W" configuration.
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If I ever turn it into a full-time track car and weld in a full cage, this is a must. But, then you are talking some $$$.
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hey guys, has anyone fitted one of these to a 318is? i've seen one for sale and need one. cheers it's made by racing dynamics for an m3 e30.
Kevo
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1219/strutfx1.jpg)
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hey guys, has anyone fitted one of these to a 318is? i've seen one for sale and need one. cheers it's made by racing dynamics for an m3 e30.
Kevo
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1219/strutfx1.jpg)
I doubt it can clear the intake manifold... but I could be wrong...
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But definately not on both sides! :(
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/IMG_5485.sized.jpg)
Just a little bit off...
You can op to send the bar back or another way is to use the E30 car jack to push the bar enuf for the bolts to slide into the holes... I did that when installing the Sparco bar for my fren's car.. Just be a bi creative and the solution will come to u...
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So I am going to be building a strut tower bar with the help of a friend of mine who is a metal fabricator. We need some help.
It looks like the best place to thread the bar through is at the very back(closest to cockpit) of the intake manifold where it is angled down slightly. Is this true?
What size tube should we use, and with that, how much space is in between the manifold and the hood?
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I doubt it can clear the intake manifold... but I could be wrong...
I have one installed on my E30 318is. Fits nicely. I had to dremel where the bar bolts to the mounts because I have the "wide" strut towers but that's it.
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So I am going to be building a strut tower bar with the help of a friend of mine who is a metal fabricator. We need some help.
It looks like the best place to thread the bar through is at the very back(closest to cockpit) of the intake manifold where it is angled down slightly. Is this true?
What size tube should we use, and with that, how much space is in between the manifold and the hood?
I would say that for tube OD I would see about 1 inch or so. Doesn't need to be super thick, possibly 1 1/4 at most. And for the plate, I would use 1/8 inch thick cold rolled steel
Also this summer I'm hoping to get some time and going to make a few of these bars.
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Alright well we started on this project. Today we got the plates fabricated, the bar will be next. I need to buy new nuts now because the top of the nut is sticking out, and on one of our holes the nut doesn't clear. Anyone know the bolt pattern on those studs?
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Anyone at all? I really need to know the thread pattern on the studs!
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Bolt Pattern? I don't understand your question :confused: Just design the plate around the strut holes....
FYI you can tap the threaded spindle out of the strut bushing and measure it or just take it with you to home depot, lowes, Fastenal etc and find a suitable replacement bolt and nut or whichever combo as you desire.
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Thread count? Thread spacing? Something like that, I can't find the word.
You can take the studs out? You just hit them from the top and they come out? Is there any way I could put bigger studs in?
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Thread count? Thread spacing? Something like that, I can't find the word.
You can take the studs out? You just hit them from the top and they come out? Is there any way I could put bigger studs in?
Yes tap them lightly from the top and the drop out from the bottom. They are splined threads so getting longer replacements isn't exactly plug and play. This diag. shows them @ part # 3
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF93&mospid=47305&btnr=31_0211&hg=31&fg=10
When I went with a Sparco bar, I needed a longer screw so I got a socket head/allen head screw bolt from Home Depot to replace mine.
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Yes tap them lightly from the top and the drop out from the bottom. They are splined threads so getting longer replacements isn't exactly plug and play. This diag. shows them @ part # 3
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF93&mospid=47305&btnr=31_0211&hg=31&fg=10
When I went with a Sparco bar, I needed a longer screw so I got a socket head/allen head screw bolt from Home Depot to replace mine.
Sweet, I'll talk to my fabricator friend and see what he thinks we can replace the stud with. How hard are they to put back in?
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FWIW, (you guys have already found some less expensive alternatives) the hinged alum bar that BMP sells fits very well. It was one of the few that fits a m10 318 and I just pulled it off that and popped it on the m42 without issue.The price on it is $195 these days.
(http://www.bmpdesign.com/images/products/26421_lg.jpg)
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Well we finished building the strut bar last night. It's pretty cool and makes a difference in handling. I'm happy with it.
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pics?
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we're happy yer happy!
pics!
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Let me go take some.
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4448/1011529ga3.jpg)
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8444/1011530sn4.jpg)
It's not polished yet. It will be polished before Bimmerfest though.
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nice work!
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It looks like a nice job, well done. Is it aluminium or steel? If it is made from steel I would be interested to buy... How much do you think it would cost?
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It's made from aluminum. The bar itself is T6 and is very very very strong. I haven't weighed this thing yet.
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we want...! how much?
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we want...! how much?
I'm with Sam on this one!
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me too that things looks nuts strong... and super clean looking too
if the price is right you can count me in
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Built Your Own Strut , It's Cheaper , You Can Use Any Materials You Like , And You Have The Pleasure To Make Your Own Performance Updates In Your Car And Not Pay Money That Go Noware ( Because When You Buy A Strut For Example Omp Half The Price Or More Is Just For The Brand And Not The Materials )
Look Mine , I Made It Myself And It Cost Me Only 20 Euro , That Is 27$
(i Have The Habbit To Built Everything My Own - I Like It - It's My Hobby , And I Feel Very Nice Knowing That Everything In My Car Is My Own...(and I Mean Everything...custom Exhaust Manifold ( Turbo ) Piping , Struts , Baquet Seats Base , Sound System , Wiring , Piggy Back Ecu , Front Bumper , Rear Bumper Diffuser , And I Am Now Fabricating Carbon Hood For Top Mount Intercooler ) It Feels Very Nice You Know...and Cost A Lot Less Than To Buy Everything Or Have It Fabricated For You....)
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owned by the caps filter ^
i follow what you're saying and all but the one posted above looks 10x more rigid and durable then yours.
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Would people really want to buy one like mine?
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yes!
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Sign me up for one too!
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oh course i would love to get my hands on one... as long as the price is right
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I weighed it today. 4 lbs.
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thats nice and light for something as beefy as that, like i said if you got a resonable price you can sign me up for sure
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I talked to my friend about making some more, and he said that he's just to busy and wouldn't want to take that much time out of his schedule.
Maybe in the future though...
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I really want!...looks super. That is probably one of the best I have seen for the M42, especially custom made and not by a major company.
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I'd love one all depends on $$$$, like everyone else! What is a reasonable price?
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I talked to my friend about making some more, and he said that he's just to busy and wouldn't want to take that much time out of his schedule.
Maybe in the future though...
.
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I bought this one:
goingfast.de's ebay unit (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300034170932)
It looks like its probably a ripoff of some of the ones on here. for $91, Im not going that fast or aggressive, and if it gies me a 10% improvement in stiffness and transfer, that will be more than enough to please me until the car rusts out. I love the car as is in terms of hiw it drives and rides.
Anyway, I just installed it today - very easy. It has a full circle at the strut mounts, so when you torque it down to 16 ft-lbs per bentley, the metal gives a little, but it is seems pretty sturdy, and can be removed easily at the strut mounts. I will determin e tomorrow on my on and offramps how much it helps.
It looks like this, as taken directly from the ebay sales page (not my car):
(http://i8.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/22/3d/4c_2.JPG)
and the one I got looks exactly like this:
(http://www.goingfast.info/04_05/ebay_sales/images/bmwe30_strutbar2.jpg)
Ill try to post an image of it installed tomorrow.
For $91, its VERY light, seems quite sturdy, can easily be removed, and is polished, so it looks pretty good. Supposedly made in Germany too...
Hope this helps,
JMH
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only problem is the hinges.
BTW wish your friend could fab up a few more of those jpod.
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only problem is the hinges.
Maybe not the most optimal design, but what do I get? 80% of optimal? 20% of optimal???
Im commuting, not driving aggressively. My 318i is the perfect commuter car because of its driving characteristics. I have taken it on numerous on and offramps now, at speed, and can feel a significant difference in lack of weight shift, as well as suspension neutrality, as compared to my up to date and perfectly maintained car previous to thsi addition.
Im so amazed by the subtle yet quite notable changes in how the car drives around corners, etc.
Couldnt be more happy!!! Even if it does have a hinge for easy removal ;)
JMH
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Notice how the Sparco mounting point that rests on the strut towers has the part that folds down and prevents all the stress from being put on the strut mount bolts. That's all I seek in a strut bar in addition to it being one piece and non-hinged :D You can also see the hole for the "3rd bolt" on that same extension.
(http://www.r3vlimited.com/gallery/files/7/5/0/3/423f8b9073156.jpg)
E --- How many / what size washers did you use, and where, to mount the Sparco brace over the M42?
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I just just did a lot of suspension work and used the Sparco Bar. I did take it to a muffler shop and had it notched. Where I got really lucky is that I used IE street/track adjustable camber plates which came with extremely long studs. I was able to bolt the plate on, put the bar on and then put another nut on top. My mechanic told me that putting the third bolt in was extremely important! So while I was at the muffler shop I had them tack in a couple of washers to eliminate the gap between the bar and the strut tower. I too was concerned about drilling the strut tower but surprisingly it is not very thick. For the third bolt I use an allen headed bolt with a small washer since it is very close to where the strut tower starts to roll.
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Have you noticed a difference in handling?
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Where did you notch it? Is it where it goes over the plenum? can you post a pic showing the notch?
Thanks
I just just did a lot of suspension work and used the Sparco Bar. I did take it to a muffler shop and had it notched. Where I got really lucky is that I used IE street/track adjustable camber plates which came with extremely long studs. I was able to bolt the plate on, put the bar on and then put another nut on top. My mechanic told me that putting the third bolt in was extremely important! So while I was at the muffler shop I had them tack in a couple of washers to eliminate the gap between the bar and the strut tower. I too was concerned about drilling the strut tower but surprisingly it is not very thick. For the third bolt I use an allen headed bolt with a small washer since it is very close to where the strut tower starts to roll.
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Here's couple of scans i did from old Hartge & Schnizer cataloques. Note Hartge also had rear strut brace.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/olli951/Strutbrace1-3.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/olli951/strutbrace2.jpg)
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I just installed these from Vorshlag Motorsports.
Fit is good, much better than the Spraco, which rubbed on my intake. No spacers needed here.
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Wow, those Vorshlag pieces look really nice.
just wish they were a bit cheaper. Seems like the m20 braces are less than $185. (rear is %165). Any noticeable difference in handling?
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Wow 318isle I really like those braces!
Im no where NEAR ready to buy strut braces yet but when I am these are what I wanna go for. What site did you get them off of and how much did you spend on both??
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Wow 318isle I really like those braces!
Im no where NEAR ready to buy strut braces yet but when I am these are what I wanna go for. What site did you get them off of and how much did you spend on both??
Thanks for the compliments!
I got them from Vorshlag Motorsports here is the link. Great site with other goodies for the E30.
http://www.vorshlag.com/?bannerID=134
I paid $394.79 for both shipped to the middle of the Pacific!
Any noticeable difference in handling?
Thanks, I haven't had a chance to really push my car to feel any difference. I won't be able to until August when I can attend our Test N Tune at Autox.
I'll say this much, if you want great customer service and a company that knows what they are doing, give them a call. Terry...owner, has responded to all my questions and emails on top of other emails and PMs he receives from others on bf.c. As he has the E36 LS1 project, which is very interesting and I'm hoping to get a kit from him when it becomes available.
I refuse to chop up my E30 318is for a transplant...it's becoming more and more rare by the day!
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i also have those strut bars, except i got them on ebay. the seller jjmtools had them listed a few years ago. i had them on my 325e for 2 and a half years and soon will be putting them on my 318is. they are definitely a very solid bar. thicker than any other strut bars i have seen. when i bought them the guy said he was hand-crafting them. i paid a total of $275 with shipping for the front and rear. looks like he found another company to do the selling for him, though.
http://www.vorshlag.com/cart/index.php?manufacturers_id=4
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I just installed these from Vorshlag Motorsports.
Fit is good, much better than the Spraco, which rubbed on my intake. No spacers needed here.
Woody - good pics. I stuck them in a gallery I just created for Mason products (since you said it was OK to use them in an e-mail earlier). If you ever want to see these pictures just link to this: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/3431917#192407439
edit: Did you ever finish bolting in the rear brace? I have some instructions located here (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/3035430).
Thanks,
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(http://www.goingfast.info/04_05/ebay_sales/images/bmwe30_strutbar2.jpg)
$91 for that strutbrace is too much, It is quite good quality. I just bought a similar from German Ebay. I paid 29€ for it. With shipping to finland it cost me 39€
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i bought mine from wiechers sport for 95 €. ( http://www.wiechers-sport.de/ )fitted with no problems at all, has a lot of space everywhere around, and has a nice full ring. :)
(http://www.zsem.hr/%7Eblezaic/318ise30/show/029.jpg)
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I just installed these from Vorshlag Motorsports.
Fit is good, much better than the Spraco, which rubbed on my intake. No spacers needed here.
Dude, these Mason Eng. pieces are BADASS. I'm gonna get me some for my C3 kit install.